"The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

[old salt]

Do you think Mattis would work for a CinC he thought was compromised by the Russians & not say anything about it now ??

Absolutely. A Useful Idiot at the very least. He and his team were beyond that, according to the facts in the report.

Yes. Specifically yes. He's a patriot. But he also understands how the residents of Trumpland think.

And what is he going to tell the public, that voters.....ok, some of us...... don't already know?

That Trump is an idiot, with a shockingly limited understanding of things like how America borrows money works?

Or that he has compromised moral and ethical values as well as financial conflicts out the wazoo?

Or that he has people like Kushner who are laughably unqualified doing work in the most complicated and dangerous part of the world? Kush is America's F ing lead diplomat in Saudi Arabia, FFS. You want that guy in charge of how America handles that drone attack?

Mattis knows what the rest of us who reside out of Trumpland knows: It's pointless talking to those of you who reside in Trumpland. Total waste of time. "I like his policies" washes away all sins in Trumpland. Mattis wouldn't be heard by anyone with a little R by their name.

And Mattis is smart enough to understand that. Nothing he or anyone outside of the Republican Congress can do about Trump.

.. ...I didn't ask you two, ...' didn't need to, ...' knew what the answer would be.

So Mattis is just a coward & a bootlicker, who wanted the power, rather than declining to re-enter govt service to serve under a Russian puppet.

[a fan]

Now who's putting words in people's mouths?

Show me where I called Mattis any of those things.

You agree with every word I just wrote, and have said so yourself. Trump is unfit for office. Kush is horribly unqualified. You've said both of these things.


So I ask again: what's the point in Mattis telling the American public what they already know?

THAT is why Mattis didn't say anything about Trump being a useful idiot to Putin.

[old salt]

You're dodging. I'm asking specifically about Trump being compromised by Russia. Not about Kushner or Trump's fittness to serve.

So you think that Mattis would choose to serve under CinC Trump for two years, all while suspecting he was compromised by the Russians, then barely mention Russia in his hierarchy of threats to the US ?

Same question applies to Gen Kelly.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You're dodging. I'm asking specifically about Trump being compromised by Russia. Not about Kushner or Trump's fittness to serve.

So you think that Mattis would choose to serve under CinC Trump for two years, all while suspecting he was compromised by the Russians, then barely mention Russia in his hierarchy of threats to the US ?

Same question applies to Gen Kelly.

Maybe they believe lying is no big deal. Seems to be a common theme from the military contingent on this board. Russians knew he was lying at worse being deceptive at best. That’s compromised.

[old salt]

You're dodging. I'm asking specifically about Trump being compromised by Russia. Not about Kushner or Trump's fittness to serve.

So you think that Mattis would choose to serve under CinC Trump for two years, all while suspecting he was compromised by the Russians, then barely mention Russia in his hierarchy of threats to the US ?

Same question applies to Gen Kelly.

Maybe they believe lying is no big deal. Seems to be a common theme from the military contingent on this board. Russians knew he was lying at worse being deceptive at best. That’s compromised.

That's the answer I expected from you, which is why I did not direct the question to you.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You're dodging. I'm asking specifically about Trump being compromised by Russia. Not about Kushner or Trump's fittness to serve.

So you think that Mattis would choose to serve under CinC Trump for two years, all while suspecting he was compromised by the Russians, then barely mention Russia in his hierarchy of threats to the US ?

Same question applies to Gen Kelly.

Maybe they believe lying is no big deal. Seems to be a common theme from the military contingent on this board. Russians knew he was lying at worse being deceptive at best. That’s compromised.

That's the answer I expected from you, which is why I did not direct the question to you.

Is something factually incorrect?

[a fan]

You're dodging. I'm asking specifically about Trump being compromised by Russia. Not about Kushner or Trump's fittness to serve.

So you think that Mattis would choose to serve under CinC Trump for two years, all while suspecting he was compromised by the Russians, then barely mention Russia in his hierarchy of threats to the US ?

Same question applies to Gen Kelly.

I'm not dodging doodly. I'm giving you a direct answer. Mattis knows what you know. What you are asking Mattis to do is to publicly declare what you yourself wrote on this very forum: Trump is not fit to serve, and that applies to all facets of the job of President. You're acting like fitness to serve as President only applies to photo ops and ribbon cutting ceremonies.

OF COURSE this lack of fitness includes his dealings with Russia. Neither I nor Mattis have evidence that Trump is directly ILLEGALLY on the take with Putin. But that doesn't mean that Trump---and his team---isn't plain as day vulnerable to Putin.


What do you think Mattis thought when he found out about the Kusher-Trump Jr. et. al. meeting with a Russian spy, looking for dirt on Hill?

You think he thought "so what, that's not illegal"? per the Old Salt doctrine?

Or do you think he thought "Oh, *hit, we probably don't want to signal to Putin that the US POTUS is open for any and all manner of kompromat?


Or put another way: do you think everyone, and I do mean everyone, in our intel community have both eyes on Trump and his family for shenanigans?

Or, back to you question: I think Mattis served, and served well BECAUSE he thinks Trump and his family are fully available for Putin, the Saudis, and anyone else who can line their pockets. And ten steak dinners says that Mattis still has dozens of loyal Americans keeping both eyes on the Trump family.

[Trinity]

Flynn, Kelly and McMaster were all caught lying for Trump about serious issues. They were bad as most police chiefs would be given the chance in politics. Mattis acts like Obama is still President and Trump never happened. He might have a strategy. I don’t see it.

Nobody can testify. Answer a subpoena. Produce Grand Jury materials. Everyone needs new and special protections. You tell me—what are they hiding? If their conduct was ethical they would show us, no?

You think Bill Barr thought Obama held this sort of extraordinary power?

[old salt]

You're dodging. I'm asking specifically about Trump being compromised by Russia. Not about Kushner or Trump's fittness to serve.

So you think that Mattis would choose to serve under CinC Trump for two years, all while suspecting he was compromised by the Russians, then barely mention Russia in his hierarchy of threats to the US ?

Same question applies to Gen Kelly.

I'm not dodging doodly. I'm giving you a direct answer. Mattis knows what you know. What you are asking Mattis to do is to publicly declare what you yourself wrote on this very forum: Trump is not fit to serve, and that applies to all facets of the job of President. You're acting like fitness to serve as President only applies to photo ops and ribbon cutting ceremonies.

OF COURSE this lack of fitness includes his dealings with Russia. Neither I nor Mattis have evidence that Trump is directly ILLEGALLY on the take with Putin. But that doesn't mean that Trump---and his team---isn't plain as day vulnerable to Putin.


What do you think Mattis thought when he found out about the Kusher-Trump Jr. et. al. meeting with a Russian spy, looking for dirt on Hill?

You think he thought "so what, that's not illegal"? per the Old Salt doctrine?

Or do you think he thought "Oh, *hit, we probably don't want to signal to Putin that the US POTUS is open for any and all manner of kompromat?


Or put another way: do you think everyone, and I do mean everyone, in our intel community have both eyes on Trump and his family for shenanigans?

Or, back to you question: I think Mattis served, and served well BECAUSE he thinks Trump and his family are fully available for Putin, the Saudis, and anyone else who can line their pockets. And ten steak dinners says that Mattis still has dozens of loyal Americans keeping both eyes on the Trump family.

No. What I'm searching for from Mattis -- (based on his access to intel, his close observations & consultations with Trump on national security issues) -- is some hint that Trump is compromised by Russia.

I already know that Mattis shares my low regard for Trump as a CinC, leader, & statesman, which is why I'm grateful to him, Kelly & McMaster for enduring as long as they did & doing their best to keep Trump pointed in the right direction.

[old salt]

Flynn, Kelly and McMaster were all caught lying for Trump about serious issues. They were bad as most police chiefs would be given the chance in politics. Mattis acts like Obama is still President and Trump never happened. He might have a strategy. I don’t see it.

Nobody can testify. Answer a subpoena. Produce Grand Jury materials. Everyone needs new and special protections. You tell me—what are they hiding? If their conduct was ethical they would show us, no?

You think Bill Barr thought Obama held this sort of extraordinary power?

I'm not asking about ethics. I'm asking about espionage.
Do any of them think that Trump is compromised by the Russians ?

[a fan]

No. What I'm searching for from Mattis -- (based on his access to intel, his close observations & consultations with Trump on national security issues) -- is some hint that Trump is compromised by Russia.

There isn't anything directly linking Trump to illegal work with Putin. If there was, not only would Mattis rat him out.....so would dozens of other Federal employees. We knew this before Mueller started in. But that doesn't mean Trump and his family aren't a useful idiot, wholly compromised to Putin's ends. The list of things they can do that are damaging to America, while totally legal, is a mile long.

You know this. So does Mattis. But there's nothing we can do about it so long as Republican voters---and therefore the Republicans in the Senate---don't care.

I already know that Mattis shares my low regard for Trump as a CinC, leader, & statesman, which is why I'm grateful to him, Kelly & McMaster for enduring as long as they did & doing their best to keep Trump pointed in the right direction.

Yep. Agree 100%

[Typical Lax Dad]

No. What I'm searching for from Mattis -- (based on his access to intel, his close observations & consultations with Trump on national security issues) -- is some hint that Trump is compromised by Russia.

There isn't anything directly linking Trump to illegal work with Putin. If there was, not only would Mattis rat him out.....so would dozens of other Federal employees. We knew this before Mueller started in. But that doesn't mean Trump and his family aren't a useful idiot, wholly compromised to Putin's ends. The list of things they can do that are damaging to America, while totally legal, is a mile long.

You know this. So does Mattis. But there's nothing we can do about it so long as Republican voters---and therefore the Republicans in the Senate---don't care.

I already know that Mattis shares my low regard for Trump as a CinC, leader, & statesman, which is why I'm grateful to him, Kelly & McMaster for enduring as long as they did & doing their best to keep Trump pointed in the right direction.

Yep. Agree 100%

Being compromised ain’t illegal.

[MDlaxfan76]

.. Yes, you inserted Mattis in this thread, in the midst of our discussion about Russiagate, then when asked about it, you continue dodging my question.

Do you think Mattis would work for a CinC he thought was compromised by the Russians & not say anything about it now ?

Which is it ? For over 2 years, was Mattis a corrupt bootlicker who just wanted to have access to power, or a useful idiot for Trimp's Rissian puppet masters ? Was he getting a kick back on military contract fuel sales too ?

...or are you privy to intel on Trump that he's not ?

What part of the word 'agree' do you not understand?

Yes, I don't think Mattis thought Trump was in cahoots with Russia, at least not at the level where he was sure.

Which certainly does not make Mattis a 'useful idiot' for the Russians as it would appear that he was a bulwark, in his role, against various Russian interests.

There was clearly enormous friction between Trump and Mattis. Mattis disagreed, fundamentally, in Trump's approach to the world. He thinks of it as more than Russia, but rather a worldview difference.

But I would indeed be fascinated to know what Mattis actually thought and now thinks about Trump's footsie with Putin. Someday we may know.

OK. Got it -- you don't regard Mattis as a bootlicker or useful idiot.
You're just a better judge of character than he is & you have more knowledge about the situation & have a closer proximity to Trump from which to judge him. Seems reasonable to me. ...but I wouldn't hold your breath awaiting an epilogue from Mattis after Trump leaves office.

Did you see Mattis anywhere say that he thinks Trump is of high moral character, much less a good leader???
If anything, quite the opposite.

He resigned because he couldn't in good conscience continue to work for him, despite whatever good he might continue to be able to do from that position of influence.

Good lord, Salty, get a grip.
You don't have to keep licking the boot yourself.

[MDlaxfan76]

Flynn, Kelly and McMaster were all caught lying for Trump about serious issues. They were bad as most police chiefs would be given the chance in politics. Mattis acts like Obama is still President and Trump never happened. He might have a strategy. I don’t see it.

Nobody can testify. Answer a subpoena. Produce Grand Jury materials. Everyone needs new and special protections. You tell me—what are they hiding? If their conduct was ethical they would show us, no?

You think Bill Barr thought Obama held this sort of extraordinary power?

I'm not asking about ethics. I'm asking about espionage.
Do any of them think that Trump is compromised by the Russians ?

Ok, so you agree that the Trump crew are immensely ethically compromised?

But not "espionage"?

How little do you really know about espionage, Salty?
I realize you have a military background, but evidently you don't understand that the Russians are the ones who are exercising 'espionage' in this situation, with a campaign for President and now a President compromised by their lies and their greed, which the Russians have had in their back pocket. Definition of kompromat.

This does not require Trump to recognize that he's being influenced, 'persuaded' by the reality of his kompromat situation, just that the Russians can squeeze as they wish.

And yes, I suspect, as a fan suggests, that Mattis and others were very uncomfortable with how Trump and Co acted with the Russians, how he attacked NATO, how he blew off allies, how he fought against sanctions, and then slow walked sanctions, etc. Very uncomfortable.

Did they know for a certainty that Trump was in cahoots with Putin? Like you and others, I very much doubt they could have let that go without blowing the whistle. Instead they did their best to do their jobs, to restrain Trump, and in Mattis' case eventually resigned as loudly as anyone has ever resigned from such a position.

[old salt]

.. Yes, you inserted Mattis in this thread, in the midst of our discussion about Russiagate, then when asked about it, you continue dodging my question.

Do you think Mattis would work for a CinC he thought was compromised by the Russians & not say anything about it now ?

Which is it ? For over 2 years, was Mattis a corrupt bootlicker who just wanted to have access to power, or a useful idiot for Trimp's Rissian puppet masters ? Was he getting a kick back on military contract fuel sales too ?

...or are you privy to intel on Trump that he's not ?

What part of the word 'agree' do you not understand?

Yes, I don't think Mattis thought Trump was in cahoots with Russia, at least not at the level where he was sure.

Which certainly does not make Mattis a 'useful idiot' for the Russians as it would appear that he was a bulwark, in his role, against various Russian interests.

There was clearly enormous friction between Trump and Mattis. Mattis disagreed, fundamentally, in Trump's approach to the world. He thinks of it as more than Russia, but rather a worldview difference.

But I would indeed be fascinated to know what Mattis actually thought and now thinks about Trump's footsie with Putin. Someday we may know.

OK. Got it -- you don't regard Mattis as a bootlicker or useful idiot.
You're just a better judge of character than he is & you have more knowledge about the situation & have a closer proximity to Trump from which to judge him. Seems reasonable to me. ...but I wouldn't hold your breath awaiting an epilogue from Mattis after Trump leaves office.

Did you see Mattis anywhere say that he thinks Trump is of high moral character, much less a good leader???
If anything, quite the opposite.

He resigned because he couldn't in good conscience continue to work for him, despite whatever good he might continue to be able to do from that position of influence.

Good lord, Salty, get a grip.
You don't have to keep licking the boot yourself.

What does any of that have to do with espionage or being compromised by Russia ?

[old salt]

Flynn, Kelly and McMaster were all caught lying for Trump about serious issues. They were bad as most police chiefs would be given the chance in politics. Mattis acts like Obama is still President and Trump never happened. He might have a strategy. I don’t see it.

Nobody can testify. Answer a subpoena. Produce Grand Jury materials. Everyone needs new and special protections. You tell me—what are they hiding? If their conduct was ethical they would show us, no?

You think Bill Barr thought Obama held this sort of extraordinary power?

I'm not asking about ethics. I'm asking about espionage.
Do any of them think that Trump is compromised by the Russians ?

Ok, so you agree that the Trump crew are immensely ethically compromised?

But not "espionage"?

How little do you really know about espionage, Salty?
I realize you have a military background, but evidently you don't understand that the Russians are the ones who are exercising 'espionage' in this situation, with a campaign for President and now a President compromised by their lies and their greed, which the Russians have had in their back pocket. Definition of kompromat.

This does not require Trump to recognize that he's being influenced, 'persuaded' by the reality of his kompromat situation, just that the Russians can squeeze as they wish.

Ethically compromised.... by Russia ? I'm asking for proof of the kompromat you kept telling us about.

[old salt]

No. What I'm searching for from Mattis -- (based on his access to intel, his close observations & consultations with Trump on national security issues) -- is some hint that Trump is compromised by Russia.

There isn't anything directly linking Trump to illegal work with Putin. If there was, not only would Mattis rat him out.....so would dozens of other Federal employees. We knew this before Mueller started in. But that doesn't mean Trump and his family aren't a useful idiot, wholly compromised to Putin's ends. The list of things they can do that are damaging to America, while totally legal, is a mile long.

You know this. So does Mattis. But there's nothing we can do about it so long as Republican voters---and therefore the Republicans in the Senate---don't care.

I already know that Mattis shares my low regard for Trump as a CinC, leader, & statesman, which is why I'm grateful to him, Kelly & McMaster for enduring as long as they did & doing their best to keep Trump pointed in the right direction.

Yep. Agree 100%

Mattis made it plain that he disagreed with Trump on pulling out of Syria & the way Trump treated our allies.

He has said nothing about disagreeing with Trump's Russia policies, actions or attempts at outreach.
He supported our withdrawal from the INF treaty.

[old salt]

No. What I'm searching for from Mattis -- (based on his access to intel, his close observations & consultations with Trump on national security issues) -- is some hint that Trump is compromised by Russia.

There isn't anything directly linking Trump to illegal work with Putin. If there was, not only would Mattis rat him out.....so would dozens of other Federal employees. We knew this before Mueller started in. But that doesn't mean Trump and his family aren't a useful idiot, wholly compromised to Putin's ends. The list of things they can do that are damaging to America, while totally legal, is a mile long.

You know this. So does Mattis. But there's nothing we can do about it so long as Republican voters---and therefore the Republicans in the Senate---don't care.

I already know that Mattis shares my low regard for Trump as a CinC, leader, & statesman, which is why I'm grateful to him, Kelly & McMaster for enduring as long as they did & doing their best to keep Trump pointed in the right direction.

Yep. Agree 100%

Being compromised ain’t illegal.

I know Trump stole your lunch money but show us the kompromat.

[Typical Lax Dad]

No. What I'm searching for from Mattis -- (based on his access to intel, his close observations & consultations with Trump on national security issues) -- is some hint that Trump is compromised by Russia.

There isn't anything directly linking Trump to illegal work with Putin. If there was, not only would Mattis rat him out.....so would dozens of other Federal employees. We knew this before Mueller started in. But that doesn't mean Trump and his family aren't a useful idiot, wholly compromised to Putin's ends. The list of things they can do that are damaging to America, while totally legal, is a mile long.

You know this. So does Mattis. But there's nothing we can do about it so long as Republican voters---and therefore the Republicans in the Senate---don't care.

I already know that Mattis shares my low regard for Trump as a CinC, leader, & statesman, which is why I'm grateful to him, Kelly & McMaster for enduring as long as they did & doing their best to keep Trump pointed in the right direction.

Yep. Agree 100%

Being compromised ain’t illegal.

I know Trump stole your lunch money but show us the kompromat.

When you lie and the Russian's know you are lying, but the American public doesn't, you are compromised. You ain't that stupid....BTW, ran into your former coach last night.

[MDlaxfan76]

Flynn, Kelly and McMaster were all caught lying for Trump about serious issues. They were bad as most police chiefs would be given the chance in politics. Mattis acts like Obama is still President and Trump never happened. He might have a strategy. I don’t see it.

Nobody can testify. Answer a subpoena. Produce Grand Jury materials. Everyone needs new and special protections. You tell me—what are they hiding? If their conduct was ethical they would show us, no?

You think Bill Barr thought Obama held this sort of extraordinary power?

I'm not asking about ethics. I'm asking about espionage.
Do any of them think that Trump is compromised by the Russians ?

Ok, so you agree that the Trump crew are immensely ethically compromised?

But not "espionage"?

How little do you really know about espionage, Salty?
I realize you have a military background, but evidently you don't understand that the Russians are the ones who are exercising 'espionage' in this situation, with a campaign for President and now a President compromised by their lies and their greed, which the Russians have had in their back pocket. Definition of kompromat.

This does not require Trump to recognize that he's being influenced, 'persuaded' by the reality of his kompromat situation, just that the Russians can squeeze as they wish.

Ethically compromised.... by Russia ? I'm asking for proof of the kompromat you kept telling us about.

Again, good lord.
If the Russians know a President is lying about something of great importance to the American public, and they have the ability to blow that whistle, that is the definition of kompromat.

We ALL know that was the case with Trump and the Moscow deal, at a minimum.
We also know that was the case with Manafort and polling data.

But lying ain't illegal, nor is being compromised by the Russians.
And, if you are President disclosing classified information, to the Russians is not illegal.
And heck, it's not illegal to meet alone with Putin, no note taker even.