THE 2019 Hopkins Lacrosse Fallout Shelter (44, we want more!)

[runrussellrun]

Coach gets caught up in game situations and chatting it up with the refs to notice the clock.

When was the last time Hopkins had a first team all american?

30 years......2 championships . Nothing is wrong.

[Homer]

When was the last time Hopkins had a first team all american?

364 days ago.

Seriously, it's like basic trolling play has gone way downhill around here. Does nobody teach fundamentals anymore?

[DocBarrister]

When was the last time Hopkins had a first team all american?

364 days ago.

Seriously, it's like basic trolling play has gone way downhill around here. Does nobody teach fundamentals anymore?

Very true. Do you think Hopkins is simply failing to attract top trolling recruits like in the ol’ days, or are the folks trolling Hopkins just not putting the extra effort in? Is it possible that early troll recruiting is having an effect? I mean ... just because an 8th grader is an excellent troll, doesn’t mean he’ll be a top troll when he grows up. Plus, you can always miss the late bloomers. And what the heck is President Daniels doing about this?!?

DocBarrister (concerned)

[DougELax]

When was the last time Hopkins had a first team all american?

364 days ago.

Seriously, it's like basic trolling play has gone way downhill around here. Does nobody teach fundamentals anymore?

Very true. Do you think Hopkins is simply failing to attract top trolling recruits like in the ol’ days, or are the folks trolling Hopkins just not putting the extra effort in? Is it possible that early troll recruiting is having an effect? I mean ... just because an 8th grader is an excellent troll, doesn’t mean he’ll be a top troll when he grows up. Plus, you can always miss the late bloomers. And what the heck is President Daniels doing about this?!?

DocBarrister (concerned)

Thank goodness early recruiting has been stopped. Now the trolls will have time to mature before posting on here. You can't just cherry pick the one of two examples of early commits that have always wanted to troll Hopkins and were good at it as well.

[steel_hop]

When was the last time Hopkins had a first team all american?

364 days ago.

Seriously, it's like basic trolling play has gone way downhill around here. Does nobody teach fundamentals anymore?

It isn't exactly the worst question. Obviously, Tinney was 1st team AA last year. But, how about the next time? It was Durkin in 2012 and 2013.

The last time Hopkins had 2 guys make the 1st team AA team was in 2011 - Ranagan and Dolente.

The last time Hopkins had a guy make 1st team AA attackman was Kyle Barrie back in 2003. (You can argue that Brown should have made 1st team in 2015 but he didn't). It doesn't look that much better as 2nd team AA. Last time that happened was Conor Ford and Barrie back in 2004. Last time a Hopkins attackman made 3rd team AA was in 2008 - Kevin Huntley.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

When was the last time Hopkins had a first team all american?

364 days ago.

Seriously, it's like basic trolling play has gone way downhill around here. Does nobody teach fundamentals anymore?

Not worthy of being called a troll. An utter disgrace to his family heritage, under a bridge.

The Ignore Foe Button is your friend.

Exactly!

[primitiveskills]

When was the last time Hopkins had a first team all american?

364 days ago.

Seriously, it's like basic trolling play has gone way downhill around here. Does nobody teach fundamentals anymore?

It isn't exactly the worst question. Obviously, Tinney was 1st team AA last year. But, how about the next time? It was Durkin in 2012 and 2013.

The last time Hopkins had 2 guys make the 1st team AA team was in 2011 - Ranagan and Dolente.

The last time Hopkins had a guy make 1st team AA attackman was Kyle Barrie back in 2003. (You can argue that Brown should have made 1st team in 2015 but he didn't). It doesn't look that much better as 2nd team AA. Last time that happened was Conor Ford and Barrie back in 2004. Last time a Hopkins attackman made 3rd team AA was in 2008 - Kevin Huntley.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Epstein will break that streak at attack in the next couple of years.

[HopFan16]

Foley (2nd team) and Epstein (3rd team) gives us two guys in the top 3 teams (not counting HM), which is more than Notre Dame, who just owned us. So the number of All-Americans obviously doesn't tell the whole story.

Barring a health setback Epstein should be there his whole career. Foley, if he comes back, could be as well. The question is if there's anyone currently on the roster or coming in the fall who can join them as "elite players" vying for All-American honors. Some people who frequent this thread think that the only difference between a blowout loss in the first round and making the Final Four is just one or two more of these elite players. I'm not so sure but maybe it's true.

So again, is there anyone who can make that jump and take us over the hump? Based on pure potential I believe that Evan Zinn can be an elite All-American midfielder but that would require the coaches actually let him play. I don't really see anyone else, unfortunately. Forry if he plays full-time attack and has a nice year might be able to score enough goals for HM consideration. Cole was an HM last year so we know he's capable but the question with him is whether or not that's where he's going to max out as or if he can make another leap as a senior. If Cole can become a 60-65 pt guy instead of a 45-50 then that'd make a pretty big difference I think and make up for some of the lack of midfield production.

I've seen a lot of excuses for the outgoing sr class and the program or attacks on the fans. I've not seen from them point by point solutions (and I'm probably forgetting a few) either on the roster or with incoming kids that make you think next year will not be more of the same.

Namely
-lack of midfield dodgers.
-the clustermess that was connor desimone
-the inability of the goaltender to stop shots
-the endless playing time handed out to ineffective or poor performing veterans
-the struggles at ssdm
-the struggles with wing play
-the inability to stop 5+goal runs by opposing offenses
-emotional meltdowns by sr leaders in key areas of games.
-a defense that was 58th in the nation and surrendered about 100 more goals than the 2013 team that did not even make the ncaa tournament.
-a team not prepared mentally to play 60 minutes or physically and fell from 38th to 55th in gbs (this is a perennial problem and makes you wonder what the strength/conditioning program is).

Nobody is making "excuses" for anyone. Yes, as a class their results on the field were disappointing. 0 Final Fours, 1 quarterfinal, 1 Big Ten championship. Nobody is thrilled with that, least of all the players. But you keep picking on these kids with insults as if they personally wronged you. You're still going after DeSimone? Really? Just give it a rest. You're not giving anybody new information. Continuing to harp on the same things over and over again in such a callous way is certainly not going to help the Blue Jays win games, I can tell you that much. If you want to be miserable that's on you, but as long as there is lacrosse to play and Blue Jays to play it I will be interested in the next iteration of the team no matter who is coaching or how much the AD is perceived as being invested in the program.

[Sagittarius A*]

In addition to Zinn, Matt Narewski could ascend to elite midfielder status as a FOGO. Considering how well he did against Arceri as a frosh you’d have to think that he has a ton of upside. Perhaps there were some other good freshmen sitting on the bench this season who could contribute in the future like Mabbett. I can see Forry headed back to attack next year so maybe we’ll see a shake up in the midfield lines in 2020. The reason for hope is that this team took PSU into OT. How many teams did that in 2019? I agree that Kuhn and Foley are huge losses but the the area of the team with the most depth is the poles. No replacement for Foley on the roster but with good cumulative play they could perhaps compensate in a glass half full view.

[tech37]

The reason for hope is that this team took PSU into OT. How many teams did that in 2019?

Enigma...how did this team play at that level (including the two Terp games) and then look mediocre in Qtrs vs Irish? The spark they showed in prior three games was not there vs ND.

[steel_hop]

Foley (2nd team) and Epstein (3rd team) gives us two guys in the top 3 teams (not counting HM), which is more than Notre Dame, who just owned us. So the number of All-Americans obviously doesn't tell the whole story.

I agree that placing guys on the AA teams doesn't tell the entire story. There are lots of factors that go into it from politics, preseason rankings, etc. But, getting guys on the AA teams is certainly a factor in being recognized as a good. Except for Yale (Ierlan), every team still playing this weekend had 2 guys make first team AA. Again, except for Yale (with 3), every final four team had at least 4 guys make 1st, 2nd or 3rd*

This is probably obvious but if you have good players, your team is likely going to be good.

*This is from the USILA list. There are probably differences in other teams like IL or UA.

[HopFan16]

In addition to Zinn, Matt Narewski could ascend to elite midfielder status as a FOGO. Considering how well he did against Arceri as a frosh you’d have to think that he has a ton of upside. Perhaps there were some other good freshmen sitting on the bench this season who could contribute in the future like Mabbett. I can see Forry headed back to attack next year so maybe we’ll see a shake up in the midfield lines in 2020. The reason for hope is that this team took PSU into OT. How many teams did that in 2019? I agree that Kuhn and Foley are huge losses but the the area of the team with the most depth is the poles. No replacement for Foley on the roster but with good cumulative play they could perhaps compensate in a glass half full view.

Word on the street is that Foley is likely to return next season with a final year of eligibility. Until the school confirms it publicly there's always a chance it goes sideways but it certainly seems to be heading in that direction based on what I've heard. Still, that only postpones the worry over replacing him—along with the entire starting close D unit—to 2021 instead of 2020.

I like what I saw from Narewski—too early to call him a future All-American but he showed a lot as a freshman. But with Prouty there as well it's unclear if he'll ever get to be more than the 1B to Prouty's 1A, or vice versa. I guess if they're both good it doesn't really matter. They will need a lot more help from the wings next year especially with Kuhn gone. Hubler, Reinson, and Zinn return. I like Zinn in that spot and I think if he puts the work in, becoming a Ryan Conrad-type do-it-all middie is not out of his range of outcomes in the near future but on the flip side if the staff really does let him play more on offense next year, does that mean we'll see him less on the wings? If so that's another available spot. If I'm an underclassman or an incoming freshman with an unclear path to playing time, I'd be making it my priority to become a master GB guy on the wing. That is a place this team has needed help unfortunately for many years now.

Goalie and SSDM play are still the two biggest priorities, IMO. Midfield size/athleticism would be one but barring a huge transfer or one or two of these freshmen being shockingly different than what we expect I just can't see how that changes unless there is virtually a wholesale depth chart adjustment and based on everything we know about this coaching staff I'm not going out on a limb by saying that's unlikely to happen.

[houndace1]

In addition to Zinn, Matt Narewski could ascend to elite midfielder status as a FOGO. Considering how well he did against Arceri as a frosh you’d have to think that he has a ton of upside. Perhaps there were some other good freshmen sitting on the bench this season who could contribute in the future like Mabbett. I can see Forry headed back to attack next year so maybe we’ll see a shake up in the midfield lines in 2020. The reason for hope is that this team took PSU into OT. How many teams did that in 2019? I agree that Kuhn and Foley are huge losses but the the area of the team with the most depth is the poles. No replacement for Foley on the roster but with good cumulative play they could perhaps compensate in a glass half full view.

Word on the street is that Foley is likely to return next season with a final year of eligibility. Until the school confirms it publicly there's always a chance it goes sideways but it certainly seems to be heading in that direction based on what I've heard. Still, that only postpones the worry over replacing him—along with the entire starting close D unit—to 2021 instead of 2020.

I like what I saw from Narewski—too early to call him a future All-American but he showed a lot as a freshman. But with Prouty there as well it's unclear if he'll ever get to be more than the 1B to Prouty's 1A, or vice versa. I guess if they're both good it doesn't really matter. They will need a lot more help from the wings next year especially with Kuhn gone. Hubler, Reinson, and Zinn return. I like Zinn in that spot and I think if he puts the work in, becoming a Ryan Conrad-type do-it-all middie is not out of his range of outcomes in the near future but on the flip side if the staff really does let him play more on offense next year, does that mean we'll see him less on the wings? If so that's another available spot. If I'm an underclassman or an incoming freshman with an unclear path to playing time, I'd be making it my priority to become a master GB guy on the wing. That is a place this team has needed help unfortunately for many years now.

Goalie and SSDM play are still the two biggest priorities, IMO. Midfield size/athleticism would be one but barring a huge transfer or one or two of these freshmen being shockingly different than what we expect I just can't see how that changes unless there is virtually a wholesale depth chart adjustment and based on everything we know about this coaching staff I'm not going out on a limb by saying that's unlikely to happen.

HopFan16, i'm a bit confused, how does Foley have another year of eligibility? he was a freshman in the 2016 season so shouldn't 2019 be his final year even though he lost the '17 year due to academic reasons?

[MDlaxfan76]

Foley (2nd team) and Epstein (3rd team) gives us two guys in the top 3 teams (not counting HM), which is more than Notre Dame, who just owned us. So the number of All-Americans obviously doesn't tell the whole story.

I agree that placing guys on the AA teams doesn't tell the entire story. There are lots of factors that go into it from politics, preseason rankings, etc. But, getting guys on the AA teams is certainly a factor in being recognized as a good. Except for Yale (Ierlan), every team still playing this weekend had 2 guys make first team AA. Again, except for Yale (with 3), every final four team had at least 4 guys make 1st, 2nd or 3rd*

This is probably obvious but if you have good players, your team is likely going to be good.

*This is from the USILA list. There are probably differences in other teams like IL or UA.

On the flip side, winning consistently always seems to drive the # of players even considered for AA and where they're ranked (eg Brown would have been a #1 had the team been better). Every once in a while there's an aberration, but it's fair to say that excellent players often are ignored on teams that don't win enough big games, while those same players would be AA's if on a better team.

Very funny discussion on trolls!

[MDlaxfan76]

In addition to Zinn, Matt Narewski could ascend to elite midfielder status as a FOGO. Considering how well he did against Arceri as a frosh you’d have to think that he has a ton of upside. Perhaps there were some other good freshmen sitting on the bench this season who could contribute in the future like Mabbett. I can see Forry headed back to attack next year so maybe we’ll see a shake up in the midfield lines in 2020. The reason for hope is that this team took PSU into OT. How many teams did that in 2019? I agree that Kuhn and Foley are huge losses but the the area of the team with the most depth is the poles. No replacement for Foley on the roster but with good cumulative play they could perhaps compensate in a glass half full view.

Word on the street is that Foley is likely to return next season with a final year of eligibility. Until the school confirms it publicly there's always a chance it goes sideways but it certainly seems to be heading in that direction based on what I've heard. Still, that only postpones the worry over replacing him—along with the entire starting close D unit—to 2021 instead of 2020.

I like what I saw from Narewski—too early to call him a future All-American but he showed a lot as a freshman. But with Prouty there as well it's unclear if he'll ever get to be more than the 1B to Prouty's 1A, or vice versa. I guess if they're both good it doesn't really matter. They will need a lot more help from the wings next year especially with Kuhn gone. Hubler, Reinson, and Zinn return. I like Zinn in that spot and I think if he puts the work in, becoming a Ryan Conrad-type do-it-all middie is not out of his range of outcomes in the near future but on the flip side if the staff really does let him play more on offense next year, does that mean we'll see him less on the wings? If so that's another available spot. If I'm an underclassman or an incoming freshman with an unclear path to playing time, I'd be making it my priority to become a master GB guy on the wing. That is a place this team has needed help unfortunately for many years now.

Goalie and SSDM play are still the two biggest priorities, IMO. Midfield size/athleticism would be one but barring a huge transfer or one or two of these freshmen being shockingly different than what we expect I just can't see how that changes unless there is virtually a wholesale depth chart adjustment and based on everything we know about this coaching staff I'm not going out on a limb by saying that's unlikely to happen.

HopFan16, i'm a bit confused, how does Foley have another year of eligibility? he was a freshman in the 2016 season so shouldn't 2019 be his final year even though he lost the '17 year due to academic reasons?

I don't know this individual situation, but all players have 5 years to play 4 seasons, no questions asked. That appears to fit the scenario you describe (assuming that's all there is to it).

[51percentcorn]

HopFan16, i'm a bit confused, how does Foley have another year of eligibility? he was a freshman in the 2016 season so shouldn't 2019 be his final year even though he lost the '17 year due to academic reasons?

I assume it is not quite a done deal but there is certainly precedent for allowing Foley another year. He did play in fall scrimmages in '16 (I guess) but left school. Chris Boland and Ian Dingman are two players that stick in my mind that received another year of eligibility after leaving school - though with the oft injured Boland it was hard to tell what was what but I think he left in what would have been his sophomore year and already knew he could have another year before he started wrecking knees/collarbones etc.

I thought I read somewhere that playing in fall scrimmages no longer automatically qualifies as forfeiting that year of eligibility? If that is anywhere near true then it would seem like Hopkins would have a decent argument for the extra year - assuming Foley wants it.

[wgdsr]

i will try to help, but may just cause more confusion.
51, i know you've commented on "leaving school", boland and dingman before. leaving school has nothing to do with eligibility. i don't know all the details of either, other than they both had injuries at times, and that dingman was ruled ineligible just before the spring season in one of his years.

first of all, the term redshirt. it's not written once in the nc$$ rulebook, i don't believe. there are 2 types, hardship (medical, family and other) and then what we just know colloquially as simply "redshirt". they each carry their own set of rules.

foley would be applying for the simple "redshirt". you get 5 years to play 4 under these terms. however, it's not no questions asked that you get to play out a full or even part of a season. tinney was suspended. that cost him a year. foley was academically ineligible, after he had triggered his year's eligibility.

the rules prior to summer 2018 (don't know for how long) stated -- for olympic spring sports basically -- that if you played in a non-championship season (fall) or championship season (spring) "date of competition" against another school, you had triggered your eligibility for that season. the only way to then get it back would be to have a "hardship" scenario end your championship season in time. being academically ineligible is not one of those hardships.

i know for a fact that syracuse kept potential redshirt frosh out of fall scrimmages for this reason, and then for a stretch stopped lining up fall dates against other schools for this reason.

so--- coincidentally or not, would have to see the inner workings of the nc$$ for that answer -- when football last summer was able to attain the ability for freshmen to play 4 games without burning a redshirt year, the rule that stated that non-championship (fall) season date of competition participation triggered your year's eligibility was dropped. it may have also had something to do with getting equitable with fall sports, whose non-championship season is AFTER their regular season. i would expect basketball to get something in the near future as it spans both, but i digress...

the question then becomes what about those players who are still in school/still have a potential 5th year, but missed that cutoff for the new rule interpretation? if foley wants to come back, it makes sense for him to ask for a waiver, or whatever the term is. you would hope this kinder, gentler nc$$ would have a reasonable and favorable bent to grant it. might depend on whose desk it lands.

[MDlaxfan76]

Yes, more complicated if a lax player has participated in fall or winter scrimmages, triggering eligibility year, absent a ‘hardship ‘ such as injury.

Dunno whether recent rule changes make that easier.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

Great attendance tonight at Homewood and an instant classic just ended. BC over UNC, 15-14 in 2OT.

Worth watching the replay of the 2 OTs. Great goalie play on both ends, and BC came came out the luckiest by having one UNC miss point blank and later another UNC shot hit the post.

Crazy.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

8508 in attendance yesterday at Homewood.

Another boring free weekend. Nothing interesting on TV.

And I had been looking forward to seeing the Philly beer vendors again.