Trump's Russian Collusion

[dislaxxic]

Mueller Did His Investigation for a World We Don’t Inhabit Dahlia Lithwick weighs in...

"His report was predicated on caring about facts. Our world is about who can claim victory the quickest."

The real tragedy of the Barr report is that he has facts at his fingertips—not just facts about the ways in which members of the Trump campaign acted inappropriately and then lied about it, which we all know, but also facts about obstruction that we do not yet know. But like Fox News had done a day before, Barr gave us spin in lieu of facts while asking us to believe that they are the same thing.

[snip]

In a world in which facts really mattered, the notion that Republicans “won” and Democrats “lost” the Mueller report, based on an incomplete summary that drew hasty conclusions without showing any work, would be laughable. Especially if the author of that summary auditioned for his job by claiming that presidential obstruction of justice couldn’t ever be a real thing, anyway. William Barr could write his letter in 46 hours because he had always known what it was going to say.

We do not live in a black-and-white world. The answer is not that Trump either did nothing wrong or committed massive crimes for which he can be removed from office. Mueller’s report—were we ever to inspect it—appears to have split the difference, and delivered its findings in nuanced shades of gray. But at this point, it almost doesn’t matter whether we can inspect it. The lines are drawn and the legal questions have been answered, not with findings but with political sides retreating to partisanship—one side says the president is cleared (and is now doubling down on attacking the press and the Justice Department) and the other side looks at the brick wall it is facing and concedes that maybe it’s not worth it, anyway. This has been the state of play for years now. The biggest question just might be why we expected anything else.

..

[old salt]

Mueller had at his disposal the entire investigative & surveillance capabilities of the US govt & our allies. Yet after now 3 yrs of surveillance & spying, he could find no evidence of espionage or conspiracy with Russia. He had intel so refined he could id the work station of each Russian he indicted. But he couldn't find a communication link with Trump ?

"did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities"

That's all we got from Mueller on collusion. So you changed "did not establish" to "found no evidence." (And I have no idea where you got anything about espionage). Right there, a perfect example of how Barr's Saucy Summary has facilitated a whole bunch of really bad analysis and partisan spin (Randy, I will be charitable and assume yours is the intentional variety). I would be willing to bet that the next word after the above quote in Mueller's report is "However . . ." Any takers?

https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/what-is- ... onsibility

What is the FBI’s foreign counterintelligence responsibility?
As the country’s lead counterintelligence agency, the FBI is responsible for detecting and lawfully countering actions of foreign intelligence services and organizations that employ human and technical means to gather information about the U.S. that adversely affects our national interests. Our investigations include foreign and economic espionage, or “spying” activities, that may involve the acquisition of classified, sensitive, or proprietary information from the U.S. government or U.S. companies. The FBI investigates whenever a foreign entity conducts clandestine intelligence activities in the United States. Our counterintelligence investigations also help combat international terrorist threats, including those involving weapons of mass destruction and attacks on critical infrastructures.

[jhu72]

I Barr is lying in his memo, would Mueller not speak up and say something? I can not imagine Mueller would not want to clear his name of falsehoods, especially if he has documented such things in his 2 year investigation.

If Barr was telling the absolute inconvertible truth, in the interest of putting this behind us would Barr not have asked Mueller to make a joint statement? Would Mueller not agree to that request?? This has not happened.

Barr is trying to spin and obfuscate, or Mueller would have put his name on the Barr document, made a joint release -- as was alluded to by Barr in his Friday written statement.

Mueller is a very measured individual. He is in no hurry. He is not going to come out and say Barr is lying - he will not use those words.

Barr is going to testify before congress. Once that is done, Mueller will be given his chance to have his say in congress. I would guess both will be open hearings.

[runrussellrun]

Does this mean the Mueller CAN coach the U13 select team ? Now that he's done?

[frmanfan]

I would think Mueller would ask Comey to leak to the NYT or WaPo if he was misinterpreted.

[youthathletics]

I Barr is lying in his memo, would Mueller not speak up and say something? I can not imagine Mueller would not want to clear his name of falsehoods, especially if he has documented such things in his 2 year investigation.

If Barr was telling the absolute inconvertible truth, in the interest of putting this behind us would Barr not have asked Mueller to make a joint statement? Would Mueller not agree to that request?? This has not happened.

Barr is trying to spin and obfuscate, or Mueller would have put his name on the Barr document, made a joint release -- as was alluded to by Barr in his Friday written statement.

Mueller is a very measured individual. He is in no hurry. He is not going to come out and say Barr is lying - he will not use those words.

Barr is going to testify before congress. Once that is done, Mueller will be given his chance to have his say in congress. I would guess both will be open hearings.

Barr should not need Mueller to help any further. To my point, if Barr is misrepresenting Mueller, there is no reason Mueller could not open up about it. Maybe Mueller is waiting for his Dossier to be cleaned and scrubbed, before he opens his mouth and says Barr is correct.

[a fan]

The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming...& they'll bring us another Stanley Cup.

+1

You guys get to make fun---but only to a point.

You're both (all) ignoring that the Trump team TRIED to collude with Russia.

The met with Butina in that hotel, looking for dirt on Hillary. All Butina had to do is give them one single piece of dirt on Hillary that wasn't publicly available, and boom, that's conspiracy. Remember when the FBI rep was in Congress and said of Butina's request for a meeting, "I'd like to think that the first thing they'd do is call us".

The conspiracy charge was a whisker away from being true.

And btw, we only have the word of those present in the meeting that Butina didn't hand them Russian intel.


You should be horrified by that meeting. Instead, we're in Trumpland where the ONLY thing that matters is: stick it to the libs.


And the residents of Trumpland have NEVER been this happy.

[frmanfan]

That's fine, but let us recall the origin of the Steele Dossier. Not one foreigner offering services to the Clinton campaign but multiple foreign actors (through lawyers of course, she is too smart to get her hand caught in the cookie jar).

[old salt]

I Barr is lying in his memo, would Mueller not speak up and say something? I can not imagine Mueller would not want to clear his name of falsehoods, especially if he has documented such things in his 2 year investigation.

If Barr was telling the absolute inconvertible truth, in the interest of putting this behind us would Barr not have asked Mueller to make a joint statement? Would Mueller not agree to that request?? This has not happened.

Barr is trying to spin and obfuscate, or Mueller would have put his name on the Barr document, made a joint release -- as was alluded to by Barr in his Friday written statement.

Mueller is a very measured individual. He is in no hurry. He is not going to come out and say Barr is lying - he will not use those words.

Barr is going to testify before congress. Once that is done, Mueller will be given his chance to have his say in congress. I would guess both will be open hearings.

.. Mueller could have said whatever he wanted to say in his report.
He is unassailable. Above reproach.
He chose to punt.

[foreverlax]

I Barr is lying in his memo, would Mueller not speak up and say something? I can not imagine Mueller would not want to clear his name of falsehoods, especially if he has documented such things in his 2 year investigation.

If Barr was telling the absolute inconvertible truth, in the interest of putting this behind us would Barr not have asked Mueller to make a joint statement? Would Mueller not agree to that request?? This has not happened.

Barr is trying to spin and obfuscate, or Mueller would have put his name on the Barr document, made a joint release -- as was alluded to by Barr in his Friday written statement.

Mueller is a very measured individual. He is in no hurry. He is not going to come out and say Barr is lying - he will not use those words.

Barr is going to testify before congress. Once that is done, Mueller will be given his chance to have his say in congress. I would guess both will be open hearings.

.. Mueller could have said whatever he wanted to say in his report.
He is unassailable. Above reproach.
He chose to punt.

Lucky for him....

[old salt]

The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming...& they'll bring us another Stanley Cup.

+1

You guys get to make fun---but only to a point.

You're both (all) ignoring that the Trump team TRIED to collude with Russia.

The met with Butina in that hotel, looking for dirt on Hillary. All Butina had to do is give them one single piece of dirt on Hillary that wasn't publicly available, and boom, that's conspiracy. Remember when the FBI rep was in Congress and said of Butina's request for a meeting, "I'd like to think that the first thing they'd do is call us".

The conspiracy charge was a whisker away from being true.

And btw, we only have the word of those present in the meeting that Butina didn't hand them Russian intel.


You should be horrified by that meeting. Instead, we're in Trumpland where the ONLY thing that matters is: stick it to the libs.


And the residents of Trumpland have NEVER been this happy.

Conspiracy charge a whisker away from being true ? If there's no whiskers, there's no beard.

Maybe Butina was a freelancing wannabe, like Stone, Manafort & Gates, all trying to get in on the action of a Trump candidacy or Presidency.

All but nut job Stone co-operated. Mueller's squeezed then for everything they've got.
We're not in what if territory anymore. Mueller's done & no more indictments. Let it go.

[Nigel]

Classic - "Let It Go"

[ggait]

There's no reason why the report can't be released. Easy to scrub it of grand jury and intelligence items. Look at all the indictments and other filings Mueller has publicly released. Also no reason why Mueller and Barr can't be asked to explain why Mueller demurred on obstruction and Barr did not.

It is going to take some time to really know what Barr/Rosenstein/Mueller are up to here. First, they'll testify. Second, some version of the report will go to Congress and to the public. Third, possible additional shoes may (or may not) be dropped from various USAOs that Mueller handed things off to.

#3 is really the total wild card/black box in this. Looks like Mueller was aggressively handing things off throughout his whole tenure (like the Cohen case). So while Mueller has wound up his work, TBD what happens to his hand-off cases.

For example, what is the deal with all those sealed indictments sitting on the docket in USDC and EDVA? Barr says that there are no sealed indictments "obtained by Mueller." So does that mean those all are completely unrelated to this? Or could they be related but "obtained" and coming from USAOs on cases Mueller handed off? I have no clue.

I think the only thing we know for sure is that Trump isn't going to be impeached before the 2020 election. That's a perfectly good outcome for me.

[jhu72]

I Barr is lying in his memo, would Mueller not speak up and say something? I can not imagine Mueller would not want to clear his name of falsehoods, especially if he has documented such things in his 2 year investigation.

If Barr was telling the absolute inconvertible truth, in the interest of putting this behind us would Barr not have asked Mueller to make a joint statement? Would Mueller not agree to that request?? This has not happened.

Barr is trying to spin and obfuscate, or Mueller would have put his name on the Barr document, made a joint release -- as was alluded to by Barr in his Friday written statement.

Mueller is a very measured individual. He is in no hurry. He is not going to come out and say Barr is lying - he will not use those words.

Barr is going to testify before congress. Once that is done, Mueller will be given his chance to have his say in congress. I would guess both will be open hearings.

Barr should not need Mueller to help any further. To my point, if Barr is misrepresenting Mueller, there is no reason Mueller could not open up about it. Maybe Mueller is waiting for his Dossier to be cleaned and scrubbed, before he opens his mouth and says Barr is correct.

Barr does not need Mueller any further, unless Barr is interested in convincing 50%+ of the population that he is not lying. Like you ("Barr doesn't need Mueller") I think Barr is not interested in convincing the 50%+ of the population who doesn't believe him. His Summary Report was designed to convince no one with questions, just convince Orange Duce's base that they had closure.

They don't really have closure, it is not really over. There is the game that will be played out in the courts over the release of the Mueller report. The more difficult Barr makes for the report to find its way to congress, the more it looks like a cover up. His first gambit will be to cherry pick the report and release it; his second gambit will be making bogus grand jury and security claims. This goes to the courts. I suspect he will ultimately be unsuccessful. It is a delaying tactic. Previous independent counsels / investigators / whatever you want to call them have all set the precedent that in this situation the report goes to congress in its entirety! No nonsense about security, grand jury confidential information. etc.

Then there is November 4th 2019. Where Roger Stone will go on trial and the background narrative is all about the Trump Campaign - Roger Stone - Wikileaks (Russian Government agent according to US IC) communication channel.

Nope, the Mueller investigation and its ramifications is not over by a long shot. More popcorn please.

PS - DOJ just announced they will release a sanitized version of the report in "weeks not months". -- gambit #1

[wahoomurf]

Let’s remember that the left assured us mueller was an honest man as well as a bulldog and would leave no stone unturned by the time he was done this investigation.

And the right claimed Veteran and lifelong Republican Mueller was a treasonous money grubber that was breaking laws to go after Trump.

And shockingly, we find out in the end that both the American left and the American right were turned into drooling morons by this whole episode, and neither "side" was right.

Frankly, the left and right should get well earned timeouts for the next election...and be forced to sit in the corner and think about how poorly they behaved over the last 3 years. Let the moderates run things for a while.

Cosmo. Why on earth did you listen to any assurances on any topic from THE LEFT? I suspect you hold THE LEFT responsible for the treatment you received at the Yale Divinity School.You knew better.So you have no one to blame but yourself. Man up!

[cradleandshoot]

The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming...& they'll bring us another Stanley Cup.

+1

You guys get to make fun---but only to a point.

You're both (all) ignoring that the Trump team TRIED to collude with Russia.

The met with Butina in that hotel, looking for dirt on Hillary. All Butina had to do is give them one single piece of dirt on Hillary that wasn't publicly available, and boom, that's conspiracy. Remember when the FBI rep was in Congress and said of Butina's request for a meeting, "I'd like to think that the first thing they'd do is call us".

The conspiracy charge was a whisker away from being true.

And btw, we only have the word of those present in the meeting that Butina didn't hand them Russian intel.


You should be horrified by that meeting. Instead, we're in Trumpland where the ONLY thing that matters is: stick it to the libs.


And the residents of Trumpland have NEVER been this happy.

Your conclusion a Fan is that the HRC people also did nothing to collude with the Russians. That warm fuzzy feeling they got from that reset button. Why the double standard a Fan? HRC was trying to do the same gosh darn thing the Trump people were trying to do. Are you upset that the Trump people were better scam artists than the Clinton people were? I am reminded of that line in the movie The Sting, where Lonigan spouts out what was I suppose to do? Admit he was a better cheater than me... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l78zVfhUYzM https://imgflip.com/gif/21fkfr

[a fan]

That's fine, but let us recall the origin of the Steele Dossier. Not one foreigner offering services to the Clinton campaign but multiple foreign actors (through lawyers of course, she is too smart to get her hand caught in the cookie jar).

Speaks to my point: instead of gloating "gotcha" to the libs------what are we doing to keep that from happening again? Any new laws protecting our elections? Why is it legal to get foreign intel on a political opponent?

Or how about a total and complete review of our FISA system? Nope. Or doing anything to simplify systems, making it easier to find leakers of classified info? No one is even TALKING about doing that. Why?

Because "the libs have egg on their face", which in 2019 is the same thing as governing.

The underlying problems are still there. All of them.

[a fan]

Your conclusion a Fan is that the HRC people also did nothing to collude with the Russians.

I'm upset that both the hotel meeting and the hiring of a foreign firm for campaign are legal activities. I've said that this whole time. You can find as much in the archives.

Only difference between the two is that Hill is now a civilian, and can't hurt me or my family anymore. Trump can.

See my above post. I would have been overjoyed to see someone jailed for both these activities.

[a fan]

Conspiracy charge a whisker away from being true ? If there's no whiskers, there's no beard.

Maybe Butina was a freelancing wannabe, like Stone, Manafort & Gates, all trying to get in on the action of a Trump candidacy or Presidency

Riiiiiight. Just a small town Russian girl, meeting with the staff of the Republican nominee for President. Looking for a summer internship.

Come on.

We're not in what if territory anymore. Mueller's done & no more indictments. Let it go.

If you want to hang your hat on "that's not illegal", we'll have nothing to discuss here at the new Water Cooler.

If Butina gave them something, that's it. Game over. Trumps toadies are lucky she didn't.

[cradleandshoot]

Your conclusion a Fan is that the HRC people also did nothing to collude with the Russians.

I'm upset that both the hotel meeting and the hiring of a foreign firm for campaign are legal activities. I've said that this whole time. You can find as much in the archives.

Only difference between the two is that Hill is now a civilian, and can't hurt me or my family anymore. Trump can.

See my above post. I would have been overjoyed to see someone jailed for both these activities.

In both cases the individuals in question apparently will never be held accountable for what they may allegedly have done. There is one interesting factor that separates the two. HRC was part of a highly skilled machine that knew all the ins and outs about how to game the system. DJT was a dumb cluck political novice with zero acceptance from republicans or democrats in DC. Somehow he was equally as adept as the Clinton machine in the art of political subterfuge. That is like me deciding that tomorrow I will make bathtub gin and do it better than the Leopold brothers ever could. That ain't gonna happen ever...