Dartmouth Men's Lacrosse

[Ox77]

It is possible but could be unrelated. I would have to see if there was a change in the admissions staff. Coach Shay and his staff did a good job of identifying overlooked talent and then developing it.

I more meant, did he make other general donations to the school on the condition that admissions shift more of the AI slack in the lacrosse program's direction?

While, as Typical Lax Dad indicates, Shay has been given more slots, I doubt we'd ever really know if there was the sort of quid pro quo that you suggest, HooDat. The increase is generally credited to Shay and the Athletic Director.

Hoodat do you have evidence to back up that claim... that Yale lowered AI standards for Lax? Or are you "just asking a question" the same way people were just asking questions about Obama's birth certificate? (sorry- not about the politics but the best example I could think of).

I don't equate more slots with lowering A/I standards BTW. There is a huge difference between being sponsored by the coach and having to get in on your own. Getting in on your own is a lottery because its next to impossible to get into Yale no matter how strong your academic chops are. A friends kid did not get in. The guy is remarkable. He had to settle for Stanford......

Nor do I, TLD. I was referring more to the insinuation of a lower AI for yale lax. More slots is one thing- and still an agreement to take more non-"other" kids. but there are a couple of football kids on the list if I recall, and certainly some walk ons. Shoot- the best '22 (first year) on the roster was a Salutatorian at his school... not sure where that helps AI-wise but I'm guessing it might help the roster's average AI!

[HooDat]

It is possible but could be unrelated. I would have to see if there was a change in the admissions staff. Coach Shay and his staff did a good job of identifying overlooked talent and then developing it.

I more meant, did he make other general donations to the school on the condition that admissions shift more of the AI slack in the lacrosse program's direction?

While, as Typical Lax Dad indicates, Shay has been given more slots, I doubt we'd ever really know if there was the sort of quid pro quo that you suggest, HooDat. The increase is generally credited to Shay and the Athletic Director.

Hoodat do you have evidence to back up that claim... that Yale lowered AI standards for Lax? Or are you "just asking a question" the same way people were just asking questions about Obama's birth certificate? (sorry- not about the politics but the best example I could think of).

I don't equate more slots with lowering A/I standards BTW. There is a huge difference between being sponsored by the coach and having to get in on your own. Getting in on your own is a lottery because its next to impossible to get into Yale no matter how strong your academic chops are. A friends kid did not get in. The guy is remarkable. He had to settle for Stanford......

There are a lot of ways that a program can get admissions support, and Ox77 needs to chill out . I never made any claim. I did not cast any aspersions. I asked a question.

As TLD points out - a team may just get more slots to sponsor. But the other common way an AD can support a program is by letting that program have a few more of the lower AI candidates while asking another program to come in above the AI - as I assume everyone here knows, the Ivy League schools are measured on average AI across all athletics, with 2 standard deviation type limitations on outliers. That is in no way a lowering of the AI, it is an allocation of which teams get the low end outliers and which teams are asked to deliver more high end outliers. Of course, coaches who can deliver above school target AI players get LOTS of brownie points with admissions.

[The Orfling]

Hi, Dartmouth friends — I’ve followed the discussion as it relates to Yale and have been meaning to weigh in.

First, an emphatic “no” that the AI has been lowered for men’s lacrosse. We as Yale fans have been lucky and Coach Shay has done a great job of getting some truly talented students as well as lacrosse players — not everybody is a Ben Reeves with a near 4.0 average in a difficult STEM major, but for example, the top freshman performer this year, Brandau, is an academic star. So there has not even been pressure for a lowering/adjustment of the AI so far as I’m aware, and it’s a certainty that no adjustment has taken place.

Second, Joe Tsai’s generosity to the program was amazing — it says a lot about what college athletics means in the life of even the most successful person — but the idea of any sort of quid pro quo regarding admissions slots is not founded. The timeline on the Yale HC convincing the then-Yale AD to go to bat with admissions for a couple additional slots was very separate from the timeline of the Tsai gift. It’s reasonable that the level of support from alumni is something an AD could consider in deciding how much of a particular resource to devote to that sport, but here from my understanding the focus was on the fact that the Ivy as a conference can be competitive nationally in the sport of lacrosse and the Yale HC made arguments that larger recruiting classes would be integral in attaining excellence first in the Ivy League and then nationally. Obviously he backed his arguments up!

On the bigger picture of Dartmouth lacrosse: Dartmouth is such an amazing school, with so much going for it. The spirt is unique in the Ivies, I’d say. If the college decides a men’s lacrosse upgrade in its fortunes is desirable, I think it could be attained. The indoor facility is a great step. Funding the program to make sure they can attract a strong HC and assistants is important (and I don’t know to what extend the Dartmouth MLax program is or is not endowed). Yes, there are differences based on the sport, but Dartmouth’s success in sports like soccer and football to me show that absolutely Dartmouth College could be solidly in the mix within the Ivies and sometimes nationally. Coaching matters — I would argue, for example, that the Harvard coaching staff has probably led an underperforming program given the resources (including recruiting clout) they have had. I don’t know if you feel like you have “your guy” for the long haul — this year looked much improved but it’s been a tough five years record-wise.

One thing that I think has probably helped Yale with recruiting is the track record with Y MLAX alums having a pipeline into Wall Street/finance jobs. Not my career area but we all know the lax/finance link is pretty strong. “Back in the day” did I think about my sports as career access pipelines? No. But college kids in general are much more focused in college on their post-graduation prospects (e.g., importance of internships) and Yale has a really good story to tell on that front and I think it’s a story that is being told and might resonate with some potential student-athletes. I don’t know the extent to which Dartmouth has a similar network but I’ve seen that as something that Yale has had that some big-time historic lacrosse programs might not have to the same extent.

I hope the Big Green does not come out next year and knock off Yale, but it’s better for the league if they are strong and I wish the program all the best.

[The Orfling]

Gallant effort by Dartmouth against Brown today -- Big Green had a second-half lead, played some really great defense, hung tough for three quarters, but they ran out of gas down the stretch. No Ivy win in 2019.

[check sticks]

Gallant effort by Dartmouth against Brown today -- Big Green had a second-half lead, played some really great defense, hung tough for three quarters, but they ran out of gas down the stretch. No Ivy win in 2019.

DISAPPOINTING...not really gallant at all.
Twice had 2 goal leads, and just forgot how to score MORE goals.
A microcosm of this season's utter FAILUREs as they ran around all game with no purpose or apparent systematic offense.
Add to it today's 2/22 in face-offs, along with an anemic man-up only 1-6
(both of those team stats squarely in the bottom 10 of Div 1 lacrosse).
Scored more than 10 goals in only three games this season. That's bad.

No Ivy wins in 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016

[MDlaxfan76]

Gallant effort by Dartmouth against Brown today -- Big Green had a second-half lead, played some really great defense, hung tough for three quarters, but they ran out of gas down the stretch. No Ivy win in 2019.

DISAPPOINTING...not really gallant at all.
Twice had 2 goal leads, and just forgot how to score MORE goals.
A microcosm of this season's utter FAILUREs as they ran around all game with no purpose or apparent systematic offense.
Add to it today's 2/22 in face-offs, along with an anemic man-up only 1-6
(both of those team stats squarely in the bottom 10 of Div 1 lacrosse).
Scored more than 10 goals in only three games this season. That's bad.

No Ivy wins in 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016

I was at a HS game today, so missed this one.
So, just looking at stats: https://dartmouthsports.com/boxscore.as ... &path=mlax

2-22 of FO's, brutal. More than the GB differential overall, but ouch.

On the other hand, only 13 TO's to Brown's 26. That's been a problem, but much better today, or at least relatively?
Looks like we rode well, with Brown clearing just 19 of 27. We were 19 of 23 clears, decent but still a weakness.

The stats say 2 of 5 penalties were scores, which, if accurate, not so bad.

But again the issue of putting shots on net, with just 14 SOG out of 31 taken. By contrast, Brown put 24 on net, 2/3 of 36 taken.

So...I look at that and say, give me just 50:50 at X and that's likely a W.

Seems like that was the case in a lot of games this year.

[seriously?]

Hey, there must be monkey business going on. You can't be smart AND win a championship. So which is it?

Yale success: parents love his no nonsense style with the boys, the teammates treat each other with respect and joy at success, (witness any time a kid scores his first goal and gets welcomed back at the bench), that the education is par excellence, the parents all actually like spending time with each other, and the alums are loyal to Andy back to his early years. Money cannot buy what these boys have. So it's great the Tsai has kicked in some dough to the Yale Lacrosse Association -- which is both women and men -- but it didn't buy a championship.

For the record, there are and always have been walk-ons on the team.

[MDlaxfan76]

Obviously the discussion about Yale's recent outstanding success is relevant on this thread only insofar as it is a demonstration that Ivies can still compete at the highest level nationally. (And most of the discussion has been between various Ivy and/or general lax fans along with Yale fans, not Dartmouth alums).

There had been some question about whether that was still possible. We'll need to see whether Yale's 2018 will be repeated, ala the runs of Cornell and Princeton in their dominant periods, but it's certainly clear that there's a juggernaut in New Haven right now. Most frank observers of the Cornell and PU programs over the decades would agree that AI and recruit allocation were important factors in their successful runs, and, for instance, that a change in the environment at PU was a precipitating factor in Tierney's departure.

Yale had had previous periods of success, but pretty rare. And it took a bunch of years for Shay to build the momentum that led to 2018 and the overall strength of the program we see right now.

Others would know better than I, but my understanding is that there was a combination of $ and AD/admissions support for Yale Mlax that built over a bunch of years, resulting in coaches' salaries and more/better recruits. None of that happened overnight. Rather it was a virtuous cycle of improvement.

It doesn't mean that the AI was drastically changed, and certainly doesn't mean the top of AI spectrum at Yale lax isn't outstanding, but it is highly likely that the program was allocated a bit more latitude in #'s and total range. Both the AD's support in allocation and Admissions' confidence in the HC's judgments are essential. In no way is that "monkey business".

That said, it's interesting to see Yale embracing transfers.

Now that, for the Big Green, this is actually the 'off-season', the huge question is whether the turning point of winning an increasing # of games begins in 2020, or not.

Seems to me there are a number of important pieces in place, but we'll need to see significant contributions from at least a couple of freshmen coming in, as well as hard work in the off-season by the returners.

[MDlaxfan76]

http://www.dartblog.com/images/Enrollme ... Report.pdf

The answer is no on increased enrollment at this time. This letter was a face saving allowance given current president Hanlon after he tried to ram a de facto “Dartmouth College has to become Dartmouth University in order to become NOT Dartmouth in order to keep up with the Jones" vision down the Lone Pine’s trunk. He effectively wanted to gut 250 years of special with one ego stroking moment of misplaced grandiosity. And he’s a Dartmouth grad!!! He should be forced to turn in his Green Card and go Vox in the Deserto with a pack of angry moose for a while until he remembers what it means to be Green, and why trying to be something we're not would be a death knell to what makes us special. Thank goodness the ghosts of Eleazor Wheelock and Daniel Webster rose up (along with a ton of alums, faculty and students), and derailed the Madness of King Phil. I was actually surprised he wasn't shown the door gracefully but firmly after this proposed debacle.

So, that’s my long way of saying “No” to the "is Dartmouth planning on increasing undergrad enrollment numbers" question.

Sam I Am threw Green Eggs and Ham and they landed on someone’s face...

And, yes, I’m a wee bit prickly on this narrowly dodged bullet.

+1

[The Orfling]

Obviously the discussion about Yale's recent outstanding success is relevant on this thread only insofar as it is a demonstration that Ivies can still compete at the highest level nationally. (And most of the discussion has been between various Ivy and/or general lax fans along with Yale fans, not Dartmouth alums).

It doesn't mean that the AI was drastically changed, and certainly doesn't mean the top of AI spectrum at Yale lax isn't outstanding, but it is highly likely that the program was allocated a bit more latitude in #'s and total range. Both the AD's support in allocation and Admissions' confidence in the HC's judgments are essential. In no way is that "monkey business".

That said, it's interesting to see Yale embracing transfers.

@MDlaxfan76, with apologies for hijacking your Dartmouth thread to argue about Yale lacrosse, I am repeating that there was not a change in the AI for Yale lacrosse. That's not speculation or based on the "top of the AI spectrum" -- that's one place where I have actual knowledge from the Yale admin. Tom Beckett agreed to more slots for Y MLAX but did not change their internal AI target. Nor has first-year AD Vicky Chun changed the MLAX AI.

I guess I'd also suggest that just as "one robin does not make a spring," one transfer -- even one of the most impactful in the recent history of men's DI lacrosse -- arguably falls short of "Yale embracing transfers" as an ongoing policy. I guess time will tell. Or maybe transfers are like the old truism that "you can't be a little bit pregnant." If that's the case, maybe an additional solution is for Dartmouth lacrosse to "embrace transfers" like Dartmouth football (QBs in the past 2 years from University of Illinois and University of Florida) and Dartmouth basketball (transfer from Weber State).

[thetruth]

The NCAA publishes public data about the academic progress of each D1 team in every sport. Only 2 Ivy men’s lacrosse teams have perfect scores in each of the past 2 years, Dartmouth and Brown. Only one other Ivy has a perfect score in addition to those 2 one other time in the past few years, Penn. Yale routinely had perfect scores up until 2010 when a steady decline started. Seems to have stabilized recently, but those facts either support a decline in academic standards for admits or a decline in educational focus during their years at Yale. The recent athletics admission scandal involving Yale has put all athletics recruiting under the microscope in New Haven. That is not a good thing for any of their sports.

[MDlaxfan76]

Obviously the discussion about Yale's recent outstanding success is relevant on this thread only insofar as it is a demonstration that Ivies can still compete at the highest level nationally. (And most of the discussion has been between various Ivy and/or general lax fans along with Yale fans, not Dartmouth alums).

It doesn't mean that the AI was drastically changed, and certainly doesn't mean the top of AI spectrum at Yale lax isn't outstanding, but it is highly likely that the program was allocated a bit more latitude in #'s and total range. Both the AD's support in allocation and Admissions' confidence in the HC's judgments are essential. In no way is that "monkey business".

That said, it's interesting to see Yale embracing transfers.

@MDlaxfan76, with apologies for hijacking your Dartmouth thread to argue about Yale lacrosse, I am repeating that there was not a change in the AI for Yale lacrosse. That's not speculation or based on the "top of the AI spectrum" -- that's one place where I have actual knowledge from the Yale admin. Tom Beckett agreed to more slots for Y MLAX but did not change their internal AI target. Nor has first-year AD Vicky Chun changed the MLAX AI.

I guess I'd also suggest that just as "one robin does not make a spring," one transfer -- even one of the most impactful in the recent history of men's DI lacrosse -- arguably falls short of "Yale embracing transfers" as an ongoing policy. I guess time will tell. Or maybe transfers are like the old truism that "you can't be a little bit pregnant." If that's the case, maybe an additional solution is for Dartmouth lacrosse to "embrace transfers" like Dartmouth football (QBs in the past 2 years from University of Illinois and University of Florida) and Dartmouth basketball (transfer from Weber State).

Yes as to "pregnant". It's a big statement of commitment to MLax.

If I'm not mistaken, there's a bit of a difference with redshirt freshmen who haven't played a down coming to an Ivy for 4 years of school and a proven AA transferring for 2 years. I believe the football guys had both redshirted and have 4 years to graduate. The basketball example is closer and he'd played about half a season as a freshman. He transferred to Dartmouth and needed to sit out a year, though practiced with the team.

I'm not saying transfers are inherently wrong, it's just relatively unusual and pose a real question for the Ivies as to what's appropriate and what's not. Which is why I said "interesting".

On the AI, I really don't know where the lacrosse 'target' AI is for Yale MLax, how it stacks up in the hierarchy of various sports. (As you obviously know) each Ivy allocates the overall AI of the school across sports, with different targets by sport and differing #'s on the roster. No matter where it is for Mlax, it would compare very favorably to most any non-Ivy D1 program!

And I mean no critique when saying that, assuming the AI is exactly the same as it had been, that means that if you add 2 players, one on the high end who you don't expect to be one of your studs, you've got room for another one at the tail end of the spectrum. More guys does translate to higher odds of a breakout player and to more depth if injuries.

More $ in a program translates, in part, to being able to support more guys on a roster, more equipment, more trainer access, etc. That includes guys who contribute to the AI, but aren't really expected to see much PT over their 4 years.

I count 49 on the Yale roster, right? Same target AI at 44 players, means 5 more players, 2 of whom at the lower end of the spectrum, one in middle...or it could mean the last 5 on the roster are super high AI allowing those at the bottom to be lower...

Again, this is a choice Yale has made to support the program on a national level. More power to them, but let's not kid ourselves that it doesn't require institutional commitment. And that commitment didn't happen overnight.

[The Orfling]

@MDlaxfan76, as the pollen count goes up, so does my incidence of knee-jerk "grumpy and argumentative" responses. In fairness, and something I had not picked up on in the initial discussion, you make an astute point that one of the key Ivy-specific benefits of a large roster relates to the ability of balancing possibly higher and lower AI recruits. To be a little argumentative still, my sense was that at least some people in this thread-specific discussion seemed to think Yale had both increased its roster size with additional recruited player slots AND lowered its internal Academic Index profile for Men's Lacrosse. The former is true, the latter is not -- so thanks for the clarification.

Re: transfers, I'll admit to being thrilled to get T.D. (who was rumored to be landing at Cornell) and surprised by the transfer. I saw folks speculating (wildly) on another team's forum about a goalie in the transfer portal and whether Yale would be a possible destination, and in that context, I'd be surprised if we see transfers coming into Yale as a more routine occurrence in the future. But I guess time will tell. Not that lacrosse transfers in the Ivies are a new occurrence -- I can think of cases at Cornell, Brown and Penn in recent years (indeed, Penn's addition this spring of Gallagher, the soon-to-be Second Team All-Ivy FOGO, was important to their success this season). And I do feel compelled to say that Yale's greatest national success, the 2018 National Championship, was achieved without any transfer players on the roster. So the transfer of Ierlan is relevant to what Dartmouth may have to contend with going forward (multiple conference foes that have shown they will take transfers in lacrosse) but is not a backward-looking part of Yale's improvement in lacrosse.

Off to take more Claritin.

[b1w7o9y7h]

Hey, Orf, if you do get seasonal allergies, I cannot recommend highly enough to include nasal saline rinsing (netty pot) or equivalent as a ritual - morning and night - which could provide amazing relief for allergies.

On the lax front, this is a very interesting conversation regarding roster sizes, AI's, institutional commitment, transfers, and how sport to sport those can be balanced. Have the Ivy sports powers that be ever thought to standardize AI by team and sport, thus preventing the stacking the deck of individual teams with spill over from other teams at that school.

In addition to Yale's recent lax prowess, they won the men's NCAA D1 hockey national championship in 2013. That's arguably a more gnarly achievement than winning a lax NC - in terms of how many college hockey players go on to play long fruitful careers in the NHL - though I might be wrong there.

Does anyone know if Dartmouth is ever going to get a FOGO or two of note so that part of being perpetually behind the eight ball an be at least evened out a bit in terms of keeping up with the Jones' ?

[thetruth]

The playing field is not level in the Ivies. Harvard, Yale and Princeton have massive advantages because of their ability to offer more significant financial aid packages than the other Ivies. Sure, the other league schools can match but that’s reactive rather than proactive which isn’t a winning strategy but the only one for the others. As a result many top recruits have not only been lost to HYP but also schools out of league who can offer merit based aid (which the Ivies can’t do). This doesn’t even factor in international money (Canadians) where HYP also have a huge advantage over the other league schools as well and much more AI maneuverability. In addition the AI does not level the playing field across specific sports. If a school prioritizes sports outside of men’s lacrosse (ie Dartmouth) then men’s lacrosse will suffer and be at a disadvantage to those other Ivies that prioritize men’s lacrosse (ie Yale). Yale has done a great job but it all starts with a massive endowment and substantial donor support which leads to substantial administrative support and sport specific prioritization. When you combine that with good coaching, a thoughtful alumni base and AD and the strong financial and international aid advantages of a place like Yale then you have a very good chance at succeeding in a big way.

[QuakerSouth]

The Ivies can't offer significantly different financial aid packages. Your "need" is your need. How they meet that need can be different, but I think most Ivies meet 100% of your demonstrated need, and that is with NO loans. The playing field is level. A school's ability---and desire--- to compete on the level is up to them.

As I mentioned a page or two ago, Yale increased its enrollment recently. That enables Admissions/AD to have an increase in "supported" slots. Each team could get an extra player or two per year. That adds up. If Dartmouth chooses to be a certain size, then that is their choice, and the chips will fall where they may as it pertains to each individual sport.

Ivy football is perhaps the most socialistically organized football league in the country. Each school can have 30 supported recruits. Those recruits can fall into one of four academic "bands." Its pretty tight. All the schools go after the same basic pool of players. How they land where is called recruiting. And recruiting is salesmanship on the coaches part, traditions, potential majors offered, location, current history, returning players at one's position, etc. A lot of moving parts. But the recruits must fall into the right bands for each school.

Except for football, each Ivy AD prioritizes what sports are important for their school. Yes, it gets political. Thats life. But if Dartmouth as a school wants to get better at lacrosse, they can employ the tools needed to get there. But it is the implementation of good coaching, good recruiting, good playing, chemistry, etc, etc. Yale didn't just flip a switch and all of a sudden they are national champs. If thats all it took, any school can do what they need to do to flip that switch. But there is so much more that goes into it.

Dartmouth admin could do it if they wanted to. They just don't want to right now for lacrosse. Thats too bad. But thats also life...

[thetruth]

The Ivies can't offer significantly different financial aid packages. Your "need" is your need. How they meet that need can be different, but I think most Ivies meet 100% of your demonstrated need, and that is with NO loans. The playing field is level. A school's ability---and desire--- to compete on the level is up to them.

This is not correct. Each Ivy has its own financial aid packages based on different income levels. It varies by school and HYP offer the most robust packages to those in higher incomes because they have the endowments to do it. There are no special deals for athletes and every admitted student at a particular school must be treated the same way. The league allows other schools to match the more aggressive financial aid packages of HYP if they want a student but the school that can make the original offer has a significant recruiting advantage. There is significant information on the internet about this and I have substantial first hand experience.

[check sticks]

Dartmouth admin could do it if they wanted to. They just don't want to right now for lacrosse. That's too bad. But that's also life...

This topic is BEATEN down. Redirect to Ivy League 2019 thread is suggested...

...but YES, there can be a winning tradition for lacrosse in Hanover. In fact, one exists currently:
https://dartmouthsports.com/news/2019/4 ... -yale.aspx

Six more months until the Men's lax team assembles again, and we'll see if any more "missing pieces" are in place to make another run.
The Callahan runway is very short, indeed.

In the meantime, I want to wish the 6 student-athletes who endured the Dartmouth lacrosse gauntlet 'til the end, ALL THE BEST.
And to quote (sort of) Lord Tennyson, "Tis better to have laxed and lost, than never to have laxed at all"

GBG

[sguy9]

This topic is BEATEN down. Redirect to Ivy League 2019 thread is suggested...

...but YES, there can be a winning tradition for lacrosse in Hanover. In fact, one exists currently:
https://dartmouthsports.com/news/2019/4 ... -yale.aspx

Six more months until the Men's lax team assembles again, and we'll see if any more "missing pieces" are in place to make another run.
The Callahan runway is very short, indeed.

In the meantime, I want to wish the 6 student-athletes who endured the Dartmouth lacrosse gauntlet 'til the end, ALL THE BEST.
And to quote (sort of) Lord Tennyson, "Tis better to have laxed and lost, than never to have laxed at all"

GBG
Top

Thank you. And I was just about to post the article about wlax winning. I believe the incoming group is solid, including at least 2 fogo's.

Does the staff stick it out another year, consistency will absolutely be beneficial. But, how long can you lose as an assistant and still salvage your career? On the other hand, if 2020 is good then they increase their own stock.

Some say lets make a change now, but the question is, who would want the job that is a proven better option? I'm in the camp of, let him finish out his contract (next year?), then if there is vast improvement in '20 you can look at contract extension. But what do I know......

[Dartjd76]

Wlax @ Dartmouth has a much better record than the men...why?