Re: The Politics of National Security
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:53 pm
Same Party, Different House
https://fanlax.com/forum/
What kind of munitions have killed the most Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan the past two decades?old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:04 pm Let's do some math. 10 missile strikes on Al Assad with 1500 lb HE warheads.
By way of comparison -- a single F-15E Strike Eagle can deliver 24,000 lbs of precision guided ordnance, return to base & fly another mission in less than 1 hr turnaround time. They usually go in flights of two aircraft, & they hit what they aim for.
SA & Qatar are currently operating (& buying more of) the latest versions of the F-15 Strike Eagle.
Uncontained engine failure on a 737 does not always result in a crash - evidence in 2018 Southwest 1380 LGA-DFW at 32,000 feet caused rapid decompression, damaged the fuselage and wing resulted in one fatality but crew directed successful emergency landing at Philadelphia. While it is possible that such an event could cause a crash it is certainly not a certainty. An airliner should be able to keep flying even if one engine fails, which means pilots normally have time to communicate and recover the aircraft. Very experienced flight crew all with over 10,000 hours of flight time. They never even called a mayday.old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:20 pmPhoto of engine debris at crash site on CNN shows damage to an engine turbine compressor consistent with uncontained engine failure.jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:58 pmDon't think there is any evidence they did? Western Intel agencies at the moment don't believe they did either (see Reuters story). Still could turn out they did. Debris examination should be sufficient to make determination. If I were the Iranians, I would not release the black boxes to any US organization or company. Why should they trust an American defense company?youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:47 pmWhy do you think Iran shot down the plane?jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:41 pmThey have been saying this since early AM east coast this morning.youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:30 pm Timing is impeccable: Iran says it will not give black box of Ukrainian plane to Boeing
Iran's civil aviation organization has said that it will not hand over to Boeing the black box of the Ukrainian airlines flight that crashed shortly after taking off from Tehran's Imam Khomeni Airport on Wednesday morning.
Both black boxes were found Wednesday, Iranian state television has reported. An Iranian official was quoted as saying both boxes were damaged but that it was believed their data could still be retrieved.
If it turns out that they did, it was clearly an accident, caught up in the heat of alert, expecting incoming. Same as the airliner shot down by the US in the straits a few years ago. Good reason for nobody wanting to see war in the region.
Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:41 amUncontained engine failure on a 737 does not always result in a crash - evidence in 2018 Southwest 1380 LGA-DFW at 32,000 feet caused rapid decompression, damaged the fuselage and wing resulted in one fatality but crew directed successful emergency landing at Philadelphia. While it is possible that such an event could cause a crash it is certainly not a certainty. An airliner should be able to keep flying even if one engine fails, which means pilots normally have time to communicate and recover the aircraft. Very experienced flight crew all with over 10,000 hours of flight time. They never even called a mayday.old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:20 pmPhoto of engine debris at crash site on CNN shows damage to an engine turbine compressor consistent with uncontained engine failure.jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:58 pmDon't think there is any evidence they did? Western Intel agencies at the moment don't believe they did either (see Reuters story). Still could turn out they did. Debris examination should be sufficient to make determination. If I were the Iranians, I would not release the black boxes to any US organization or company. Why should they trust an American defense company?youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:47 pmWhy do you think Iran shot down the plane?jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:41 pmThey have been saying this since early AM east coast this morning.youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:30 pm Timing is impeccable: Iran says it will not give black box of Ukrainian plane to Boeing
Iran's civil aviation organization has said that it will not hand over to Boeing the black box of the Ukrainian airlines flight that crashed shortly after taking off from Tehran's Imam Khomeni Airport on Wednesday morning.
Both black boxes were found Wednesday, Iranian state television has reported. An Iranian official was quoted as saying both boxes were damaged but that it was believed their data could still be retrieved.
If it turns out that they did, it was clearly an accident, caught up in the heat of alert, expecting incoming. Same as the airliner shot down by the US in the straits a few years ago. Good reason for nobody wanting to see war in the region.
The fact that the Iranians will not involve Boeing (manufacturer) in any investigation will not help in determining a root cause is a big problem. In fact, the only places that read out and analyze data are in France, UK and USA. If the Iranians are not going to use one of these may never know what occurred and that is not good. Have to believe that there would be ways to run the analysis with Iranians present to insure things being on the up and up. While their skepticism might be understandable, you'd think that the Ukrainians as well as Canadians and other countries with passengers on board would want to convince them to do what's best to determine causation.
For Boeing, another crash of aircraft they made. Even if its not a Max, its troubling and under these circumstances I would want them supervised closely in any investigation anywhere. These are the folks who certified that simulator training on the Max wasn't necessary as a selling point and they just had to do a 180 on that as part of recertification.
I thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:42 am Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html
Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.
Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.
If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.
"forced"???tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:46 amI thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:42 am Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html
Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.
Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.
If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.
Leaders of Ukraine and Canada vow to find cause of crash that killed dozens of their citizensMDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:54 am"forced"??? semanticstech37 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:46 amI thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:42 am Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html
Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.
Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.
If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.
No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.
Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.
However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.
But no one can force them to do anything.
[Sarcasm font] Nah, you must be wrong. There must be international law or treaties requiring cooperation among nations in these types of situations, and we all know Iran wouldn’t break international law or treaty obligations. /[Sarcasm font off]MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:54 am"forced"???tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:46 amI thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:42 am Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html
Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.
Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.
If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.
No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.
Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.
However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.
But no one can force them to do anything.
Well, of course.tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:12 amLeaders of Ukraine and Canada vow to find cause of crash that killed dozens of their citizensMDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:54 am"forced"??? semanticstech37 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:46 amI thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:42 am Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html
Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.
Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.
If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.
No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.
Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.
However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.
But no one can force them to do anything.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -to-boeing
SCLaxAttack wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:49 am[Sarcasm font] Nah, you must be wrong. There must be international law or treaties requiring cooperation among nations in these types of situations, and we all know Iran wouldn’t break international law or treaty obligations. /[Sarcasm font off]MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:54 am"forced"???tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:46 amI thought I heard that since it's a Ukranian plane, Iran could be forced to share information?Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:42 am Good summary here
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/08/iran-pl ... t-752.html
Highly experienced crew who should have been able to deal with an engine failure or, at least communicate with controllers about it. A
Altitude 7,500 ft might have been critical especially if the engine explosion damaged other control systems and electrical power within the plane.
Flight path indicates a turn towards a nearby airport for perhaps an emergency landing.
Relatively new aircraft, only three years old with no record of any kind of issues of any kind in flight or on the ground.
If the Iranians and Boeing cannot come to some sort of agreement on sharing black box data (or even with French or UK analysts) and investigation likely will never know what happened.
No doubt they should do so if they wish to be trusted.
Under the scenario that they made an error and shot the plane down, they should admit the error.
However, if they truly don't believe they did anything wrong, they should release it.
Problem is that they don't trust the US...so, hopefully they will do so with the French.
But no one can force them to do anything.
Rapidly becoming a non-fan.....why say this??Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:41 amOf course. No surprise here. The latest GOP Trump mind-meld victim with no shame - Nikki Haley chimes in with Trumpty Dumpty style BS.
On FauxNews, of course. She is competing with Jeanine Pirro for attention for the cult leader. Pirro (who claims to be lawyer/judge declared that statute of limitations has run out on impeachment articles and it is all over. She must be auditioning to replace Judy Judy!
As Don Jr. displays his new Crusader white supremicist-themed AR-15.
Dopes.
"You don't see anyone standing up for Iran. You're not hearing any of the Gulf members. You're not hearing China. You're not hearing Russia," Haley said.
"The only ones that are mourning the loss of Soleimani are our Democrat leadership, and our Democrat presidential candidates."
Mourning the loss? Jesus.....foreverlax wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:42 amRapidly becoming a non-fan.....why say this??Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:41 amOf course. No surprise here. The latest GOP Trump mind-meld victim with no shame - Nikki Haley chimes in with Trumpty Dumpty style BS.
On FauxNews, of course. She is competing with Jeanine Pirro for attention for the cult leader. Pirro (who claims to be lawyer/judge declared that statute of limitations has run out on impeachment articles and it is all over. She must be auditioning to replace Judy Judy!
As Don Jr. displays his new Crusader white supremicist-themed AR-15.
Dopes.
"You don't see anyone standing up for Iran. You're not hearing any of the Gulf members. You're not hearing China. You're not hearing Russia," Haley said.
"The only ones that are mourning the loss of Soleimani are our Democrat leadership, and our Democrat presidential candidates."
She's a warmonger. Simple.
Pretty much my feeling as well (except the part about voting for Orange Duce). She is just one more Trump lover.a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:42 amShe's a warmonger. Simple.
She's telling her supporters: "why would anyone possibly ask themselves "does this further our goals with Iran? This guy was bad, and we kill all bad men. That's as complicated as it gets".
It's clear Haley would have kept us in Vietnam all this time, using the reasoning "they keep shooting Americans! We can't let them do that!!"
(Psst., hey FoxNation. Libs aren't mourning the death of some General they've never heard of. They're simply worried that this will escalate with Iran, and all the libs want to do is to pull our people out of the Middle East, and out of harm's way.
I'd vote for Trump before I'd vote for Haley. I've read enough of her stupidity now. Hard pass.