Dartmouth Men's Lacrosse

[Ghost]

2. This disparity in execution is also evident when comparing the D men to their opponents. This is most glaring on offense where the men seem chaotic, mistake-prone and panicked much of the time, leading to turn overs, poor shot selection and lack of scoring. Putting defense and goalie play aside for a minute, even ignoring individual offensive player skill levels, etc., look at the D lax offense as a unit. Compare the offensive cohesion and execution of the DC men to any of their opponents. Too often, DC's offensive shortcomings, not the opponent's defense, puts the ball on the ground, or sends it the other way after a wild shot as time runs out.

The players appear to be giving a great effort. They are in shape. They fight hard. But as a whole, particularly on offense, they do not execute well. I wager many of them played better team offense on their high school teams.

I will leave to the experts to diagnose the cause(s). I really, really support the team and want them to do better, largely because the men are putting in the work. I want them to reap the rewards.

Joe Conner arrived with great expectations as Offensive Coordinator.
Had success at Bucknell.
Do they speak a different lax language at Dartmouth? The players unable to absorb his teaching? I doubt either.
The recruiting bias against Dartmouth is firmly entrenched. It will remain so, serving up middling talent, but with no less enthusiasm.
That's the BRANDING that Dartmouth Men's Lacrosse has to live with. Recruits arrive with eyes wide open.

Next year Represents first Season in 5 years, when Dartmouth will have many experienced upperclassmen starters on the field... experienced upperclassmen tend to improve execution...
that said, we will have a clear indication of the program’s effectiveness in Player Development.
Thoughts?

[check sticks]

So Check Sticks is the “expert”... He doesn’t have to name names because he’s saying ALL of the recruits for the past few years are “middling” at best, is that right? And, it sounds like you think all the incoming recruits are middling too, Check Sticks? You’ve looked at them, have you? What era did you play in at Dartmouth? Was your talent better?

NOTHING wrong with being "middling". It is what it is.

Here's the company you keep in a similar recruiting pool for Ivy-level talent. An HM mention, that's it for Dart >>
https://ivyleague.com/news/2019/5/1/men ... unced.aspx

[MDlaxfan76]

MD - fair enough, and I certainly respect your positivity and, at times, fair-minded critiques of the team, coaches and program. The posters to whom I was responding vary significantly, in my view, in terms of the degree of their negative commentary (and my reaction to it), and I probably suggested too strongly that my frustration was aimed squarely and only at b1w... It really was not so focused, but, after reading so many often-nasty posts over the past few weeks, my post was triggered by the sweeping disagreement by b1w and check sticks of Orfling's friendly and hardly debatable post. I was at the Brown game, I watched the effort and commitment the players gave to winning that game -- especially for their 6 seniors who are amazing young men -- and I saw and experienced their disappointment, indeed sadness, at falling short. Yet again. Was their effort "gallant"? By every definition of the word, yes it was! But it was not enough. The players know that effort is not always enough (especially in this league), and they are committed to overcoming this challenge by improvement -- you and I saw it this year, and I guess others did not. But that's the best the boys can do for now.

My post was meant to be a reminder that, anyone who is truly loyal to the program and its current players should, I think, choose his/her words carefully. In the players' minds -- very fairly in my opinion -- "you are either with us or against us." It's that simple. My advice is to try to craft even the more critical remarks -- as you always seem to do, MD -- around the message "I am with you guys". Given the anonymity of these kinds of boards, of course, there's no need to heed this advice, but that's what I have for now. Looking forward to 2020 as I know you and so many on this board are .. for all the right reasons! GBG

Well said Atticus.
And indeed, we're with them.
All the way.
Through thick and thin.
Even as we critique.

b1w's frustration on "fundamentals", IMO, is fair, and indeed is essential to hear (though I'd strongly suggest players should ignore these pages and stay off them, at least in season!).

However, as frustrating as it is to see bone-headed plays, sloppy exchanges, and seemingly aimless offensive off-ball motion...at times...I see the glass half full. For instance, I see a dramatic reduction in TO's from the early apart of the season to the final weeks. That doesn't happen without a combination of player attention/effort and coaching focus.

The "fundamentals", IMO, improved significantly even as competition was better.

In other words, a better team at the end of the year than at the beginning.

[MDlaxfan76]

So Check Sticks is the “expert”... He doesn’t have to name names because he’s saying ALL of the recruits for the past few years are “middling” at best, is that right? And, it sounds like you think all the incoming recruits are middling too, Check Sticks? You’ve looked at them, have you? What era did you play in at Dartmouth? Was your talent better?

NOTHING wrong with being "middling". It is what it is.

Here's the company you keep in a similar recruiting pool for Ivy-level talent. An HM mention, that's it for Dart >>
https://ivyleague.com/news/2019/5/1/men ... unced.aspx

Well, that's a travesty, Hincks should have been 2nd Team.
2nd highest saves per game, highest average. https://ivyleague.com/stats.aspx?path=mlax&year=2019

League only stats as well: https://ivyleague.com/stats.aspx?path=m ... &conf=true

But team wins is what provides room for individual honors.

And I'd remind folks that last year's All-Ivy standout was injured this year. Best defenseman, captain.

All that said, it's certainly been a challenge to overcome the resistance in the lax world to Dartmouth's men's program. Momentum is critical. The most confident go where they not only can get playing time, but also where they think they'll have a shot at winning. That's natural.

To the conversation about the women's program, they have a long tradition of winning, right from the program's outset.

[MDlaxfan76]

Joe Conner arrived with great expectations as Offensive Coordinator.
Had success at Bucknell.
Do they speak a different lax language at Dartmouth? The players unable to absorb his teaching? I doubt either.
The recruiting bias against Dartmouth is firmly entrenched. It will remain so, serving up middling talent, but with no less enthusiasm.
That's the BRANDING that Dartmouth Men's Lacrosse has to live with. Recruits arrive with eyes wide open.

Next year Represents first Season in 5 years, when Dartmouth will have many experienced upperclassmen starters on the field... experienced upperclassmen tend to improve execution...
that said, we will have a clear indication of the program’s effectiveness in Player Development.
Thoughts?

I think that's correct re the upper classmen effect.

[wahoomurf]

CHECK STICKS: Lord Tennyson, "Tis better to have laxed and lost, than never to have laxed at all"

WOW.TENNYSON? HOLY HAT! ARE YOU SURE? The version I heard..."It is better to have failed your Wassermann test,than never to have loved at all" was I thought, penned by that noted philosopher, Dr. Ruth Westheiemer.

[RumorMill]

To start off with some transparency, I am a Dartmouth Alum and participated for 4 years on a varsity team (not lacrosse). I absolutely loved my 4 years at DC and am passionate about all things Dartmouth, especially their athletic teams! Although I didn't play lacrosse, I do have a long term interest in seeing the program become competitive and successful.

With that said, I don't see b1's earlier comments as critical of individual players, rather critical of the systemic issues that have been plaguing the program. There are many comments about recruits and recruiting (myself included). I'm not saying this is an easy job... but hey, it IS THE JOB! The coaching staff needs to recruit the RIGHT players for "their program". "Program" includes A LOT of factors. The school, the geography, the coaches style of play, the current players they have and what holes they need to fill, yadda, yadda, yadda. Again, that's the job. In addition you need to be able to work with what you have and what you get.

Note: MD, that's not being critical of the current staff, that's a blanket statement that applies to all programs.

I believe this is the answer to why other Dartmouth athletic teams have been successful within the Ivy League and Nationally. To quote one of my favorite movies (Miracle)... Craig Patrick, "You're missing the best players"... Herb Brooks, "I'm not looking for the best players, Craig, I'm looking for the right ones."

Kind of off topic but have been thinking about it for awhile... It's awesome that there is investment in an new "indoor facility", but has the lax team had access to Leverone? I know it's not state of the art, but I/we used to use it in the winter to get better!

[MDlaxfan76]

To start off with some transparency, I am a Dartmouth Alum and participated for 4 years on a varsity team (not lacrosse). I absolutely loved my 4 years at DC and am passionate about all things Dartmouth, especially their athletic teams! Although I didn't play lacrosse, I do have a long term interest in seeing the program become competitive and successful.

With that said, I don't see b1's earlier comments as critical of individual players, rather critical of the systemic issues that have been plaguing the program. There are many comments about recruits and recruiting (myself included). I'm not saying this is an easy job... but hey, it IS THE JOB! The coaching staff needs to recruit the RIGHT players for "their program". "Program" includes A LOT of factors. The school, the geography, the coaches style of play, the current players they have and what holes they need to fill, yadda, yadda, yadda. Again, that's the job. In addition you need to be able to work with what you have and what you get.

Note: MD, that's not being critical of the current staff, that's a blanket statement that applies to all programs.

I believe this is the answer to why other Dartmouth athletic teams have been successful within the Ivy League and Nationally. To quote one of my favorite movies (Miracle)... Craig Patrick, "You're missing the best players"... Herb Brooks, "I'm not looking for the best players, Craig, I'm looking for the right ones."

Kind of off topic but have been thinking about it for awhile... It's awesome that there is investment in an new "indoor facility", but has the lax team had access to Leverone? I know it's not state of the art, but I/we used to use it in the winter to get better!

Yes, true of any staff. Quite agree.

And I quite agree about recruiting the 'right players'; though Brooks already had most of the 'best' players from the US already on his Olympic roster when he said that about the last couple of choices. He knew that the glue guys, the guys he could get to do what seemed impossible, were essential. But he had zero guys on that team who couldn't skate the socks off of nearly any other collection of US (non pro) players.

But, yes, need to get the very best players who will love being in Hanover and who will fully embrace all that means, including the turnaround challenge. My sense is there's no lack of the latter aspect on the 2019 team.

We just need more total guys with high lax IQ, with a few breakout players. Need a competitive FOGO badly. Need a downhill midfielder or two, need a stud attack man. Need to keep bolstering the pole corps, with upgraded stick work.

I don't think there's anything wrong with admitting that we have fewer high performance out of high school players on our roster than do our Ivy competitors. That will need to change in order to compete for titles. But it's not necessary to begin the forward momentum.

I too wouldn't put too much emphasis on the indoor facility in and of itself. It does send a message of forward momentum and will help with recruiting. And it will definitely have some impact. I recall practicing in Leverone and, frankly, it was a joke. And that was back when first games didn't happen until March, and we traveled south in order to play those early games. And our southern foes didn't start playing until February, not January.

The indoor facility provides an opportunity for the full team to be practicing full field, clearing, riding, transitions, fast breaks, as well as half field systems. I'm hoping the lighting is really good, as it's terrible in Leverone. and seeing the ball is critical for lacrosse, unlike other sports.

Trying to do that on a snow plowed outside field in February is awful, with guys freezing and unable to even hear instruction in the wind. A little of that is fine, but it's not a way to improve.

But the indoor won't solve issues, it just provides an opportunity for more purposeful practice, an opportunity to coach. The players and coaches will need to take full advantage of that opportunity.

But we don't think it will be ready for 2020 winter...though it'll be close.

[Voyuer]

I was trying to avoid posting on the D thread, as I have some opinions about the coaching situation, but I just wanted to read other people's take. However the Herb Brooks comment did have implications for The great Dartmouth hockey teams of 1978-80. DC twice made the frozen four and were the best team in the EAST. I remember them beating BC and maybe BU as well. Yet NONE of their players were even invited to try out for the OLYMPIC team. no Roscoe Grant OB Gaudet,,nobody, if I recall correctly. This was a sore point for DC Hockey at the time. We can respect the "miracle" but I am not sure we need to quote Herb Brooks on the Dartmouth page, since he "dissed" our hockey team. Anybody with a different recollection or more accurate memory please feel free to refresh my memory on those events.

[RumorMill]

The quote was just meant to express the overarching need to recruit the "RIGHT" players... If some of those happen to be the "Best", great.

Additionally, I definitely was not trying to equate or compare Dartmouth's Lax program to the "Miracle" hockey team. I certainly am not expecting a gold medal, ILT championship or NCAA championship (yet)!... we're talking about the right players to secure the FIRST Ivy League win and then work towards scratching out a .500 season, so on and so forth.

As a follow up to the Leverone comment... I think anyone that's spent time there will agree, not state of the art. However, MD, you just stated that "upgraded stick work" was an area where improvement was needed. That can definitely be achieved there. How about Man Down D and EMO... both can very effectively be worked on and fine tuned, Face Off's and wing play on face offs, etc. This goes back to effectively being able to utilize the resources you have, both players and facilities.

I know... easily stated from my comfy chair and computer! Looking forward to seeing what DC can put together for next year and hoping for some positive impact by the new recruits!

[DCIII]

Need a competitive FOGO badly. Need a downhill midfielder or two, need a stud attack man. Need to keep bolstering the pole corps, with upgraded stick work.

I have said the EXACT same in the past.

I am not trying to be critical, I am trying to be analytical so that WE (coaches, players, alums, parents) can all DO BETTER!

FOGO - 2 FOGO recruits in the last 5 years (one sent to the Woods). 2 FOGO recruits coming next year. To be very BLUNT, I will not get excited until I see a FOGO recruit from a top HS Team/League who has started for 2-3 years and who has battled the BEST, because that is what other IVY teams are getting and that is ironically what we sent to the Woods.

Downhill Midfielder - why have old #2 and current #17 never been given the green light? Our middies take far fewer shots than our competitors (%wise) and it is well known by those competitors. Just ask an IVY foe/friend for the Dartmouth scouting report and it will tell you A LOT.

Stud Attack Men - or a CLEAR QB/Feeder/Finisher delineations. Far too many unassisted goals (roughly 55% assisted)...this should be much more like 65%. Again I refer you to the Dartmouth scouting report.

Pole Corps - I find it very enlightening that the two Ivy recognized players (past and present) are also two of our smallest poles. We have gone way too big at this position and have overemphasized bulk and excessive strength; by my estimate 2" and 15-20lbs versus the competition. I would take the length and leave the bulk and take neither at the expense of stick skills or quickness.

[check sticks]

FOGO - 2 FOGO recruits in the last 5 years (one sent to the Woods). 2 FOGO recruits coming next year. To be very BLUNT, I will not get excited until I see a FOGO recruit from a top HS Team/League who has started for 2-3 years and who has battled the BEST, because that is what other IVY teams are getting and that is ironically what we sent to the Woods.

Here's an old 2016 article written by that windbag from Upper Valley News:
https://www.vnews.com/Sports/Dartmouth/ ... 16-1398912

Faceoff issues mentioned in that very article, amidst other recruiting forecasting from AD Sheehy and HC Callahan. The departure of Greco was noted. But neither he, or Auteri in the following season, made much face-off impact. Not sure who you specifically reference "sent to the Woods" (but DM if you care to elaborate).

4 years down the road from that article. Still trying to piece this puzzle together.

GBG

[MDlaxfan76]

The quote was just meant to express the overarching need to recruit the "RIGHT" players... If some of those happen to be the "Best", great.

Additionally, I definitely was not trying to equate or compare Dartmouth's Lax program to the "Miracle" hockey team. I certainly am not expecting a gold medal, ILT championship or NCAA championship (yet)!... we're talking about the right players to secure the FIRST Ivy League win and then work towards scratching out a .500 season, so on and so forth.

As a follow up to the Leverone comment... I think anyone that's spent time there will agree, not state of the art. However, MD, you just stated that "upgraded stick work" was an area where improvement was needed. That can definitely be achieved there. How about Man Down D and EMO... both can very effectively be worked on and fine tuned, Face Off's and wing play on face offs, etc. This goes back to effectively being able to utilize the resources you have, both players and facilities.

I know... easily stated from my comfy chair and computer! Looking forward to seeing what DC can put together for next year and hoping for some positive impact by the new recruits!

My recollection of what space we were allocated in Leverone was that it was too small to practice much of anything. Some line drills, sure, some half field but very cramped. Certainly no longer, much less cross field passes. And getting any decent time slots was always a challenge. It needed to serve all the needs of all the sports, including intramurals. Track running on the outside, nets separating pieces of field on the inside. Terrible lighting makes working on stick work challenging...but then I was a goalie and the lighting made a ton of difference for me.

But a little cheese with that whine, it was better than nothing.

Back then most of our competitors had little better, now they do. And the season is earlier, with the non-Ivies getting a full month jump, plus much more fall practice time too.

The indoor facility will definitely help with pre-season and bad weather preparation. But that's obviously just one element.

[Ghost]

FOGO - 2 FOGO recruits in the last 5 years (one sent to the Woods). 2 FOGO recruits coming next year. To be very BLUNT, I will not get excited until I see a FOGO recruit from a top HS Team/League who has started for 2-3 years and who has battled the BEST, because that is what other IVY teams are getting and that is ironically what we sent to the Woods.

Here's an old 2016 article written by that windbag from Upper Valley News:
https://www.vnews.com/Sports/Dartmouth/ ... 16-1398912

Faceoff issues mentioned in that very article, amidst other recruiting forecasting from AD Sheehy and HC Callahan. The departure of Greco was noted. But neither he, or Auteri in the following season, made much face-off impact. Not sure who you specifically reference "sent to the Woods" (but DM if you care to elaborate).

4 years down the road from that article. Still trying to piece this puzzle together.

GBG

Re:2016 article references 15-5 loss to Yale - Dartmouth’s 2019 squad would have loved winning 17/23 FOs...

[Bandito]

Dartmouth is a great school with fantastic spirit. Every kid is blessed to be there. There's more to life than wins and losses on the lacrosse field.

LOL! Sums up the victim mentality pretty good here. It is pretty simple as to why DC is bad. There are a lot better options to play lacrosse and go to school.

Dear Frito,
Thank you for taking the time off from spewing your political venom to visit the Dartmouth lacrosse site.
Your analysis is bold and insightful.
Now back to your regularly scheduled targets.

GBG

Yawn. Disagree all you want but I nailed it as to why DC isn’t good at lacrosse. Lots of better options for school and lax.

[MDlaxfan76]

In order to get past Admissions, with an athletic slot, you need to be within 2 standard deviations of the mean. At the low end, you certainly don't need to be a rocket scientist. But you can tie your own shoes.

There's no such requirement to be a troll on social media.

[admin]

Bandito, I'm unsure if your post(s) are penalties (though they could easily be Unsportsmanlike Behavior) but they are most certainly obnoxious. Bandito, chill.

[renault]

Tommy Rogan, a 2 sport star at Chaminade H.S. (Mineola, Long Island,N.Y.),is heading to Hanover. Many thought he'd go to Yale where his father played quarter back for Cozza. Moreover,Shay and Moran are on each other's speed dial.And there's always a few Chaminade guys on the Yale team.Nonetheless he chose Dartmouth.

Perhaps Callahan can develop a similar pipeline to Dartmouth as the one Yale/Shay has developed with Moran. Rogan,a great student-athlete and a terrific young man,is the type of young man to start the flow.

Rogan had six goals today in Chaminade's 15-7 win over Manhasset.

[Ghost]

Tommy Rogan, a 2 sport star at Chaminade H.S. (Mineola, Long Island,N.Y.),is heading to Hanover. Many thought he'd go to Yale where his father played quarter back for Cozza. Moreover,Shay and Moran are on each other's speed dial.And there's always a few Chaminade guys on the Yale team.Nonetheless he chose Dartmouth.

Perhaps Callahan can develop a similar pipeline to Dartmouth as the one Yale/Shay has developed with Moran. Rogan,a great student-athlete and a terrific young man,is the type of young man to start the flow.

Rogan had six goals today in Chaminade's 15-7 win over Manhasset.

Speaking of Chaminade- maybe we can learn a lesson from their Change in philosophy:
This was the first year Chaminade ditched the ball control offense - and boys were not afraid to shoot or make mistakes.
DC may consider same strategy- (great goalie, depth on Defense, and a serious need to produce goals)...
Thoughts From insiders?

[Ghost]

Tommy Rogan, a 2 sport star at Chaminade H.S. (Mineola, Long Island,N.Y.),is heading to Hanover. Many thought he'd go to Yale where his father played quarter back for Cozza. Moreover,Shay and Moran are on each other's speed dial.And there's always a few Chaminade guys on the Yale team.Nonetheless he chose Dartmouth.

Perhaps Callahan can develop a similar pipeline to Dartmouth as the one Yale/Shay has developed with Moran. Rogan,a great student-athlete and a terrific young man,is the type of young man to start the flow.

Rogan had six goals today in Chaminade's 15-7 win over Manhasset.

Speaking of Chaminade- maybe we can learn a lesson from their Change in philosophy:
This was the first year Chaminade ditched the ball control offense - and boys were not afraid to shoot or make mistakes.
DC may consider same strategy- (great goalie, depth on Defense, and a serious need to produce goals)...
Thoughts From insiders?