Johns Hopkins 2021

[Hail to the Victors]

He also has a ton of financial aid to offer recruits—probably more than they'd be getting at similar schools. From what I've heard, the financial aid packages for athletes have been pretty generous lately, even for those already getting partial scholarships.

From what I’ve heard the financial aid taps have been opened wide post Petro in an attempt to assist the new staff navigate the athletic scholarships that were locked up under DP. If that’s true it tells you exactly what the admin(s) thought of the old head coach.

I think we already know exactly what the admin thought of Petro et al.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

IL did a story on Milliman and the team adjusting to life at Homewood during Covid: https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... eam-/56915

One valid point it brings up is that from his time in the Ivy League, he's already used to not practicing much in the fall. The priority right now seems to be less X's and O's and more laying the foundation for a new culture. The guy is saying all the right things IMO under very tough circumstances. Of course we are still very far away from actual games being played but I think there's reason to be encouraged.

Yea I did like this quote from him.

“Feeling like we need to get everything in, and that if not we’re going to fall behind the curve, to me is a mistake in planning. I’ve been in the Ivy League for eight years, the one thing I can come away from that knowing is you don’t need to spend 50 practices in the fall to get something substantial in. It’s more about the chemistry, the team build; the system stuff will come when you get a chance to be there consistently.”

Obviously the jury will be out for a while, but its nice to be excited again. Dave Cottle can stick it up his pasty ass.

How do you know it’s pasty?

[51percentcorn]

From what I’ve heard the financial aid taps have been opened wide post Petro in an attempt to assist the new staff navigate the athletic scholarships that were locked up under DP. If that’s true it tells you exactly what the admin(s) thought of the old head coach.

Ok - so someone is going to have to explain this one to me. You are either operating under the 12.6 scholarships or the Ivy model courtesy of Michael Bloomberg. Right? You can't disguise money to D1 athletes as "need" if you're handing out true athletic scholarships correct? How are they opening the taps? Final point - if the taps were open "wide" wouldn't the recruits be beating down the door at the Cordish Center? I don't have an issue with the '22 class at all but you wouldn't accuse Hopkins of "killing" it like Duke/Cuse and some others.

[wgdsr]

From what I’ve heard the financial aid taps have been opened wide post Petro in an attempt to assist the new staff navigate the athletic scholarships that were locked up under DP. If that’s true it tells you exactly what the admin(s) thought of the old head coach.

Ok - so someone is going to have to explain this one to me. You are either operating under the 12.6 scholarships or the Ivy model courtesy of Michael Bloomberg. Right? You can't disguise money to D1 athletes as "need" if you're handing out true athletic scholarships correct? How are they opening the taps? Final point - if the taps were open "wide" wouldn't the recruits be beating down the door at the Cordish Center? I don't have an issue with the '22 class at all but you wouldn't accuse Hopkins of "killing" it like Duke/Cuse and some others.

great. now hopkins is cheating. with all their other advantages over everyone else.

[HopFan16]

From what I’ve heard the financial aid taps have been opened wide post Petro in an attempt to assist the new staff navigate the athletic scholarships that were locked up under DP. If that’s true it tells you exactly what the admin(s) thought of the old head coach.

Ok - so someone is going to have to explain this one to me. You are either operating under the 12.6 scholarships or the Ivy model courtesy of Michael Bloomberg. Right? You can't disguise money to D1 athletes as "need" if you're handing out true athletic scholarships correct? How are they opening the taps? Final point - if the taps were open "wide" wouldn't the recruits be beating down the door at the Cordish Center? I don't have an issue with the '22 class at all but you wouldn't accuse Hopkins of "killing" it like Duke/Cuse and some others.

I don't know the specifics but I was under the assumption all students were getting more financial aid now thanks to Mr. Bloomberg, so it would be pretty hard to prove any bias toward student-athletes. Maybe that's not the case.

As far as your other point about the recruiting class—the staff has been together for less than six months, they've only been meeting in person for a few weeks, recruits have never seen a practice or a game under the new regime...kind of unfair to compare their very first class months before any actual lacrosse is played to those of Duke/Cuse with their sexagenerian coaches and recent success on the field. Recruits don't have a whole lot to go on if they're wondering what life at Hopkins is going to be like under PM et al—not like they can ask the current team because they don't really know either. That they've gotten who they've gotten—a handful of 4-stars in critical areas (midfield and defense)—speaks pretty well of their sheer ability as recruiters given that disadvantage. And I think that at least partially explains why they haven't "killed it"—the other explanation is that the team was 2-4 last year and needs to show they can get back in the Final Four mix before the next Spallina wants to come on board.

[51percentcorn]

Certainly not my area of expertise but my understanding is that if you receive D1 athletic scholarship money you are pretty much done and the institution can't disguise aid in other forms. You might be OK if the lacrosse player qualifies for a brain dead academic package that every student who qualifies then receives it - i.e. if Hopkins gave money to every student with some level of SATs or some such thing but otherwise you can't give Johnny Lax a 25% athletic scholarship and then say oh - because of x we now have additional funds to give and we're giving some to him because his family needs it. All that money has to count against the 12.6. It's the curse of not being football or basketball. What you could do is abandon the scholarships - say we are now the Ivy League model - and just let the dice roll on what the need-o- meter says for each recruit.

Not criticizing the current staff in any way - merely trying to correlate this supposed "opening of the taps". While many families in lacrosse are very fortunate in terms of finances, money is still money and Hopkins is still a great school with some remaining cache in lacrosse. If somehow all this were true and Hopkins was offering some increased aid level - I think you would see increased interest. Of course - it does seem Milliman realizes he needs smaller classes to shrink the roster.

[wgdsr]

re: financial aid and athletic schollys...
it's either/or per individual, not per team.
jhu can have 12.6 athletic schollys.
jhu can have other players that receive financial aid.

if they have a player that receives both, then it is that money that goes against the 12.6. not every player's fin aid already established.

it's not like bc you have a team with some guys on athletic scholarship that already adds up to 12.6, that anyone else can't receive school financial aid.

fin aid can't be special / diff standard than the rest of the school. given how generous fin aid is at hopkins (go to their calculator), it's a pretty good gig. you could recruit and not even need the 12.6 with a large swath of the demographic.

academic scholarships are the opposite. don't count against if combined w athletic scholly for a student, but must meet the criteria of others at school receiving (usually above average student). which i would assume is rare at jhu lax.

[nyjay]

So in essence, at Hop, what to offer students in terms of scholarships really depends on their family's ability to pay. Well off students, offer them scholarships (even partial ones). Students from families without financial means, don't offer them scholarships (other than 100%) as the need based aid will likely cover thanks to MB. For students in the middle, I guess it's a sliding scale of need vs. % scholarship.

If you're PM, how do you make kids offers on scholarships without seeing their parents 1040's? I guess they make the offer and then run them through the calculator at a later date and if the need based package exceeds the scholarship, they just don't take the scholarship?

[wgdsr]

@hopkins, there's little doubt you don't make a firm offer until you know approx where they are.

if you offer $35 k athletic and then see they'd qualify for $31 fin... you'd have to try to walk back 4 grand. rather than sell them on $31 originally.

you get approx on one end, you can approx on the other / range and firm up later. or you get specifics up front.

[nyjay]

Sounds like a significant complication in recruiting, but have to assume they have it figured out. Oddly (I guess?), this make Hop seem like it should be a mecca for kids coming from families with limited resources. Of course it's hard to tell, but doesn't seem like that's the case in actuality though.

[flalax22]

Sounds like a significant complication in recruiting, but have to assume they have it figured out. Oddly (I guess?), this make Hop seem like it should be a mecca for kids coming from families with limited resources. Of course it's hard to tell, but doesn't seem like that's the case in actuality though.

Well I think that is changing and you can see it with the Koleton Marquis recruitment who I believe is the first (ever?) native player from a reservation to come to Hopkins. I don’t believe the Fox brothers lived on a rez. Petro liked his blue blood MIAA and LI recruits. I’m not sure those locations will be the bread and butter of the new staff.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

All winning. No BS.

[jhu06]

Sounds like a significant complication in recruiting, but have to assume they have it figured out. Oddly (I guess?), this make Hop seem like it should be a mecca for kids coming from families with limited resources. Of course it's hard to tell, but doesn't seem like that's the case in actuality though.

Well I think that is changing and you can see it with the Koleton Marquis recruitment who I believe is the first (ever?) native player from a reservation to come to Hopkins. I don’t believe the Fox brothers lived on a rez. Petro liked his blue blood MIAA and LI recruits. I’m not sure those locations will be the bread and butter of the new staff.

Quint was like a lacrosse broadcasting matisse with his linguistic descriptions of those miaa li recruits work at homewood trying not to hurt the kids and their supporters feelings. He would say hopkins was loaded with offensive kids with excellent stick skills but slow to the ball, aka privileged white kids who weren't athletic, didn't hustle, weren't quick, lacked the d1 physical shape and relied on their pedigree and advanced hs training to help them compete. I'm trying to think who the big ticket scholarship kids were that have opened up $ for milliman and crew. Forry for sure.

[mocking jay]

Doctor Barrister made no effort to learn the facts.

I didn’t say I know a guy who knew a guy. I wrote I knew Bildie and Scott and three members of the 1965 team. I also know players from the class of 69 and they did beat the varsity in a scrimmage. Who played for the varsity os irrelevant. It was a scrimmage but that was the only measure available. The freshmen were better at 2 of 3 d slots, 2 of 3 attack slots and the midfields in general. With all that pseudo knowledge whoever should be able to name the midget midfield.

The kind of thoughts expressed by some are a good example of why the topic has such a poor reputation:

Scott said the reason he did not renew the series with Cuse was because of the Cowan injury. He was furious and ready to cancel the series for the next season but cooler heads prevailed in light of the contract.

Then there is the individual who claims to know about what is happening to n recruiting than Cottle. Please

Mocking Jay is a real bird. Also a hit movie.

What anyone chooses to believe is up to them. All that can be done is to offer reality and so choices are known

[Drcthru]

Doctor Barrister made no effort to learn the facts.

I didn’t say I know a guy who knew a guy. I wrote I knew Bildie and Scott and three members of the 1965 team. I also know players from the class of 69 and they did beat the varsity in a scrimmage. Who played for the varsity os irrelevant. It was a scrimmage but that was the only measure available. The freshmen were better at 2 of 3 d slots, 2 of 3 attack slots and the midfields in general. With all that pseudo knowledge whoever should be able to name the midget midfield.

The kind of thoughts expressed by some are a good example of why the topic has such a poor reputation:

Scott said the reason he did not renew the series with Cuse was because of the Cowan injury. He was furious and ready to cancel the series for the next season but cooler heads prevailed in light of the contract.

Then there is the individual who claims to know about what is happening to n recruiting than Cottle. Please

Mocking Jay is a real bird. Also a hit movie.

What anyone chooses to believe is up to them. All that can be done is to offer reality and so choices are known

In Suzanne Collins' book, The Hunger Games, the mockingjay bird is the evolutionary result of a failed government breeding experiment. ... Though the mockingjay is not a real species, the fascinating trait of mimicry is very real in the wild, as seen in the mockingbird and other animals.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

I see we’ve now moved on to Ornithology 101.

A personal favorite:

BeepBeep

B73229AB-D281-4A18-88DD-0408AC5CA88C.jpeg (109.22 KiB) Viewed 2105 times

[MDlaxfan76]

re financial aid, I think wgdsr's posts are quite accurate and helpful.

I don't think there has been a change in any of this because of the coaching swap out, just that the Bloomberg money is kicking into gear. That was the dramatic change re financial aid, not how the Admin feels about the coaches. Timing is coincidental.

It's indeed complicated, especially with all the uncertainty about who will actually be on rosters this year and next, however over the long haul Hopkins will have a significant advantage versus most peers.

They will have Ivy-level need based financial aid for those who do need significant support PLUS 12.6 for those with relatively little need. They can't mix, but what this means is that far more total $ can be supporting this group.

However, I think that the coaches can't commit the need-based dollars. That needs to come through the Financial Aid office just like the Ivy process. If I'm correct on this part and Hopkins does it like the Ivies, those aid decisions happen after Admissions make a decision. The Coach can point an applicant family at an aid calculator, but he needs to tell the family he can't make the call himself. They need to discuss it with the Aid office, and they typically will not make a firm offer until after Admissions has made their decision.

Over time, confidence will build about how those decisions play out, ala very generously in the Ivies, but the family doesn't have 100% assurance until later.

Hopkins isn't bound by the Ivy process which is based on mutual agreement and commitments within that league, but I suspect that Hopkins will err to this sort of "need-blind" process to maintain the 12.6 scholarships and to keep their faculty satisfied.

There's already some tension about the academic readiness of the men's lax recruits versus the rest of the athletes, and even more tension relative to the overall student body. The gap is much more significant today than it is at Ivies.

I'd think that might tighten some over the next decade. But perhaps not.
I'd think that the Bloomberg money will help.

The slaps at the MIAA recruits remain silly, whether referring to Quint's biases or reflecting someone else's. Way, way too many players out of the MIAA have been top flight AA college players, at every position, over the past decade for anyone to be pooh poohing the MIAA is general...we've been through this way too many times.

At Hopkins, very highly touted recruits from all over the country did not have college careers that met the pre arrival hype. A few have, many haven't. That's simply factual. Unrelated to any league in specific.

That's recruiting and it's development and team culture.
And it's the hype machine, especially the excess exuberance during the Early Recruiting mess.

[jhu06]

I don't follow non lacrosse college sports other than the Playboy top party schools list and so it was news to me yesterday when I saw an interview with the Northwestern SID where he said Rosemont is moving ahead with other sports now starting with hockey.

https://bigten.org/news/2020/10/6/mens- ... eason.aspx

and the rest of the group now. To my understanding not one program in a power conference, b1g, acc etc declined to participate in football when the conference as a whole decided to go ahead and play and it's going to look absurd if/when the signature program in lacrosse does not play next spring while our rivals are playing.

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/college/ ... 7cc31.html

[44WeWantMore]

re financial aid, I think wgdsr's posts are quite accurate and helpful.

I don't think there has been a change in any of this because of the coaching swap out, just that the Bloomberg money is kicking into gear. That was the dramatic change re financial aid, not how the Admin feels about the coaches. Timing is coincidental.

It's indeed complicated, especially with all the uncertainty about who will actually be on rosters this year and next, however over the long haul Hopkins will have a significant advantage versus most peers.

They will have Ivy-level need based financial aid for those who do need significant support PLUS 12.6 for those with relatively little need. They can't mix, but what this means is that far more total $ can be supporting this group.

However, I think that the coaches can't commit the need-based dollars. That needs to come through the Financial Aid office just like the Ivy process. If I'm correct on this part and Hopkins does it like the Ivies, those aid decisions happen after Admissions make a decision. The Coach can point an applicant family at an aid calculator, but he needs to tell the family he can't make the call himself. They need to discuss it with the Aid office, and they typically will not make a firm offer until after Admissions has made their decision.

Over time, confidence will build about how those decisions play out, ala very generously in the Ivies, but the family doesn't have 100% assurance until later.

Hopkins isn't bound by the Ivy process which is based on mutual agreement and commitments within that league, but I suspect that Hopkins will err to this sort of "need-blind" process to maintain the 12.6 scholarships and to keep their faculty satisfied.

There's already some tension about the academic readiness of the men's lax recruits versus the rest of the athletes, and even more tension relative to the overall student body. The gap is much more significant today than it is at Ivies.

I'd think that might tighten some over the next decade. But perhaps not.
I'd think that the Bloomberg money will help.

The slaps at the MIAA recruits remain silly, whether referring to Quint's biases or reflecting someone else's. Way, way too many players out of the MIAA have been top flight AA college players, at every position, over the past decade for anyone to be pooh poohing the MIAA is general...we've been through this way too many times.

At Hopkins, very highly touted recruits from all over the country did not have college careers that met the pre arrival hype. A few have, many haven't. That's simply factual. Unrelated to any league in specific.

That's recruiting and it's development and team culture.
And it's the hype machine, especially the excess exuberance during the Early Recruiting mess.

True, but maybe a more relevant comparison would be JHU Lax to Ivy Football. As you know, Lax is to Hopkins as Football is to most of the Ivies. Even if Cornell lax fans argue that they are an exception to the rule, they also support a first-class Ice Hockey team.

[51percentcorn]

Thanks MD and wg for the clarifications - I was sort of headed in the right direction. I would imagine there needs to be some controls on this to ensure need (or other aid) isn't being handed out to circumvent the scholarship limit. And I would think this would also refute the notion that "taps" have been opened post Petro since that would seem to be a violation unless the taps have been opened for all students (Bloomberg's philanthropy may make this so) AND very few of the 21s and certainly the 22s have even applied much less been accepted and can discuss with Hopkins need based awards.