LaxPower Back-Up Stick

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

a fan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:23 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:14 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:02 am Was watching Smerconish on CNN this AM, one of the more moderate talking heads on TV...don't always agree with him, but his audience is certainly not the same as some of their other pundits, much an MSNBC audience. Nor a Fox audience. Middle.

He does polls of his audience in real time.

Todays':

Should NATO go to war for Ukraine?

I expected maybe a 20% "yes"...in just 10 minutes the largest response ever in his polls, 38,000 + said 67% yes, 23% no.

He was shocked too.

WOW!!!

Smerconish is a very sane fellow. Don't know I would equate his audience to MSNBC audience. Less left than MSNBC.

And they say we are a peaceful people.

We have learned nothing from 60 years of “optional” war.

We’ve never met a country we didn’t want to invade.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:39 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:23 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:14 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:02 am Was watching Smerconish on CNN this AM, one of the more moderate talking heads on TV...don't always agree with him, but his audience is certainly not the same as some of their other pundits, much an MSNBC audience. Nor a Fox audience. Middle.

He does polls of his audience in real time.

Todays':

Should NATO go to war for Ukraine?

I expected maybe a 20% "yes"...in just 10 minutes the largest response ever in his polls, 38,000 + said 67% yes, 23% no.

He was shocked too.

WOW!!!

Smerconish is a very sane fellow. Don't know I would equate his audience to MSNBC audience. Less left than MSNBC.

And they say we are a peaceful people.

We have learned nothing from 60 years of “optional” war.

We’ve never met a country we didn’t want to invade.

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:26 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:17 am

jhu72 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:14 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:02 am Was watching Smerconish on CNN this AM, one of the more moderate talking heads on TV...don't always agree with him, but his audience is certainly not the same as some of their other pundits, much less an MSNBC audience. Nor a Fox audience. Middle.

He does polls of his audience in real time.

Todays':

Should NATO go to war for Ukraine?

I expected maybe a 20% "yes"...in just 10 minutes the largest response ever in his polls, 38,000 + said 67% yes, 23% no.

He was shocked too.

Smerconish is a very sane fellow. Don't know I would equate his audience to MSNBC audience. Less left than MSNBC.

totally agree...I think I must have dropped a work "less" as in "much less"; fixed above.

A quite moderate audience. Some of the pundits on CNN draw a more left leaning audience, most all on MSNBC do so.

His CNN audience is hardly moderate. The polls in his show consistently skew liberal 2:1
The Ukrainians are no question winning the global video & social media war.
Show poll numbers from 2 weeks ago. Fickle.

A US &/or NATO enforced no fly zone would turn the tide but it's risky, costly & could easily escalate.
We'd have to do it from bases in Germany, Italy. Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, the Baltics, the UK & carriers in the Med & boxed in the Aegean Sea.
Russia has 3 guided missile cruiser in the E Med to threaten the 3 NATO carriers there.
It would be a gutsy call. I don't see all 30 NATO nations saying yes, but it could be a coalition of willing NATO members.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

As I said, they'd be sitting right beside our folks. Under their "control" but under our guidance and training.

But perhaps you're saying that using manned aircraft, flown by NATO (Americans and Brits and French etc) is the better path?

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:39 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:23 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:14 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:02 am Was watching Smerconish on CNN this AM, one of the more moderate talking heads on TV...don't always agree with him, but his audience is certainly not the same as some of their other pundits, much an MSNBC audience. Nor a Fox audience. Middle.

He does polls of his audience in real time.

Todays':

Should NATO go to war for Ukraine?

I expected maybe a 20% "yes"...in just 10 minutes the largest response ever in his polls, 38,000 + said 67% yes, 23% no.

He was shocked too.

WOW!!!

Smerconish is a very sane fellow. Don't know I would equate his audience to MSNBC audience. Less left than MSNBC.

And they say we are a peaceful people.

We have learned nothing from 60 years of “optional” war.

We’ve never met a country we didn’t want to invade.

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

As the Ukrainians have so concisely said, "Fnck the Russians".

To that I would add, "Fnck their apologists and those who claim specialized lore due to ancient history (Cold War)."

Tired of that punk-a&& noise.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

As I said, they'd be sitting right beside our folks. Under their "control" but under our guidance and training.

But perhaps you're saying that using manned aircraft, flown by NATO (Americans and Brits and French etc) is the better path?

It's not "practical" or effectively possible to "give" them our drones at this late date. Are you going to fly a Ukrainian air force officer to a USAF
base in NV to push the button on a drone that is launched by USAF crews from bases in Poland or Germany ? No difference than using US manned aircraft launching & recovering from bases outside Ukraine.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:05 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:39 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:23 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:14 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:02 am Was watching Smerconish on CNN this AM, one of the more moderate talking heads on TV...don't always agree with him, but his audience is certainly not the same as some of their other pundits, much an MSNBC audience. Nor a Fox audience. Middle.

He does polls of his audience in real time.

Todays':

Should NATO go to war for Ukraine?

I expected maybe a 20% "yes"...in just 10 minutes the largest response ever in his polls, 38,000 + said 67% yes, 23% no.

He was shocked too.

WOW!!!

Smerconish is a very sane fellow. Don't know I would equate his audience to MSNBC audience. Less left than MSNBC.

And they say we are a peaceful people.

We have learned nothing from 60 years of “optional” war.

We’ve never met a country we didn’t want to invade.

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

As the Ukrainians have so concisely said, "Fnck the Russians".

To that I would add, "Fnck their apologists and those who claim specialized lore due to ancient history (Cold War)."

Tired of that punk-a&& noise.

Where ya' been summer soldier ? I don't recall you clamoring that the US go to war to defend Ukraine.
I can hear you now when the Russians show a video interview of a downed, captured, injured US pilot.
Biden told us the deal weeks ago. Where ya' been ?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... -grinds-on

U.S. To Bolster Ukrainian Air Defenses As Russian Advance Grinds On (Updated)

Russia has been unable to achieve air superiority nearly three days into its invasion of Ukraine and faces continued resistance on all fronts.

BY JOSEPH TREVITHICK AND TYLER ROGOWAY FEBRUARY 26, 2022
THE WAR ZONE

It has been confirmed that the U.S. shipments will include more Javelin anti-tank missiles, which have already distinguished themselves in this conflict.

U.S. officials, as well as those from other countries in the NATO alliance, had said yesterday that they fully intended to continue delivering weapons and other materiel to the Ukrainian armed forces, which are now in their third day of fighting invading Russian forces.

Stinger shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles, also known as man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS), are the anti-aircraft weapons that would be among the easiest and most practical for American officials to send for reasons The War Zone has explored in detail in the past.

Latvia and Lithuania, both NATO members, had already delivered shipments of Stingers, including pedestal-mounted twin-launcher versions, to Ukraine and had begun training personnel on their use before the conflict erupted. Those Stingers have apparently already been employed with at least some success against Russian forces.

Another possibility is the Polish Piorun, another type of MANPADS that you can read more about here. The Polish government had previously pledged to supply Pioruns to Ukrainian forces with reports stating that these weapons would be exported first to the United States as part of the transfer arrangements.

The reported U.S.-Polish arrangement might also point to the possibility of the U.S. government facilitating the delivery of more substantial air defense systems, including former Soviet types or derivatives thereof that Ukraine might be able to more quickly integrate into its order of battle. Besides air defense systems that use Stinger, the U.S. military does not have any other short or medium-range surface-to-air missiles in inventory that could be available for transfer on short notice to Ukraine.

...they will be a welcome addition to the country's arsenal. Ukraine's existing combat aviation and air defense capabilities have been able to prevent Russia from obtaining complete air superiority. Ukraine claims to have shot down 14 fixed-wing aircraft, including a pair of Il-76 transport aircraft just overnight, as well as eight helicopters, though it has been hard to independently verify these claims.

At least two Russian A-50 Mainstay airborne early warning and control aircraft have been spotted flying from Belarus in the past day or so, which would be critical to the Kremlin's continued efforts to gain control of the skies over Ukraine.

Still, a U.S. defense official said today that Ukraine's air and missile defense forces were "still viable," despite being heavily targeted by Russian forces. American authorities have assessed that, among other things, the Russians have fired approximately 250 individual cruise and ballistic missiles at various targets in Ukraine.

The inability of Russian combat aviation elements to operate in Ukraine with absolute impunity could well be one of the many factors that have already contributed to consistent reports that they are advancing slower than they expected, especially toward the country's capital. Despite fighting on the ground and additional Russian strikes on the city, Kyiv, which is now under a total curfew, was able to emerge this morning still firmly under Ukrainian control.

The U.S. government believes that the Kremlin is "increasingly frustrated" with the overall situation, a U.S. defense official said today. The U.K. Ministry of Defense has now issued a similar assessment.

That being said, Russian forces have continued to press on and have made some significant advances just in the past 12 hours, particularly in the southern portion of Ukraine. Russia claims to have taken the city of Melitopol, which occupies a highly strategic position northeast of the Crimean Peninsula. The exact extent of their control has been disputed, though imagery has clearly shown Russian forces in the city in the past day.

There are some indications that Russia, which is now assessed to have deployed around 50 percent of the forces it amassed around Ukraine in the past few months, might be looking for new ways to break the deadlock in certain areas. A video emerged today showing TOS-1 thermobaric rocket launchers, as well as other heavy artillery, on the move south from Russia's Belgorod region. These weapons could be particularly devastating when employed against dug-in Ukrainian forces in urban areas.
No specific numbers, but Russia has committed 50 percent of troops arrayed on Ukraine's border, up from about 1/3 yesterday, the senior U.S. defense official said.

Their use, especially in population centers, could also significantly raise the risk of collateral damage. Ukrainian authorities, foreign officials, and international organizations have already begun reporting that Russia appears to be at least been attacking in an indiscriminate manner that puts civilians at unnecessary risk. Despite the growing evidence, Russia has denied these claims.

The conflict, overall, shows no signs of abating. Dmitry Peskov, Russian President Vladimir Putin's main spokesperson, said today that Ukrainian authorities had rejected their proposed terms to start negotiations to end the conflict. Ukrainian officials had confirmed that such talks were ongoing as of last night.

At the same time, much of the international community continues to work to put pressure on Russia to end its invasion through sanctions and other means. French authorities notably seized a Russian-owned cargo ship in the English Channel today that is suspected of being in violation of new European Sanctions.

Germany now totally isolated in its opposition to kicking Russia out of SWIFT: Italy, Austria, Cyprus are in favor, Hungary as well according to Poland's PM. Chancellor Olaf Scholz could announce a change of position still this afternoon.

... a Tweet from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky earlier that seemed to say that Turkey had agreed to block Russian warships from passing through two straits that link the Mediterranean Sea to the Black Sea appears to be false and may have simply been a reiteration of a previous Ukrainian request. Through an international agreement, Turkey does have the authority to limit maritime traffic in these areas and impose other restrictions, but cannot prevent warships from making the transit if it is not a party to the conflict in question.
“Turkey hasn’t made a decision to close the straits to Russian ships yet,” a senior Turkish official tells me

The Black Sea has proven to be a particular point of concern when it comes to possible spillover effects from the conflict, with multiple commercial vessels having now been damaged or possibly destroyed in and around this body of water as a result of Russian strikes targeting Ukraine. Russia says that it has destroyed a number of Ukrainian naval vessels as part of these maritime operations.

2 more merchant ships hit by Russian attacks in Black Sea.
Japanese bulk carrier MV Namura Queen hit by a rocket at anchor off Yuzhne.
Moldovan chemical tanker MV Millennial Spirit hit and set on fire 12 miles to the southhttps://t.co/fazJtNvJk6

All told, the conflict in Ukraine continues to evolve rapidly as it progresses through its third day. With Russian forces closing in in larger numbers around Kyiv, tonight could be pivotal to the outcome of the conflict.

#Russia has now deployed TOS-1 launchers to the outskirts of heavily populated areas
Thermobaric weapons against civilian targets have zero military purpose
It would be a war crime aimed at terrorizing & slaughtering people into submission

Big commitments to enhance Ukraine's combat capabilities are flowing in from foreign allies. The timing could be an issue though, but even if Russia sacks the capital, the resulting insurgency will be extremely brutal. Zelensky is also pushing the UN Security Council to qualify Russia's actions in Ukraine as genocide.

It has now been confirmed that Chechnya, a semi-autonomous republic within Russia, has mobilized thousands of additional personnel to support Russia's war on Ukraine. Chechen special operations units have already been spotted taking part in the invasion. BBC News Russian reported today that Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov was among a select few to be involved in Putin's planning for the operation.
Now confirmed by Reuters. Chechen leader, a close Putin ally, says his forces have deployed to Ukraine https://t.co/GYyUGHsQEs

A number of other countries have now announced their own planned deliveries of additional military aid to Ukraine. Most significantly, Germany, which has previously refused to send weapons and other "lethal aid," and has blocked third-party transfers of German weapons, says it will now send Stingers and Panzerfaust 3 unguided anti-tank weapons. The German government will also allow the Netherlands, which is also considering deploying Patriot surface-to-air missiles in NATO territory opposite Ukraine as part of the alliance's own buildup to deter further Russian aggression, to transfer additional Panzerfaust 3s.

Germany will deliver 500 FIM-92 Stinger man-portable air-defense systems and 1,000 Panzerfaust 3 anti-tank weapons to (per German government). Stinger deliveries will have a much bigger impact on this fight than the Panzerfausts.

Belgium and Slovakia are reportedly preparing to send a mix of machine guns, ammunition, and fuel.

Aid rolling into Ukraine now From Belgium: 2,000 machine guns, 3,800 tons of fuel; from Slovakia: 12,000 rounds of 120-mm ammo, 2.64 mil gallons of diesel; from the Netherlands: 400 rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

Separately, the German government says that it is moving toward agreeing on proposed European Union-wide sanctions that would cut Russia off from the SWIFT banking system. Germany is now the only country within that economic bloc that has not agreed with this plan.

“At the same time, we are working flat out on how to limit the collateral damage of a #SWIFT decoupling so that it hits the intended target. What we need is a targeted and functional retrenchment of SWIFT vis-à-vis Russia." AMin @ABaerbock & @BMWK Habeck 2/2
In the meantime, the U.S. government says that Russian forces continue to push in Ukraine along three main axes. American officials have now confirmed an amphibious landing along Ukraine's coast in the Sea of Azov to support Russin advances in the southern part of the country.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:20 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

As I said, they'd be sitting right beside our folks. Under their "control" but under our guidance and training.

But perhaps you're saying that using manned aircraft, flown by NATO (Americans and Brits and French etc) is the better path?

It's not "practical" or effectively possible to "give" them our drones at this late date. Are you going to fly a Ukrainian air force officer to a USAF
base in NV to push the button on a drone that is launched by USAF crews from bases in Poland or Germany ? No difference than using US manned aircraft launching & recovering from bases outside Ukraine.

That's exactly what I'm saying, Salty.
Fly'em wherever needed, sit 'em next to ours, and walk' em through what's needed to knock out tanks and convoys.

Their supply lines are stretched, break that all up.

I'm less sanguine about manned missions, but it may require that...I'd be interested in your more informed perspective on what's actually needed to give the Ukrainians a shot at repelling the Russians successfuly.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:39 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:05 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:39 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:23 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:14 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:02 am Was watching Smerconish on CNN this AM, one of the more moderate talking heads on TV...don't always agree with him, but his audience is certainly not the same as some of their other pundits, much an MSNBC audience. Nor a Fox audience. Middle.

He does polls of his audience in real time.

Todays':

Should NATO go to war for Ukraine?

I expected maybe a 20% "yes"...in just 10 minutes the largest response ever in his polls, 38,000 + said 67% yes, 23% no.

He was shocked too.

WOW!!!

Smerconish is a very sane fellow. Don't know I would equate his audience to MSNBC audience. Less left than MSNBC.

And they say we are a peaceful people.

We have learned nothing from 60 years of “optional” war.

We’ve never met a country we didn’t want to invade.

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

As the Ukrainians have so concisely said, "Fnck the Russians".

To that I would add, "Fnck their apologists and those who claim specialized lore due to ancient history (Cold War)."

Tired of that punk-a&& noise.

Where ya' been summer soldier ? I don't recall you clamoring that the US go to war to defend Ukraine.
I can hear you now when the Russians show a video interview of a downed, captured, injured US pilot.
Biden told us the deal weeks ago. Where ya' been ?

Still equivocating. Still want to defend the Fourth of July in Moscow patriots? GTFOOH. Tired of your smack talk.

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:50 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:20 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

As I said, they'd be sitting right beside our folks. Under their "control" but under our guidance and training.

But perhaps you're saying that using manned aircraft, flown by NATO (Americans and Brits and French etc) is the better path?

It's not "practical" or effectively possible to "give" them our drones at this late date. Are you going to fly a Ukrainian air force officer to a USAF
base in NV to push the button on a drone that is launched by USAF crews from bases in Poland or Germany ? No difference than using US manned aircraft launching & recovering from bases outside Ukraine.

That's exactly what I'm saying, Salty.
Fly'em wherever needed, sit 'em next to ours, and walk' em through what's needed to knock out tanks and convoys.

Their supply lines are stretched, break that all up.

I'm less sanguine about manned missions, but it may require that...I'd be interested in your more informed perspective on what's actually needed to give the Ukrainians a shot at repelling the Russians successfuly.

IMHO if the US did what you are suggesting MD Russia would view this as an act of war, and we would risk serious escalation. Their cyber attacks would focus on US infrastructure, banking; if they are denied swift and power grids.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:52 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:39 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:05 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:39 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 2:23 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:14 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:02 am Was watching Smerconish on CNN this AM, one of the more moderate talking heads on TV...don't always agree with him, but his audience is certainly not the same as some of their other pundits, much an MSNBC audience. Nor a Fox audience. Middle.

He does polls of his audience in real time.

Todays':

Should NATO go to war for Ukraine?

I expected maybe a 20% "yes"...in just 10 minutes the largest response ever in his polls, 38,000 + said 67% yes, 23% no.

He was shocked too.

WOW!!!

Smerconish is a very sane fellow. Don't know I would equate his audience to MSNBC audience. Less left than MSNBC.

And they say we are a peaceful people.

We have learned nothing from 60 years of “optional” war.

We’ve never met a country we didn’t want to invade.

After 3 days of video on social media & cable news, tugging at their heart strings, suddenly nobody fears the Russian military anymore.

As the Ukrainians have so concisely said, "Fnck the Russians".

To that I would add, "Fnck their apologists and those who claim specialized lore due to ancient history (Cold War)."

Tired of that punk-a&& noise.

Where ya' been summer soldier ? I don't recall you clamoring that the US go to war to defend Ukraine.
I can hear you now when the Russians show a video interview of a downed, captured, injured US pilot.
Biden told us the deal weeks ago. Where ya' been ?

Still equivocating. Still want to defend the Fourth of July in Moscow patriots? GTFOOH. Tired of your smack talk.

Compare Ukraine's defense of itself now, compared to when the Russians walked into Crimea & Donbass unopposed.
Obama sent blankets & MRE's.
What you are seeing now is the result of the lethal military aid & US training started by Trump.
...no need to say thanks.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:56 pm

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:50 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:20 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

As I said, they'd be sitting right beside our folks. Under their "control" but under our guidance and training.

But perhaps you're saying that using manned aircraft, flown by NATO (Americans and Brits and French etc) is the better path?

It's not "practical" or effectively possible to "give" them our drones at this late date. Are you going to fly a Ukrainian air force officer to a USAF
base in NV to push the button on a drone that is launched by USAF crews from bases in Poland or Germany ? No difference than using US manned aircraft launching & recovering from bases outside Ukraine.

That's exactly what I'm saying, Salty.
Fly'em wherever needed, sit 'em next to ours, and walk' em through what's needed to knock out tanks and convoys.

Their supply lines are stretched, break that all up.

I'm less sanguine about manned missions, but it may require that...I'd be interested in your more informed perspective on what's actually needed to give the Ukrainians a shot at repelling the Russians successfuly.

IMHO if the US did what you are suggesting MD Russia would view this as an act of war, and we would risk serious escalation. Their cyber attacks would focus on US infrastructure, banking; if they are denied swift and power grids.

yes, that's the risk...but bet on that coming anyway. What we're doing with sanctions and lots of other support is going to draw cyber attacks...and no way Putin thinks this is over if he crushes the Ukrainians. Expect Georgia and the Balkans at a minimum...Finland wants to join NATO? That's an excuse...

He's been quite clear. We just hadn't really been listening before. But we are now, or sure should be.

Fortunately, I think our cyber defenses and resiliency are a heck of a lot better than Russia's , and if I'm not mistaken, we turn off their lights real fast if they f with ours.

Escalation is a HUGE risk. Yes.
But if Ukraine falls easily, expect this to continue to escalate anyway.

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:19 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:56 pm

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:50 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:20 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

As I said, they'd be sitting right beside our folks. Under their "control" but under our guidance and training.

But perhaps you're saying that using manned aircraft, flown by NATO (Americans and Brits and French etc) is the better path?

It's not "practical" or effectively possible to "give" them our drones at this late date. Are you going to fly a Ukrainian air force officer to a USAF
base in NV to push the button on a drone that is launched by USAF crews from bases in Poland or Germany ? No difference than using US manned aircraft launching & recovering from bases outside Ukraine.

That's exactly what I'm saying, Salty.
Fly'em wherever needed, sit 'em next to ours, and walk' em through what's needed to knock out tanks and convoys.

Their supply lines are stretched, break that all up.

I'm less sanguine about manned missions, but it may require that...I'd be interested in your more informed perspective on what's actually needed to give the Ukrainians a shot at repelling the Russians successfuly.

IMHO if the US did what you are suggesting MD Russia would view this as an act of war, and we would risk serious escalation. Their cyber attacks would focus on US infrastructure, banking; if they are denied swift and power grids.

yes, that's the risk...but bet on that coming anyway. What we're doing with sanctions and lots of other support is going to draw cyber attacks...and no way Putin thinks this is over if he crushes the Ukrainians. Expect Georgia and the Balkans at a minimum...Finland wants to join NATO? That's an excuse...

He's been quite clear. We just hadn't really been listening before. But we are now, or sure should be.

Fortunately, I think our cyber defenses and resiliency are a heck of a lot better than Russia's , and if I'm not mistaken, we turn off their lights real fast if they f with ours.

Escalation is a HUGE risk. Yes.
But if Ukraine falls easily, expect this to continue to escalate anyway.

I’m not willing to accept that risk. Is Ukraine the next Afghanistan?
If Ukraine falls what does the UN do?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:29 pm

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:19 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:56 pm

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:50 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:20 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

As I said, they'd be sitting right beside our folks. Under their "control" but under our guidance and training.

But perhaps you're saying that using manned aircraft, flown by NATO (Americans and Brits and French etc) is the better path?

It's not "practical" or effectively possible to "give" them our drones at this late date. Are you going to fly a Ukrainian air force officer to a USAF
base in NV to push the button on a drone that is launched by USAF crews from bases in Poland or Germany ? No difference than using US manned aircraft launching & recovering from bases outside Ukraine.

That's exactly what I'm saying, Salty.
Fly'em wherever needed, sit 'em next to ours, and walk' em through what's needed to knock out tanks and convoys.

Their supply lines are stretched, break that all up.

I'm less sanguine about manned missions, but it may require that...I'd be interested in your more informed perspective on what's actually needed to give the Ukrainians a shot at repelling the Russians successfuly.

IMHO if the US did what you are suggesting MD Russia would view this as an act of war, and we would risk serious escalation. Their cyber attacks would focus on US infrastructure, banking; if they are denied swift and power grids.

yes, that's the risk...but bet on that coming anyway. What we're doing with sanctions and lots of other support is going to draw cyber attacks...and no way Putin thinks this is over if he crushes the Ukrainians. Expect Georgia and the Balkans at a minimum...Finland wants to join NATO? That's an excuse...

He's been quite clear. We just hadn't really been listening before. But we are now, or sure should be.

Fortunately, I think our cyber defenses and resiliency are a heck of a lot better than Russia's , and if I'm not mistaken, we turn off their lights real fast if they f with ours.

Escalation is a HUGE risk. Yes.
But if Ukraine falls easily, expect this to continue to escalate anyway.

I’m not willing to accept that risk. Is Ukraine the next Afghanistan?
If Ukraine falls what does the UN do?

You'd be in that 23% in the Smerconish instant poll I mentioned this AM. I was surprised by the results as I'd certainly have leaned with you, given the potential downsides of an escalation.

The next Afghanistan for Russia?
could be.

The real question is what we can and should do to help Ukraine repel Russia. Whether fast or slow. If slow, that's an awful lot of Ukrainians that are going to die and an awful big refugee issue. The Russians will be very, very brutal as would any puppet regime need to be at this point.

I don't think the UN can or will do anything in this sort of situation, given the veto powers.

It provides an environment where things can be discussed both privately and publicly when all else is broken, but it's not really in a position to handle this one.

NATO is necessary.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:02 pm

Yeah, that's the BS claim that Obama didn't send much...not true,

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:39 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:29 pm

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:19 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:56 pm

lagerhead wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:50 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:20 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:46 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 8:03 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:07 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:13 pm BTW, if we're willing to provide various weaponry and training to Ukrainian insurgents, at what point do we go to drones?

If we were doing so right now, letting Ukrainians operate them, a heck of a lot of tanks could be destroyed.

Weapons carrying drones -- not a capability that can be provided quickly. Requires operator & maintainer training & experience.
They are still combat aircraft.

yup, sit a Ukrainian in the chair next to an operator, let them work the controls and they knock off tanks.

Surely we have such assets near enough...

We'd have to send in US service members &/or contractors. It's a capability that could maybe have been developed starting 6 mos ago, & that's a stretch.

You also need intel & training to maintain situational awareness & to id targets. It is actually more challenging, in that regard, than operating a manned attack aircraft. It's not just plug & play.

You'd probably know better than I do, but I'm not talking about any need to "send in" our guys and gals from anywhere other than whatever base they're currently working from. I don't care if that's in Arizona. Sit the Ukrainian newbie operators in the chair next to them and tell 'em what to do each step of the way.

Maybe there's a need for on the ground intel, but seems to me we can identify Russian tanks and convoys just fine from very far away. Right now that's what's needed to disrupt heavily the assumed easy roll by the Russians.

We're not talking about figuring out which building to hit to kill the enemy terrorist and not the civilians. that'd be a later stage, probably too late.

Ukraine purchased a number of Turkish drones & weapons systems over the past year or so and are allegedly using them to good effect. If the combat footage is real, they're doing some decent damage to Russian forces & armor with them.

I don't know if Ukraine has enough of the Turkish designed drones to make a difference. They made a deal with Turkey a few months ago to produce them in Ukraine. They've employed them in the fighting in the Donbass & they took out 1 artillery position. They're smaller, fly lower & slower, are more vulnerable & carry a less lethal weapon that the Hellfire missile fired by US made drones, which the US has been hesitant to supply for fear of proliferation.

So provide them.

We don't have them. They'd have to come from Turkey.
We use MQ-9 Reapers w/Hellfire missiles & 500# pgm bombs.
Way too sophisticated to maintain & operate to just give to Ukraine.

As I said, they'd be sitting right beside our folks. Under their "control" but under our guidance and training.

But perhaps you're saying that using manned aircraft, flown by NATO (Americans and Brits and French etc) is the better path?

It's not "practical" or effectively possible to "give" them our drones at this late date. Are you going to fly a Ukrainian air force officer to a USAF
base in NV to push the button on a drone that is launched by USAF crews from bases in Poland or Germany ? No difference than using US manned aircraft launching & recovering from bases outside Ukraine.

That's exactly what I'm saying, Salty.
Fly'em wherever needed, sit 'em next to ours, and walk' em through what's needed to knock out tanks and convoys.

Their supply lines are stretched, break that all up.

I'm less sanguine about manned missions, but it may require that...I'd be interested in your more informed perspective on what's actually needed to give the Ukrainians a shot at repelling the Russians successfuly.

IMHO if the US did what you are suggesting MD Russia would view this as an act of war, and we would risk serious escalation. Their cyber attacks would focus on US infrastructure, banking; if they are denied swift and power grids.

yes, that's the risk...but bet on that coming anyway. What we're doing with sanctions and lots of other support is going to draw cyber attacks...and no way Putin thinks this is over if he crushes the Ukrainians. Expect Georgia and the Balkans at a minimum...Finland wants to join NATO? That's an excuse...

He's been quite clear. We just hadn't really been listening before. But we are now, or sure should be.

Fortunately, I think our cyber defenses and resiliency are a heck of a lot better than Russia's , and if I'm not mistaken, we turn off their lights real fast if they f with ours.

Escalation is a HUGE risk. Yes.
But if Ukraine falls easily, expect this to continue to escalate anyway.

I’m not willing to accept that risk. Is Ukraine the next Afghanistan?
If Ukraine falls what does the UN do?

You'd be in that 23% in the Smerconish instant poll I mentioned this AM. I was surprised by the results as I'd certainly have leaned with you, given the potential downsides of an escalation.

The next Afghanistan for Russia?
could be.

The real question is what we can and should do to help Ukraine repel Russia. Whether fast or slow. If slow, that's an awful lot of Ukrainians that are going to die and an awful big refugee issue. The Russians will be very, very brutal as would any puppet regime need to be at this point.

I don't think the UN can or will do anything in this sort of situation, given the veto powers.

It provides an environment where things can be discussed both privately and publicly when all else is broken, but it's not really in a position to handle this one.

NATO is necessary.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, why should NATO be involved? If Russia attacks a NATO member NATO will respond.

Then get rid of the UN! Veto powers in the security council make it ineffective.

I’m fine with sending arms and $$ no troops, consultants or “trainers” we are not the world police.