All Things Environment

[DocBarrister]

You're right, Cranky! and why is it "too bad" in this instance?? May it be that the fossil fuel industry (and its supporters) do all they can to discourage and suppress R&D support and resources for battery development here in the states...perhaps? This is the kind of stuff that happens (foreign company getting ahead on the issue) when people have the BAD ATTITUDE they do about "Clean Energy" and alternatives to the fossil fuel economy...

..

I don't have a "bad attitude" about clean energy. I have a "bad attitude" about a bunch of environmentalist clowns telling what kind of car i have to drive to make them happy. Clean energy will be able to stand up on its own 2 legs someday without the leg braces. The internal combustion engine will still be around for a long time, much to your chagrin my jaundiced friend.

GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035.

The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.

General Motors said Thursday it would phase out petroleum-powered cars and trucks and sell only vehicles that have zero tailpipe emissions by 2035, a seismic shift by one of the world’s largest automakers that makes billions of dollars today from gas-guzzling pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles.

The announcement could put pressure on automakers around the world to make similar commitments. It could also embolden President Biden and other elected officials to push for even more aggressive policies to fight climate change. Leaders could point to G.M.’s decision as evidence that even big businesses have decided that it is time for the world to begin to transition away from fossil fuels that have powered the global economy for more than a century.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/busi ... e=Homepage

DocBarrister

"GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035."
Until they realize nobody wants to buy them, then they are effed. They have 14 years to win over the hearts and minds of millions of soon to be former customers. I wonder what the people at FORD are thinking? Usually the customer decides what they want to buy. This is turning the tables around, this is the only thing we will allow you to buy. Sounds like the folks at GM are making a huge mistake. I can understand expanding the market, i can't understand them saying buy this product at exorbitantly high prices or go somewhere else. I'll happily go someplace else to buy the car I want and not the only car they will offer.

You are living in the past. There will be cars powered by internal combustion engines rolling around in 2050, but those will likely be heavily taxed and the play things of the rich. The vast majority of gas stations will be gone by then. All new cars will be zero emissions by 2050. Heck, NASCAR will have switched to zero emission vehicles by that time (who the heck wants to buy all that fuel)?

The one thing not mentioned enough about electric vehicles ... they are fast. The top line electrics can give a Ferrari or Lamborghini a good challenge in terms of acceleration.

Right now, cost and “range anxiety” are the big impediments for electric vehicles. That will be solved in the next five years.

Internal combustion engines for cars will be history within a couple of decades, as will much of the fossil fuel industry. It’s inevitable.

Time for old thinking to be retired.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

For Electric Car Makers, This Battery Breakthrough Could Change Everything

Batteries capable of fully charging in five minutes have been produced in a factory for the first time, marking a significant step towards electric cars becoming as fast to charge as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles.

Electric vehicles are a vital part of action to tackle the climate crisis but running out of charge during a journey is a worry for drivers. The new lithium-ion batteries were developed by the Israeli company StoreDot and manufactured by Eve Energy in China on standard production lines.

StoreDot has already demonstrated its “extreme fast-charging” battery in phones, drones and scooters and the 1,000 batteries it has now produced are to showcase its technology to carmakers and other companies. Daimler, BP, Samsung and TDK have all invested in StoreDot, which has raised $130m to date and was named a Bloomberg New Energy Finance Pioneer in 2020.

Too bad we can't make them in America. POTUS Biden was just pleading the made in America case yesterday, even signed the EO, oh well.

All our unemployed coal miners & oil & gas sector workers will be rounded up & shipped off to China to make them.
Space will be available for them in the Weiger re-education camps. Hunter gets a cut,

[old salt]

Hydrogen (hopefully, “green” hydrogen produced through solar or wind powered mass electrolysis of water) and fuel cells are likely to play a bigger role for bigger vehicles ... large trucks, buses, ships, planes. Hydrogen fuel cells may even be a better technology in the long run for cars and smaller trucks, as long as the hydrogen is produced in a clean manner.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

Heck, NASCAR will have switched to zero emission vehicles by that time (who the heck wants to buy all that fuel)?

Time for old thinking to be retired.

DocBarrister

[Typical Lax Dad]

For Electric Car Makers, This Battery Breakthrough Could Change Everything

Batteries capable of fully charging in five minutes have been produced in a factory for the first time, marking a significant step towards electric cars becoming as fast to charge as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles.

Electric vehicles are a vital part of action to tackle the climate crisis but running out of charge during a journey is a worry for drivers. The new lithium-ion batteries were developed by the Israeli company StoreDot and manufactured by Eve Energy in China on standard production lines.

StoreDot has already demonstrated its “extreme fast-charging” battery in phones, drones and scooters and the 1,000 batteries it has now produced are to showcase its technology to carmakers and other companies. Daimler, BP, Samsung and TDK have all invested in StoreDot, which has raised $130m to date and was named a Bloomberg New Energy Finance Pioneer in 2020.

Too bad we can't make them in America. POTUS Biden was just pleading the made in America case yesterday, even signed the EO, oh well.

All our unemployed coal miners & oil & gas sector workers will be rounded up & shipped off to China to make them.
Space will be available for them in the Weiger re-education camps. Hunter gets a cut,

Good riddance

[cradleandshoot]

You're right, Cranky! and why is it "too bad" in this instance?? May it be that the fossil fuel industry (and its supporters) do all they can to discourage and suppress R&D support and resources for battery development here in the states...perhaps? This is the kind of stuff that happens (foreign company getting ahead on the issue) when people have the BAD ATTITUDE they do about "Clean Energy" and alternatives to the fossil fuel economy...

..

I don't have a "bad attitude" about clean energy. I have a "bad attitude" about a bunch of environmentalist clowns telling what kind of car i have to drive to make them happy. Clean energy will be able to stand up on its own 2 legs someday without the leg braces. The internal combustion engine will still be around for a long time, much to your chagrin my jaundiced friend.

GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035.

The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.

General Motors said Thursday it would phase out petroleum-powered cars and trucks and sell only vehicles that have zero tailpipe emissions by 2035, a seismic shift by one of the world’s largest automakers that makes billions of dollars today from gas-guzzling pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles.

The announcement could put pressure on automakers around the world to make similar commitments. It could also embolden President Biden and other elected officials to push for even more aggressive policies to fight climate change. Leaders could point to G.M.’s decision as evidence that even big businesses have decided that it is time for the world to begin to transition away from fossil fuels that have powered the global economy for more than a century.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/busi ... e=Homepage

DocBarrister

"GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035."
Until they realize nobody wants to buy them, then they are effed. They have 14 years to win over the hearts and minds of millions of soon to be former customers. I wonder what the people at FORD are thinking? Usually the customer decides what they want to buy. This is turning the tables around, this is the only thing we will allow you to buy. Sounds like the folks at GM are making a huge mistake. I can understand expanding the market, i can't understand them saying buy this product at exorbitantly high prices or go somewhere else. I'll happily go someplace else to buy the car I want and not the only car they will offer.

You are living in the past. There will be cars powered by internal combustion engines rolling around in 2050, but those will likely be heavily taxed and the play things of the rich. The vast majority of gas stations will be gone by then. All new cars will be zero emissions by 2050. Heck, NASCAR will have switched to zero emission vehicles by that time (who the heck wants to buy all that fuel)?

The one thing not mentioned enough about electric vehicles ... they are fast. The top line electrics can give a Ferrari or Lamborghini a good challenge in terms of acceleration.

Right now, cost and “range anxiety” are the big impediments for electric vehicles. That will be solved in the next five years.

Internal combustion engines for cars will be history within a couple of decades, as will much of the fossil fuel industry. It’s inevitable.

Time for old thinking to be retired.

DocBarrister

So how do folks on a limited income afford these expensive new cars? It could be said that GM is practicing systemic racism. They are pricing poor folks out of the ability to purchase a new vehicle. You don't have a problem with that Doc? My simple answer is a brandy new government program, because all Americans are entitled to having an electric car. I say it with sarcasm but why do i know some FLP toadie out there in lib land is saying..... yeeeeeeeeah, good idea, create a new entitlement.

[foreverlax]

You're right, Cranky! and why is it "too bad" in this instance?? May it be that the fossil fuel industry (and its supporters) do all they can to discourage and suppress R&D support and resources for battery development here in the states...perhaps? This is the kind of stuff that happens (foreign company getting ahead on the issue) when people have the BAD ATTITUDE they do about "Clean Energy" and alternatives to the fossil fuel economy...

..

I don't have a "bad attitude" about clean energy. I have a "bad attitude" about a bunch of environmentalist clowns telling what kind of car i have to drive to make them happy. Clean energy will be able to stand up on its own 2 legs someday without the leg braces. The internal combustion engine will still be around for a long time, much to your chagrin my jaundiced friend.

GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035.

The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.

General Motors said Thursday it would phase out petroleum-powered cars and trucks and sell only vehicles that have zero tailpipe emissions by 2035, a seismic shift by one of the world’s largest automakers that makes billions of dollars today from gas-guzzling pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles.

The announcement could put pressure on automakers around the world to make similar commitments. It could also embolden President Biden and other elected officials to push for even more aggressive policies to fight climate change. Leaders could point to G.M.’s decision as evidence that even big businesses have decided that it is time for the world to begin to transition away from fossil fuels that have powered the global economy for more than a century.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/busi ... e=Homepage

DocBarrister

"GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035."
Until they realize nobody wants to buy them, then they are effed. They have 14 years to win over the hearts and minds of millions of soon to be former customers. I wonder what the people at FORD are thinking? Usually the customer decides what they want to buy. This is turning the tables around, this is the only thing we will allow you to buy. Sounds like the folks at GM are making a huge mistake. I can understand expanding the market, i can't understand them saying buy this product at exorbitantly high prices or go somewhere else. I'll happily go someplace else to buy the car I want and not the only car they will offer.

You are living in the past. There will be cars powered by internal combustion engines rolling around in 2050, but those will likely be heavily taxed and the play things of the rich. The vast majority of gas stations will be gone by then. All new cars will be zero emissions by 2050. Heck, NASCAR will have switched to zero emission vehicles by that time (who the heck wants to buy all that fuel)?

The one thing not mentioned enough about electric vehicles ... they are fast. The top line electrics can give a Ferrari or Lamborghini a good challenge in terms of acceleration.

Right now, cost and “range anxiety” are the big impediments for electric vehicles. That will be solved in the next five years.

Internal combustion engines for cars will be history within a couple of decades, as will much of the fossil fuel industry. It’s inevitable.

Time for old thinking to be retired.

DocBarrister

So how do folks on a limited income afford these expensive new cars? It could be said that GM is practicing systemic racism. They are pricing poor folks out of the ability to purchase a new vehicle. You don't have a problem with that Doc? My simple answer is a brandy new government program, because all Americans are entitled to having an electric car. I say it with sarcasm but why do i know some FLP toadie out there in lib land is saying..... yeeeeeeeeah, good idea, create a new entitlement.

How about all the "yuppies" buying F150's, fully loaded....$50k+ price tag - how many contractors can afford that?

[cradleandshoot]

You're right, Cranky! and why is it "too bad" in this instance?? May it be that the fossil fuel industry (and its supporters) do all they can to discourage and suppress R&D support and resources for battery development here in the states...perhaps? This is the kind of stuff that happens (foreign company getting ahead on the issue) when people have the BAD ATTITUDE they do about "Clean Energy" and alternatives to the fossil fuel economy...

..

I don't have a "bad attitude" about clean energy. I have a "bad attitude" about a bunch of environmentalist clowns telling what kind of car i have to drive to make them happy. Clean energy will be able to stand up on its own 2 legs someday without the leg braces. The internal combustion engine will still be around for a long time, much to your chagrin my jaundiced friend.

GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035.

The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.

General Motors said Thursday it would phase out petroleum-powered cars and trucks and sell only vehicles that have zero tailpipe emissions by 2035, a seismic shift by one of the world’s largest automakers that makes billions of dollars today from gas-guzzling pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles.

The announcement could put pressure on automakers around the world to make similar commitments. It could also embolden President Biden and other elected officials to push for even more aggressive policies to fight climate change. Leaders could point to G.M.’s decision as evidence that even big businesses have decided that it is time for the world to begin to transition away from fossil fuels that have powered the global economy for more than a century.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/busi ... e=Homepage

DocBarrister

"GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035."
Until they realize nobody wants to buy them, then they are effed. They have 14 years to win over the hearts and minds of millions of soon to be former customers. I wonder what the people at FORD are thinking? Usually the customer decides what they want to buy. This is turning the tables around, this is the only thing we will allow you to buy. Sounds like the folks at GM are making a huge mistake. I can understand expanding the market, i can't understand them saying buy this product at exorbitantly high prices or go somewhere else. I'll happily go someplace else to buy the car I want and not the only car they will offer.

You are living in the past. There will be cars powered by internal combustion engines rolling around in 2050, but those will likely be heavily taxed and the play things of the rich. The vast majority of gas stations will be gone by then. All new cars will be zero emissions by 2050. Heck, NASCAR will have switched to zero emission vehicles by that time (who the heck wants to buy all that fuel)?

The one thing not mentioned enough about electric vehicles ... they are fast. The top line electrics can give a Ferrari or Lamborghini a good challenge in terms of acceleration.

Right now, cost and “range anxiety” are the big impediments for electric vehicles. That will be solved in the next five years.

Internal combustion engines for cars will be history within a couple of decades, as will much of the fossil fuel industry. It’s inevitable.

Time for old thinking to be retired.

DocBarrister

So how do folks on a limited income afford these expensive new cars? It could be said that GM is practicing systemic racism. They are pricing poor folks out of the ability to purchase a new vehicle. You don't have a problem with that Doc? My simple answer is a brandy new government program, because all Americans are entitled to having an electric car. I say it with sarcasm but why do i know some FLP toadie out there in lib land is saying..... yeeeeeeeeah, good idea, create a new entitlement.

How about all the "yuppies" buying F150's, fully loaded....$50k+ price tag - how many contractors can afford that?

That is easy peasy... just check out the estimate for their remodeling job on your house. The cost of their truck is built into the cake. The customer pays for the fancy trucks with all the bells and whistles, you would think they ( the customer) had already figured that out. The guy who does a lot of the work in my house I can't do anymore drives an old Ford Box truck he converted himself on the cheap. I am glad to pay him for his skill. I know I am not paying for his truck payment.

[DocBarrister]

Hydrogen (hopefully, “green” hydrogen produced through solar or wind powered mass electrolysis of water) and fuel cells are likely to play a bigger role for bigger vehicles ... large trucks, buses, ships, planes. Hydrogen fuel cells may even be a better technology in the long run for cars and smaller trucks, as long as the hydrogen is produced in a clean manner.

DocBarrister

Ah, I see your mind is stuck in the 1930s. Explains some of your posts.

Let me at least bring you along to the 1960s, when hydrogen fuel cells were crucial to the moon landings.

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-o ... 9730934000

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

You're right, Cranky! and why is it "too bad" in this instance?? May it be that the fossil fuel industry (and its supporters) do all they can to discourage and suppress R&D support and resources for battery development here in the states...perhaps? This is the kind of stuff that happens (foreign company getting ahead on the issue) when people have the BAD ATTITUDE they do about "Clean Energy" and alternatives to the fossil fuel economy...

..

I don't have a "bad attitude" about clean energy. I have a "bad attitude" about a bunch of environmentalist clowns telling what kind of car i have to drive to make them happy. Clean energy will be able to stand up on its own 2 legs someday without the leg braces. The internal combustion engine will still be around for a long time, much to your chagrin my jaundiced friend.

GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035.

The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.

General Motors said Thursday it would phase out petroleum-powered cars and trucks and sell only vehicles that have zero tailpipe emissions by 2035, a seismic shift by one of the world’s largest automakers that makes billions of dollars today from gas-guzzling pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles.

The announcement could put pressure on automakers around the world to make similar commitments. It could also embolden President Biden and other elected officials to push for even more aggressive policies to fight climate change. Leaders could point to G.M.’s decision as evidence that even big businesses have decided that it is time for the world to begin to transition away from fossil fuels that have powered the global economy for more than a century.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/busi ... e=Homepage

DocBarrister

"GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035."
Until they realize nobody wants to buy them, then they are effed. They have 14 years to win over the hearts and minds of millions of soon to be former customers. I wonder what the people at FORD are thinking? Usually the customer decides what they want to buy. This is turning the tables around, this is the only thing we will allow you to buy. Sounds like the folks at GM are making a huge mistake. I can understand expanding the market, i can't understand them saying buy this product at exorbitantly high prices or go somewhere else. I'll happily go someplace else to buy the car I want and not the only car they will offer.

You are living in the past. There will be cars powered by internal combustion engines rolling around in 2050, but those will likely be heavily taxed and the play things of the rich. The vast majority of gas stations will be gone by then. All new cars will be zero emissions by 2050. Heck, NASCAR will have switched to zero emission vehicles by that time (who the heck wants to buy all that fuel)?

The one thing not mentioned enough about electric vehicles ... they are fast. The top line electrics can give a Ferrari or Lamborghini a good challenge in terms of acceleration.

Right now, cost and “range anxiety” are the big impediments for electric vehicles. That will be solved in the next five years.

Internal combustion engines for cars will be history within a couple of decades, as will much of the fossil fuel industry. It’s inevitable.

Time for old thinking to be retired.

DocBarrister

So how do folks on a limited income afford these expensive new cars? It could be said that GM is practicing systemic racism. They are pricing poor folks out of the ability to purchase a new vehicle. You don't have a problem with that Doc? My simple answer is a brandy new government program, because all Americans are entitled to having an electric car. I say it with sarcasm but why do i know some FLP toadie out there in lib land is saying..... yeeeeeeeeah, good idea, create a new entitlement.

Same way automobiles in general became affordable to nearly everyone ... mass production, economies of scale, and government investment in infrastructure (then ... roads and highways ... now ... charging stations and hydrogen distribution systems).

You act as if technological transformations and displacements have never happened before. Usually conservatives who have to be dragged kicking and whining into a new era. History repeats itself, so the saying goes.

You’re like those conservatives who argued that “automobiles” would never replace horses and horse-drawn carriages.

DocBarrister

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/30/us/big-s ... index.html

Going to need to detour for a while

[old salt]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/30/us/big-s ... index.html

Going to need to detour for a while

...need another mudslide to fill the washed out gash.

[cradleandshoot]

You're right, Cranky! and why is it "too bad" in this instance?? May it be that the fossil fuel industry (and its supporters) do all they can to discourage and suppress R&D support and resources for battery development here in the states...perhaps? This is the kind of stuff that happens (foreign company getting ahead on the issue) when people have the BAD ATTITUDE they do about "Clean Energy" and alternatives to the fossil fuel economy...

..

I don't have a "bad attitude" about clean energy. I have a "bad attitude" about a bunch of environmentalist clowns telling what kind of car i have to drive to make them happy. Clean energy will be able to stand up on its own 2 legs someday without the leg braces. The internal combustion engine will still be around for a long time, much to your chagrin my jaundiced friend.

GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035.

The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.

General Motors said Thursday it would phase out petroleum-powered cars and trucks and sell only vehicles that have zero tailpipe emissions by 2035, a seismic shift by one of the world’s largest automakers that makes billions of dollars today from gas-guzzling pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles.

The announcement could put pressure on automakers around the world to make similar commitments. It could also embolden President Biden and other elected officials to push for even more aggressive policies to fight climate change. Leaders could point to G.M.’s decision as evidence that even big businesses have decided that it is time for the world to begin to transition away from fossil fuels that have powered the global economy for more than a century.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/busi ... e=Homepage

DocBarrister

"GM just announced that they will be selling only zero emission vehicles by 2035."
Until they realize nobody wants to buy them, then they are effed. They have 14 years to win over the hearts and minds of millions of soon to be former customers. I wonder what the people at FORD are thinking? Usually the customer decides what they want to buy. This is turning the tables around, this is the only thing we will allow you to buy. Sounds like the folks at GM are making a huge mistake. I can understand expanding the market, i can't understand them saying buy this product at exorbitantly high prices or go somewhere else. I'll happily go someplace else to buy the car I want and not the only car they will offer.

You are living in the past. There will be cars powered by internal combustion engines rolling around in 2050, but those will likely be heavily taxed and the play things of the rich. The vast majority of gas stations will be gone by then. All new cars will be zero emissions by 2050. Heck, NASCAR will have switched to zero emission vehicles by that time (who the heck wants to buy all that fuel)?

The one thing not mentioned enough about electric vehicles ... they are fast. The top line electrics can give a Ferrari or Lamborghini a good challenge in terms of acceleration.

Right now, cost and “range anxiety” are the big impediments for electric vehicles. That will be solved in the next five years.

Internal combustion engines for cars will be history within a couple of decades, as will much of the fossil fuel industry. It’s inevitable.

Time for old thinking to be retired.

DocBarrister

So how do folks on a limited income afford these expensive new cars? It could be said that GM is practicing systemic racism. They are pricing poor folks out of the ability to purchase a new vehicle. You don't have a problem with that Doc? My simple answer is a brandy new government program, because all Americans are entitled to having an electric car. I say it with sarcasm but why do i know some FLP toadie out there in lib land is saying..... yeeeeeeeeah, good idea, create a new entitlement.

Same way automobiles in general became affordable to nearly everyone ... mass production, economies of scale, and government investment in infrastructure (then ... roads and highways ... now ... charging stations and hydrogen distribution systems).

You act as if technological transformations and displacements have never happened before. Usually conservatives who have to be dragged kicking and whining into a new era. History repeats itself, so the saying goes.

You’re like those conservatives who argued that “automobiles” would never replace horses and horse-drawn carriages.

DocBarrister

People were not forced to buy cars to replace horses, people wanted to buy cars. People may or may not want to buy and electric car for a variety of reasons, they are being forced to buy electric cars. GM is trying to find a market that at present does not exist. They are betting their company that in 30 years what they want to do will pay off. The USA has 30 years to figure out how to increase our electric output capacity, already stretched very thin, to provide the charging power for millions of vehicles. How much will it cost a person then to charge that electric car?

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... ower-grids

I noticed the biggest issue would be what time of day people choose to recharge their car. If everybody hooks up at say 6pm when they get home that becomes a demand for electricity that the system probably can't handle as of today and in the foreseeable future.

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/30/us/big-s ... index.html

Going to need to detour for a while

...need another mudslide to fill the washed out gash.

So the folks in SoCal can stop complaining about the drought.

[ardilla secreta]

People that can’t afford an electric vehicle will have another option. There will be hoards of conspiracy theorists who will have been fired from their jobs and will only find employment by pulling a rickshaw. We’ll just have to find a way to keep them from pooping on the streets.

[youthathletics]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/30/us/big-s ... index.html

Going to need to detour for a while

...need another mudslide to fill the washed out gash.

So the folks in SoCal can stop complaining about the drought.

Kill the farmer, save the smelt. https://www.courthousenews.com/californ ... water-war/

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/30/us/big-s ... index.html

Going to need to detour for a while

...need another mudslide to fill the washed out gash.

So the folks in SoCal can stop complaining about the drought.

Kill the farmer, save the smelt. https://www.courthousenews.com/californ ... water-war/

I Robot?

[cradleandshoot]

People that can’t afford an electric vehicle will have another option. There will be hoards of conspiracy theorists who will have been fired from their jobs and will only find employment by pulling a rickshaw. We’ll just have to find a way to keep them from pooping on the streets.

What is the big deal, San Francisco has tons of it citizens chitting on the sidewalks and the streets. Think of all the people they have had to hire just to pick up peoples chit. JOB OPPORTUNITY... you liberals can call it 15 an hour for feces.

[old salt]

Market forces caused the automobile to replace the horse & buggy. It was not forced by the givt.

[cradleandshoot]

Market forces caused the automobile to replace the horse & buggy. It was not forced by the givt.

+1 that is what i was trying to say.