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Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 12:08 pm
by youthathletics
Concerning the Jews
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:55 am
by OuttaNowhereWregget
If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of stardust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and obtuse learning are also way out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world in all the ages and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself and be excused for it.
The Egyptians, the Babylonians and the Persians rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, and faded to dream stuff and passed away. The Greeks and the Romans followed and made a vast noise and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time. But it burned out, and they sit in twilight now or have vanished. The Jew saw them all. Beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew. All other forces pass, but he remains.
--Mark Twain
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 am
by OCanada
Mark Twain. Quite a long time ago. The Jews did not beat the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks etc. Twain never saw the Germans.
Bengie undercuts the corruption angle and is not the first.
Their culture is in the process of change. When i married in 1980 some rabbis would not participate in interfaith marriages. That is still a thing in some more observant forms. About 3 weeks after i got married i went yo the Bar Mitzvah of my spouse’s nephew. The rabbi spoke to interfaith marriage as genocide. Now you can find categories like Jew by birth and Jew by Choice.
The lexicon of post independence is evolving. The religion has much to emulate in its “philosophy.”
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:53 am
by OuttaNowhereWregget
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 am
Mark Twain. Quite a long time ago. The Jews did not beat the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks etc. Twain never saw the Germans.
Judging from the context, "beat" is a relative term.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:15 pm
by OCanada
Fair enough
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 2:43 pm
by jhu72
... I am reasonably certain no nation recognizes your god as a binding registrar of real estate. Even less so Abraham's word for it. The UN certainly doesn't.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:04 pm
by youthathletics
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 2:43 pm
... I am reasonably certain no nation recognizes your god as a binding registrar of real estate. Even less so Abraham's word for it. The UN certainly doesn't.
The entire region of the ME is all about religion....so why do you even bother commenting, when your claim is that you do not believe in any higher power.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:11 pm
by Matnum PI
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 am
The Jews did not beat the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks etc. Twain never saw the Germans.
As long as the Jews aren't wiped off the map, they win. The fact that the Jews continue to exist is astounding.
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 am
... Jew by birth and Jew by Choice...
Jews who marry non-Jews consistently have children that, as Jews, disappear from the map after a few generations. Or they have no children. Either way, Jews disappear.
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 amThe lexicon of post independence is evolving. The religion has much to emulate in its “philosophy.”
The philosophy of the Jews is just fine. The proof being what Twain is speaking to and more.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:28 pm
by jhu72
youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:04 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 2:43 pm
... I am reasonably certain no nation recognizes your god as a binding registrar of real estate. Even less so Abraham's word for it. The UN certainly doesn't.
The entire region of the ME is all about religion....so why do you even bother commenting, when your claim is that you do not believe in any higher power.
... the folks fighting over the land, both sides believe in exactly the same god. They can't agree on the ownership issue. How important can god's registry be?
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:49 pm
by jhu72
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:11 pm
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 am
The Jews did not beat the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks etc. Twain never saw the Germans.
As long as the Jews aren't wiped off the map, they win. The fact that the Jews continue to exist is astounding.
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 am
... Jew by birth and Jew by Choice...
Jews who marry non-Jews consistently have children that, as Jews, disappear from the map after a few generations. Or they have no children. Either way, Jews disappear.
--- find this curious, I have three children born Jewish. One, the youngest, is super culturally Jewish, one is culturally Jewish, the other married a Jewish girl and I have two Jewish grandchildren. Somehow, I suspect the effect that you are describing is more likely the same effect going on in the US vis-a-vis all religions.
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 amThe lexicon of post independence is evolving. The religion has much to emulate in its “philosophy.”
The philosophy of the Jews is just fine. The proof being what Twain is speaking to and more.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:53 pm
by Matnum PI
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:49 pm
Jews who marry non-Jews consistently have children that, as Jews, disappear from the map after a few generations. Or they have no children. Either way, Jews disappear.
--- find this curious, I have three children born Jewish. One, the youngest, is super culturally Jewish, one is culturally Jewish, the other married a Jewish girl and I have two Jewish grandchildren. Somehow, I suspect the effect that you are describing is more likely the same effect going on in the US vis-a-vis all religions.
Being "a Jew" is more complicated. A young man who was raised catholic but has no connection in their behaviors or thoughts to Catholicism would be hard-pressed to call themselves Catholic. Maybe they call themselves a lapsed Catholic. They can say their parents are Catholic or they plan to be Catholic again when they have kids. But to say that they are Catholic is a stretch. Being a Jew is similar in that it's a religion and the same criteria that applies to the Catholic would apply to a Jew but being a Jew is also a nationality. The Jewish people are a nation. So a Jew can be 100% non-religious and still be a Jew. I don't know the details of your family but the overlaying question would be, What makes them Jewish? It can be either their mother is Jewish or they, so to speak, identify as Jewish or both. I know a woman who is a therapist in NYC (a very "Jewish job") and married a Jew so she identifies as Jewish. Do I consider her Jewish? I do not. But whatever. I'm just pointing out that, so to speak, there are a lot of Jews who, from where I'm sitting, are not Jews. On the other side of the coin, for what it's worth, I know people whose mothers and fathers are 100% genetically Jews who I will admit are Jews but they do not behave like Jews. Again, being a Jew is a religion and a nationality. In other words, a lot of Jews are sort of Jews or partly Jews or whatever you want to call them and to each their own. For most people who wrestle with this question, a Jew is whatever the relevant person is. Anybody who is less than this is not Jewish. Anyone who is more is a Jew but too Jewish. If one were to be objective about an answer to this Jew/Not Jew question would be pulling their answer directly from the Torah. Receiving the Torah is when the Hebrews became Jews.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:04 pm
by OCanada
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:11 pm
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 am
The Jews did not beat the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks etc. Twain never saw the Germans.
As long as the Jews aren't wiped off the map, they win. The fact that the Jews continue to exist is astounding.
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 am
... Jew by birth and Jew by Choice...
Jews who marry non-Jews consistently have children that, as Jews, disappear from the map after a few generations. Or they have no children. Either way, Jews disappear.
OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 10:44 amThe lexicon of post independence is evolving. The religion has much to emulate in its “philosophy.”
The philosophy of the Jews is just fine. The proof being what Twain is speaking to and more.
I thought i said that essentially
Worth reading:
https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Hebre ... C84&sr=8-5
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 12:22 am
by old salt
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:53 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:49 pm
Jews who marry non-Jews consistently have children that, as Jews, disappear from the map after a few generations. Or they have no children. Either way, Jews disappear.
--- find this curious, I have three children born Jewish. One, the youngest, is super culturally Jewish, one is culturally Jewish, the other married a Jewish girl and I have two Jewish grandchildren. Somehow, I suspect the effect that you are describing is more likely the same effect going on in the US vis-a-vis all religions.
Being "a Jew" is more complicated. A young man who was raised catholic but has no connection in their behaviors or thoughts to Catholicism would be hard-pressed to call themselves Catholic. Maybe they call themselves a lapsed Catholic. They can say their parents are Catholic or they plan to be Catholic again when they have kids. But to say that they are Catholic is a stretch. Being a Jew is similar in that it's a religion and the same criteria that applies to the Catholic would apply to a Jew but being a Jew is also a nationality. The Jewish people are a nation. So a Jew can be 100% non-religious and still be a Jew. I don't know the details of your family but the overlaying question would be, What makes them Jewish? It can be either their mother is Jewish or they, so to speak, identify as Jewish or both. I know a woman who is a therapist in NYC (a very "Jewish job") and married a Jew so she identifies as Jewish. Do I consider her Jewish? I do not. But whatever. I'm just pointing out that, so to speak, there are a lot of Jews who, from where I'm sitting, are not Jews. On the other side of the coin, for what it's worth, I know people whose mothers and fathers are 100% genetically Jews who I will admit are Jews but they do not behave like Jews. Again, being a Jew is a religion and a nationality. In other words, a lot of Jews are sort of Jews or partly Jews or whatever you want to call them and to each their own. For most people who wrestle with this question, a Jew is whatever the relevant person is. Anybody who is less than this is not Jewish. Anyone who is more is a Jew but too Jewish. If one were to be objective about an answer to this Jew/Not Jew question would be pulling their answer directly from the Torah. Receiving the Torah is when the Hebrews became Jews.
To get married in a Jewish ceremony, don't both parties have to establish some sort of Jewish bonafides ?
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 10:47 am
by OCanada
I did not. It depends
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 10:49 pm
by Matnum PI
old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 12:22 am
To get married in a Jewish ceremony, don't both parties have to establish some sort of Jewish bonafides ?
definitely not. it's up to the rabbi and/or "rabbi". what's called a "Jewish Wedding" frequently has zero to nothing to do with Jewish.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:38 am
by jhu72
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 4:53 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:49 pm
Jews who marry non-Jews consistently have children that, as Jews, disappear from the map after a few generations. Or they have no children. Either way, Jews disappear.
--- find this curious, I have three children born Jewish. One, the youngest, is super culturally Jewish, one is culturally Jewish, the other married a Jewish girl and I have two Jewish grandchildren. Somehow, I suspect the effect that you are describing is more likely the same effect going on in the US vis-a-vis all religions.
Being "a Jew" is more complicated. A young man who was raised catholic but has no connection in their behaviors or thoughts to Catholicism would be hard-pressed to call themselves Catholic. Maybe they call themselves a lapsed Catholic. They can say their parents are Catholic or they plan to be Catholic again when they have kids. But to say that they are Catholic is a stretch. Being a Jew is similar in that it's a religion and the same criteria that applies to the Catholic would apply to a Jew but being a Jew is also a nationality. The Jewish people are a nation. So a Jew can be 100% non-religious and still be a Jew. I don't know the details of your family but the overlaying question would be, What makes them Jewish? It can be either their mother is Jewish or they, so to speak, identify as Jewish or both. I know a woman who is a therapist in NYC (a very "Jewish job") and married a Jew so she identifies as Jewish. Do I consider her Jewish? I do not. But whatever. I'm just pointing out that, so to speak, there are a lot of Jews who, from where I'm sitting, are not Jews. On the other side of the coin, for what it's worth, I know people whose mothers and fathers are 100% genetically Jews who I will admit are Jews but they do not behave like Jews. Again, being a Jew is a religion and a nationality. In other words, a lot of Jews are sort of Jews or partly Jews or whatever you want to call them and to each their own. For most people who wrestle with this question, a Jew is whatever the relevant person is. Anybody who is less than this is not Jewish. Anyone who is more is a Jew but too Jewish. If one were to be objective about an answer to this Jew/Not Jew question would be pulling their answer directly from the Torah. Receiving the Torah is when the Hebrews became Jews.
... thanks for the response.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:43 am
by jhu72
OCanada wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 10:47 am
I did not. It depends
... same here. Reform rabbis seem more reasonable on this point.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:56 pm
by Matnum PI
jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:43 am
... same here. Reform rabbis seem more reasonable on this point.
Reform rabbis espouse assimilation. So, by definition, they are reasonable according to the non-Jew who wants to marry a Jew. Unreasonable to Jews who prioritize continuity. And, for Jew, many Jews, continuity is not small.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:02 am
by jhu72
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:56 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:43 am
... same here. Reform rabbis seem more reasonable on this point.
Reform rabbis espouse assimilation. So, by definition, they are reasonable according to the non-Jew who wants to marry a Jew. Unreasonable to Jews who prioritize continuity. And, for Jew, many Jews, continuity is not small.
... or the Jew who wants to marry a non-Jew! I did not go out and find this rabbi, my in laws, from a conservative congregation, arranged the marriage. Only one of my extended Jewish family disapproved, I came to find out later. One of my wife's aunts by marriage to the brother of my wife's mother. She is a Zionist, the only one in the family to the best of my knowledge. She always seemed to be everyone's least favorite relative. When meeting the extended family, she was the only family member who did not come to the "party". Her children came, her husband as well. These are some of my favorite relatives. I thought nothing of it at the time. Many years later my mother-in-law explained the dynamics. It really caused a rift between the aunt and my mother-in-law. My uncle-in-law would visit my mother-in-law frequently, but without his wife. The uncle is absolutely one of my favorite people on the planet as were his father and mother.
The aunt didn't warm to me until we had kids and they grew up, and it became clear I didn't care about them being raised culturally Jewish. She really warmed to me when it became clear my youngest considers herself Jewish and she loves Israel (the country, the people). She is not a Zionist, just culturally Jewish and has visited a few times and likes the people.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 10:17 am
by Matnum PI
jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:02 am
... or the Jew who wants to marry a non-Jew!...
100%. I'm not painting a picture where Jews are victims in their assimilation. Fully recognize that there are Jews, many Jews, who want to assimilate, who want to maintain a relatively superficial connection to their being a Jew. As for your aunt-in-law, not simple.
And, not to minimize what you experience(d), a very common experience. FWIW, from where I'm sitting, your aunt behaving the way she did has less to do with her being a Zionist and more to do with her having control issues.