Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 2:46 pm
How is that, Pizza? What did Israel sow to justify this reaping of endless rockets?
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Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 2:52 pm
Years of circumscription of civil rights and denial of basic needs such as water for personal consumption and agriculture. I posted a few pages previously on the root cause of conflict in this area: water.
“Wiskey’s fer drinkin’, water’s fer fightin’.”
Once people lose hope, as have the Palestinians, they will do things that seem inconceivable to others. Put yourself in their situation and explain how you would act differently.
We, the US, need to get out from between the mad-dog and the tree...
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:03 pm
i guess israel is the maddog?PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 2:52 pmWe, the US, need to get out from between the mad-dog and the tree...
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:05 pm
Well in my experience they’re all religious for that year preceding their barmitsvas. At least anecdotally from a few close (one being of the best closest variety) friends and in law famy. My nephew went as far as to state at his barmitsvah (held at the hippy synagogue with the horrified Sudbury based wealthy brother in laws sibling is from and with the scent free section and dancing and “twinkling”) that “this is defitely the most Jewish thing I’ve ever done!”Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 2:21 pmWhat's unique about Judaism is that it's a religion as well as a nation. As evidenced by the large number of non-religious Jews. Including in Israel.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 2:11 pmAs a nation we need to stay away from religious conflicts —intractable and deadly.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:07 pm
In my opinion, yes.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:03 pmi guess israel is the maddog?PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 2:52 pmWe, the US, need to get out from between the mad-dog and the tree...
I've learned not to try to separate fighting dogs. You get bit for your efforts.
Sorry for the mixed idioms. But you probably understand what I’m saying.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:11 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 2:10 pm
Right this presented as evidence that the State of Israel is wrong is specious at best. And just thrown up with no context as to their background which took someone else to explain, isn’t far off what a Pete Brown does just perhaps with somehow a better intent.
Then add in this poster would never allow someone to use the Bible for interpretation of something he rejected without jumping all over it as being a “book of fiction” to some other argument is a bit questionable.
Hardly specious when they can, at least, point to biblical references to justify their position on the issue when their opponents cannot.
As for "fiction", dunno who you mean or in what specific context.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:20 pm
2 maddogs i hear. hamas and the palestinians as passive as a tree to this maddog, that's more difficult...PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:07 pmIn my opinion, yes.
I've learned not to try to separate fighting dogs. You get bit for your efforts.
Sorry for the mixed idioms. But you probably understand what I’m saying.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:23 pm
in some circles in america, this would be called religious. in israel, this is not. objectively, it's religious but it's not jewish religious. reform and conservative judaism are steeped in cultural judaism with little resemblance to religious (torah) judaism.Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:05 pmWell in my experience they’re all religious for that year preceding their barmitsvas. At least anecdotally from a few close (one being of the best closest variety) friends and in law famy. My nephew went as far as to state at his barmitsvah (held at the hippy synagogue with the horrified Sudbury based wealthy brother in laws sibling is from and with the scent free section and dancing and “twinkling”) that “this is defitely the most Jewish thing I’ve ever done!”
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:26 pm
I know was losing because it’s funny, I wish I could get paid like that at 13! I’d be all up in the house of god, whipping my back with thorns or whatever I need to do to have gotten that type of cheddar!
Also love how serious converts get into it.
Also love how serious converts get into it.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:38 pm
Sorry for the imprecision. The Palestinian people are victims of a failed “state” brought about in no small part by the policies of Israel. If the Palestinian people had agency I’d say Hamas And Hizbollah are their problem to deal with.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:20 pm2 maddogs i hear. hamas and the palestinians as passive as a tree to this maddog, that's more difficult...PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:07 pmIn my opinion, yes.
I've learned not to try to separate fighting dogs. You get bit for your efforts.
Sorry for the mixed idioms. But you probably understand what I’m saying.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:46 pm
In a Democratic election, these same Palestinians elected a leader who was a member of the "Hamas party". Palestinians are far from passive in this process.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:38 pmIf the Palestinian people had agency I’d say Hamas And Hizbollah are their problem to deal with.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:03 pm
Okay, so 3 dogs.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:46 pmIn a Democratic election, these same Palestinians elected a leader who was a member of the "Hamas party". Palestinians are far from passive in this process.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:38 pmIf the Palestinian people had agency I’d say Hamas And Hizbollah are their problem to deal with.
I’m still staying out.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:11 pm
Sure, but don't tell me this significantly degrades Hamas. They are back in business the following day. Israel is not breaking Hamas by returning rocket fire. More is needed.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 2:36 pmThey need to stop the rocket fire. They have the dome and... they need to stop the rocket fire. In terms of feet on the ground and using intelligence, c'mon JHU.jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 2:20 pmThe problem is Hamas (and a few non-Hamas Palestinians). I really don't think trading rocket fire with them is a very effect means of engaging against Hamas. They need to separate Hamas from the Palestinians generally and kill Hamas. I understand that is always difficult, but it can't be done with rocket fire and bombs. It takes feet on the ground and intelligence. I suspect the intelligence already exists. A costly operation in terms of men and blood. What the Israeli government is doing today is basically an ineffective "show" for citizen consumption.Israel does tons of work with spies and feet on the ground, intelligence work. Mossad is no joke. their work is legendary. they do tons of feet on the ground work and, right now... They need to stop the rockets.
At the moment it looks like this round may actually lead to talks that are unlikely to go anywhere. Rinse repeat.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:13 pm
The great majority are captives of Hamas. Not like they have a lot of choice.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:46 pmIn a Democratic election, these same Palestinians elected a leader who was a member of the "Hamas party". Palestinians are far from passive in this process.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:38 pmIf the Palestinian people had agency I’d say Hamas And Hizbollah are their problem to deal with.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:15 pm
3000%. Agreed. Which is why this isn't all that Israel does to provide their citizens with security.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:32 pm
I don't see how making Palestinians move out of their homes so an Israeli developer can build houses or apartments for Jewish citizens, nor evicting a Palestinian family in favor of a Jewish family is providing any extra security. This is a land grab pure and simple using laws that only apply to Palestinians.
So there is no 2 state solution. The Israelis now claim there will be a one state solution, they will all be one big happy family. They are off to a hell of a start.
No way this can go south.Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:36 pm
i don't think these acts were for security. If anything, they were fearful it would do the opposite. These things happened because a citizen wanted them to happen (which he has the right to do) and it was seemingly not against Israeli law. As we speak, the proceedings are being looked at by Israeli magistrates and they're going to have an opinion in less than a month.jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:32 pmI don't see how making Palestinians move out of their homes so an Israeli developer can build houses or apartments for Jewish citizens, nor evicting a Palestinian family in favor of a Palestinian family is providing any extra security. This is a land grab pure and simple using laws that only apply to Palestinians.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:40 pm
Look at the water rights. Land is irrelevant without water.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:36 pmi don't think these acts were for security. If anything, they were fearful it would do the opposite. These things happened because a citizen wanted them to happen (which he has the right to do) and it was seemingly not against Israeli law. As we speak, the proceedings are being looked at by Israeli magistrates and they're going to have an opinion in less than a month.jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:32 pmI don't see how making Palestinians move out of their homes so an Israeli developer can build houses or apartments for Jewish citizens, nor evicting a Palestinian family in favor of a Palestinian family is providing any extra security. This is a land grab pure and simple using laws that only apply to Palestinians.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:46 pm
Agreed. but that's not what this specific land deal was about. This was just a real estate deal... which happens to involve Palestinians and Israelis.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:40 pmLook at the water rights. Land is irrelevant without water.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:00 pm
... this was part of the point of a two state solution. Make the Palestinians responsible, but you can't get to that point when the Israelis refuse to negotiate, refuse to allow for a non-failed Palestinian state. Sorry to say it, but it is so clearly true, there is a faction (the right wing) in Israel today, that like things just the way they are! The world has been stuck since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by the Israeli right wing -- 25 years ago.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:38 pmSorry for the imprecision. The Palestinian people are victims of a failed “state” brought about in no small part by the policies of Israel. If the Palestinian people had agency I’d say Hamas And Hizbollah are their problem to deal with.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:20 pm2 maddogs i hear. hamas and the palestinians as passive as a tree to this maddog, that's more difficult...PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 3:07 pmIn my opinion, yes.
I've learned not to try to separate fighting dogs. You get bit for your efforts.
Sorry for the mixed idioms. But you probably understand what I’m saying.