wgdsr wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:02 pm
someone that knows more about the laws and more about gun ownership attitudes can chime in, but for starters:
1) guns are legal if they are registered, and required to be brought in once per year and discharged for ballistics. and upon purchase. otherwise, they are illegal. also, it's required that you report any stolen gun immediately (this is the law already, but emphasizing and maybe it needs to be toughened up).
- now, there are any number of legitimate gripes about slippery slopes here when "the gov't might come to take away your guns". i would expect they could get access to info on your legal purchase from years ago if that was some eventual mission, but say they couldn't... the quid pro quo would have to be law that your registered gun could not be seized for any future law, order, etc. federal or state. never superseded and sealed up by scotus. ironclad. would either side be willing to do this? maybe not or doubtful, but ya never know.
- with the above, i would think it would be a lot less likely that friends or fam would be ok with a firearm in their name out on the streets to do whatever. locking them up in a safe place probably happens more frequently as well.
2) black market - this will thrive in the absence of being able to get guns easily from your pals or burglaries, so how does it get sealed up? how much comes originally from overseas? my guess is a lot. this would take a decent amount of dough. from what i remember from "the wire", some tiny percentage of imported goods ever gets checked. so cash to expand and investigate their port of entry. if the smith and wessons and brownings are also allocating some % of guns to go to anything other than legitimate gun dealers here domestically, i'm sure that could be tracked down if we care to.
3) mail order parts/build your own and dark web - if peeps can find these places, our law enforcement should be able to also. legislation on these specifically if need be.
whomever has good solutions, it will take time. tanker won't shift on a dime. bad solutions... will make things worse. duh.
if "good" gun owners want to help with the solutions for the epidemic of "bad" gun owners, they will have their smart guys or just en masse help with real solutions. benefits everybody.
any and all of this might be garbage or a non-starter. imo, outlawing all guns definitely is, so someone really get on it.
you put the control right in the hands of the folks that a lot of the "good" gun owners fear the most. They really take seriously the idea that the government should be a little worried about an armed citizenry. They see that tension as a vital part of self-governance and a way to make sure it doesn't slip into dictatorship. And, truth be told, I think they are right.
i don't disagree. though at least for the legitimate gun owners...
undergoing background checks thru dealers... is now about 80% of all gun sales, vs 60% 25 years ago. and about 80% of gun owners are ok with universal background checks. so their records, and more and more their bent, is to be ok with the gov't knowing who has what... and they already do, if they care to look it up.
it would help of course if every time a state legislature turns over they didn't try to seize guns in their 1st week on the job.
and all of the above is why, if gun owners could actually get something in return for their side... it'd be a swap they may be ok with.
it is a tough nut to crack.
This country is obsessed with our symbols of freedom - cars and guns.....
and I think if you forced a choice the majority would pick guns over cars.
I suggest we figure out how to reduce the flow of illegal guns before we tackle legal gun ownership.
i was talking about the flow of illegal guns. most were legal at some point. then they were handed off in one way, shape or form... after one or several times over to new owners. 25% + (probably large) part of 43% + part of theft 6% + part of "other" 17%. the cops or ATF aren't going to be in every living room for the handoff.
gun owners, as hoodat and i mentioned, are pretty wary of letting the government know about everything they do and decide with their guns. lest the government then come back and say -- "hey, now i want those guns you told us about." so there needs to be a solution in there somewhere.
illegal flow comes from legal beginnings. if you want them off the street, you either bust into homes/cars, etc. once you think illegal gun owners have them (not a great idea) or need to figure how to disincentivize the legal-to-illegal transaction from ever happening.
below is part of the BOJ survey that the original article was referencing: TABLE 5
Among state and federal prisoners who had possessed a firearm during the offense for which they were serving
time, sources and methods used to obtain a firearm, 2016
Source and method to obtain firearm All prisoners State Federal
Obtained from individual 25.3% 26.0% 20.5%
Purchased/traded from family/friend 8.0 7.9 9.1
Rented/borrowed from family/friend 6.5 7.0 3.0
Gift/purchased for prisoner 10.8 11.2 8.4
Off the street/underground market a 43.2% 43.2% 42.9%
Theft b 6.4% 6.6% 4.7%
From burglary 1.5 1.5 :
From retail source 0.2 : :
From family/friend 1.6 1.8 :
Unspecified theft c 3.1 3.3 1.8
Other source 17.4% 17.1% 20.1%
Found at location of crime/victim 6.9 6.7 7.9
Brought by someone else 4.6 4.7 3.6
Other d 5.9 5.6 8.5
Multiple sources e 2.5% 2.6% 2.0%
Estimated number of prisoners who possessed a firearm, excluding prisoners who did not report source f 256,400 227,100 29,300
Note: Prisoners were asked to report all sources and methods of obtaining any firearm they possessed during the offense, so details may not sum to totals. Each source is included in this table when multiple sources were reported. See Methodology. Percentages exclude missing data. Excludes 10.3%
of state prisoners and 14.1% of federal prisoners who possessed a firearm during the offense and were missing responses on either source or method of obtaining the firearm. These prisoners were excluded either because they did not provide a valid response or they did not receive the questions due to providing an open-ended response to the previous question about type of weapon. See appendix table 6 for standard errors.
: Not calculated. Too few cases to provide a reliable estimate, or coefficient of variation is greater than 50%. a Illegal sources of firearms that include markets for stolen goods, middlemen for stolen goods, criminals or criminal enterprises, or individuals or groups involved in sales of illegal drugs.
b Excludes theft from victim.
c Includes theft where the source could not be identified and theft other than from a burglary, retail location, family, or friend.
d Included if no source specified in the table was reported. Includes sources that did not fit into one of the existing categories, sources for which
there were few responses such as bought online, or if there was not enough information to categorize the source. Examples of other sources include bought from an unknown source or obtained from a friend by an unknown method.
e Includes prisoners who reported multiple sources or methods that fit into more than one of the categories. Each reported source is included in the categories above.
f Includes prisoners who reported they carried or possessed a firearm and prisoners who reported a source or method.
Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics, Survey of Prison Inmates, 2016.
I suggest we figure out how to reduce the flow of illegal guns before we tackle legal gun ownership.
i was talking about the flow of illegal guns. most were legal at some point. then they were handed off in one way, shape or form... after one or several times over to new owners. 25% + (probably large) part of 43% + part of theft 6% + part of "other" 17%. the cops or ATF aren't going to be in every living room for the handoff.
gun owners, as hoodat and i mentioned, are pretty wary of letting the government know about everything they do and decide with their guns. lest the government then come back and say -- "hey, now i want those guns you told us about." so there needs to be a solution in there somewhere.
illegal flow comes from legal beginnings. if you want them off the street, you either bust into homes/cars, etc. once you think illegal gun owners have them (not a great idea) or need to figure how to disincentivize the legal-to-illegal transaction from ever happening.
below is part of the BOJ survey that the original article was referencing: TABLE 5
Among state and federal prisoners who had possessed a firearm during the offense for which they were serving
time, sources and methods used to obtain a firearm, 2016
Source and method to obtain firearm All prisoners State Federal
Obtained from individual 25.3% 26.0% 20.5%
Purchased/traded from family/friend 8.0 7.9 9.1
Rented/borrowed from family/friend 6.5 7.0 3.0
Gift/purchased for prisoner 10.8 11.2 8.4
Off the street/underground market a 43.2% 43.2% 42.9%
Theft b 6.4% 6.6% 4.7%
From burglary 1.5 1.5 :
From retail source 0.2 : :
From family/friend 1.6 1.8 :
Unspecified theft c 3.1 3.3 1.8
Other source 17.4% 17.1% 20.1%
Found at location of crime/victim 6.9 6.7 7.9
Brought by someone else 4.6 4.7 3.6
Other d 5.9 5.6 8.5
Multiple sources e 2.5% 2.6% 2.0%
Estimated number of prisoners who possessed a firearm, excluding prisoners who did not report source f 256,400 227,100 29,300
Note: Prisoners were asked to report all sources and methods of obtaining any firearm they possessed during the offense, so details may not sum to totals. Each source is included in this table when multiple sources were reported. See Methodology. Percentages exclude missing data. Excludes 10.3%
of state prisoners and 14.1% of federal prisoners who possessed a firearm during the offense and were missing responses on either source or method of obtaining the firearm. These prisoners were excluded either because they did not provide a valid response or they did not receive the questions due to providing an open-ended response to the previous question about type of weapon. See appendix table 6 for standard errors.
: Not calculated. Too few cases to provide a reliable estimate, or coefficient of variation is greater than 50%. a Illegal sources of firearms that include markets for stolen goods, middlemen for stolen goods, criminals or criminal enterprises, or individuals or groups involved in sales of illegal drugs.
b Excludes theft from victim.
c Includes theft where the source could not be identified and theft other than from a burglary, retail location, family, or friend.
d Included if no source specified in the table was reported. Includes sources that did not fit into one of the existing categories, sources for which
there were few responses such as bought online, or if there was not enough information to categorize the source. Examples of other sources include bought from an unknown source or obtained from a friend by an unknown method.
e Includes prisoners who reported multiple sources or methods that fit into more than one of the categories. Each reported source is included in the categories above.
f Includes prisoners who reported they carried or possessed a firearm and prisoners who reported a source or method.
Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics, Survey of Prison Inmates, 2016.
Yes. I was just making a rhetorical statement. You can’t book a hotel room or rent a car until a certain age for good reason but kids have access to guns. It’s crazy.
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:14 pm
by old salt
The NASCAR noose was a garage door pull rope that had been in that garage since last OCT. ..
not likely it was a shake shack employee, either. closest one is 45 min away and everything would've melted.
looks like we're tied 1 to 1.
best of 7?
Man...all my life I thought people were being lynched by being hung with a noose. I never knew it was called a garage pull. Bubba Wallace is a goddamn fool. Every garage door must have the exact same garage pull. How he did not know that is beyond me. He is just playing the victim like they all do.
#Defund NASCAR
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:59 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
These NASCAR boys were just having fun with a noose. If Bubba wants to be one of the guys he needs to go along to get along!
not likely it was a shake shack employee, either. closest one is 45 min away and everything would've melted.
looks like we're tied 1 to 1.
best of 7?
Man...all my life I thought people were being lynched by being hung with a noose. I never knew it was called a garage pull. Bubba Wallace is a goddamn fool. Every garage door must have the exact same garage pull. How he did not know that is beyond me. He is just playing the victim like they all do.
#Defund NASCAR
Something certainly smells fishy. Friendly reminder to not have spaces in your hashtags...your kids might jone on you.
not likely it was a shake shack employee, either. closest one is 45 min away and everything would've melted.
looks like we're tied 1 to 1.
best of 7?
Man...all my life I thought people were being lynched by being hung with a noose. I never knew it was called a garage pull. Bubba Wallace is a goddamn fool. Every garage door must have the exact same garage pull. How he did not know that is beyond me. He is just playing the victim like they all do.
#Defund NASCAR
Something certainly smells fishy. Friendly reminder to not have spaces in your hashtags...your kids might jone on you.
Actually that wasn’t a noose. It was a rope used to catch catfish that’s why it smells fishy. Bubba is a snowflake. Every garage pull I have ever seen looks like that. How many garages were there? Didn’t he look at the other pulls in all of those other garages. He Bubba, you ain’t no victim. #defund nascar. Too PC for me
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:01 pm
by a fan
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:14 pm
The NASCAR noose was a garage door pull rope that had been in that garage since last OCT. ..
"On Monday, fifteen FBI special agents conducted numerous interviews regarding the situation at Talladega Superspeedway. After a thorough review of the facts and evidence surrounding this event, we have concluded that no federal crime was committed."
What else do you need to see to understand that your Deep State FBI is at it again, Old Salt?
I recommend Trump name an IP to investigate the corrupt FBI agents to root out the obvious texting between agents telling one another that the noose was "an insurance policy".....
not likely it was a shake shack employee, either. closest one is 45 min away and everything would've melted.
looks like we're tied 1 to 1.
best of 7?
Man...all my life I thought people were being lynched by being hung with a noose. I never knew it was called a garage pull. Bubba Wallace is a goddamn fool. Every garage door must have the exact same garage pull. How he did not know that is beyond me. He is just playing the victim like they all do.
#Defund NASCAR
… man, what do you expect from a sport that only knows how to make left hand turns?
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:33 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:34 pm
by CU77
Sen. Tim Scott played racist and derogatory voicemails he and his staff are receiving to Senate GOP colleagues during a closed-door lunch Tuesday, according to several GOP sources.
…
Following the lunch, Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) tweeted that he was “shocked” to learn about the vile messages Scott received
"On Monday, fifteen FBI special agents conducted numerous interviews regarding the situation at Talladega Superspeedway. After a thorough review of the facts and evidence surrounding this event, we have concluded that no federal crime was committed."
What else do you need to see to understand that your Deep State FBI is at it again, Old Salt?
I recommend Trump name an IP to investigate the corrupt FBI agents to root out the obvious texting between agents telling one another that the noose was "an insurance policy".....
I believed the picture, but Yeah, sure, we needed 15 FBI agents to look at a picture of that garage door from last Oct.
If Strzok & McCabe were still on the job they'd be applying for a FISA warrant to solve this act of terrorism.
This is what the world's premier law enforcement agency was spending their time on.
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:39 pm
by a fan
Well, look at it this way....at least they weren't wasting their time chasing down lie after lie from their suspects at NASCAR. Forcing them to waste thousands of hours that could have been saved if the suspects could say 'good morning' without lying.
.....your sense of humor on this is appreciated.
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:17 pm
by old salt
I just hope those 15 FBI agents weren't diverted from the ongoing Jesse Smollett hate crime investigation.
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:41 pm
by a fan
One can only hope...
Re: Racism in America- Week 4 of Unrest
Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:12 am
by jhu72
So Walmart has announced it is going to stop flying the Mississippi state flag at its stores in Mississippi.
.