LaxPower Back-Up Stick

51percentcorn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:08 am Let me ask - would anybody on this thread like O'Neill/Spallina/Pietramala to come play for Hopkins? I would.

What point are you trying to make when you list 3 guys who weren't going to be suiting up for Hopkins even if Petro was still the coach?

A couple people on here think we may have got one of those guys in Matt Collison. Don't know anything about him personally but I hope they're right.

flalax22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:16 pm I think it’s safe to say that the new staff is valuing gritty tough skilled kids. I believe you’re going to see a lot less MIAA kids on ‘Wood. That’s not going to sit well with many of the alumni, locals and resident message board critics but if they win people will come around.

Milliman made it pretty clear in his virtual meeting that he wants team players and worker bees. He doesn't care at all what their ranking were coming out of HS. So it's safe to assume we will see perhaps a different class of recruits than what we have been seeing. What matters is that he get them to play together as a team and succeed as a team.

Catbird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:15 am What point are you trying to make when you list 3 guys who weren't going to be suiting up for Hopkins even if Petro was still the coach?

Just citing 3 of the most glaring examples of highly ranked recruits that will almost certainly work out for the teams they play for - not meant to be a criticism of Petro or Milliman. 5* recruits are not necessarily a bad thing. Recruiting rankings are a complicated issue - first off you are trying to evaluate thousands of kids in a niche sport. Second, there's a chicken or the egg thing - did Petro Hopkins get alot of 3/4/5 * because they were or did they get those rankings in part because Petro Hopkins recruited them? Third - related to the second, someone like TX is in a little bit of a tough position - they need access to the college coaches and higher profile high school and club coaches. I don't think DP - as an example - would return alot of phone calls if he read that his recruiting strategy sucked year after year. Instead you have to be a master at complement sandwiches - say 2 great things saddled around maybe the thing that is the issue. But when it comes to the top guys they are often identifiable pretty early on.

It's just an interesting tenor on recruiting fro Hopkins going forward. I think there is alot of truth to the fact that switching coaches affected recruiting in the class of '22 - it clearly did for '21. In addition, Cornell - likely due to its location and winters - draws from a much more geographically concentrated area. 18 kids from NY, 7 from Canada, 7 from New Jersey comprise the Big Red Roster. 1 kid from Maryland. So it will be interesting to see how it proceeds - 5 of the 10 '21 recruits for Hopkins are from NY high schools and of the 4 recruits so far in '22 - Canada/NY/MA and FL as the outlier. Again, not surprising because up until April PM was coaching Cornell and recruiting for Cornell so those were the kids he probably established relationships with. And certainly, because of its unique position and the increased competition Hopkins will see less of the Top 20 recruits. But going forward, PM will certainly have to expand his recruiting horizon and figure out a way to get some of the Top rated kids. We all want to see Epstein healthy and we all would hope that he uses the extra year of eligibility to play 3 more full seasons. I think he might have been highly ranked in his class - not sure.

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:57 am Milliman made it pretty clear in his virtual meeting that he wants team players and worker bees. He doesn't care at all what their ranking were coming out of HS. So it's safe to assume we will see perhaps a different class of recruits than what we have been seeing. What matters is that he get them to play together as a team and succeed as a team.

Please show me the quotes from Petro where he said he wanted individuals not team players and kids that wouldn't put in the work. I missed the Ernie L. press release where Petro said all he cared about was amassing 5 stars. There is no arguing with the last sentence of your post - but the two concepts of high ranked recruits and playing together as a team are not mutually exclusive. Hopkins last national championship team was loaded with 5*s - Rabil/Huntley/Peyser/Boyle etc. The last Final Four team had its share too - Tinney/Stanwicks etc. Who has the reported highest work ethic on the team currently? Yes - the 5* - maybe that's one of the reasons he's a 5*. Petro and Milliman of course will have a different eye on what they see and want from recruits - but I think its safe to assume that if the Epstein/O'Neill/Spallina version of the 2023 class somehow wants to come to Hopkins - he will be welcome.

In addition, Milliman has a tough job on the recruiting front because the one poor thing I believe Petro did for sure was amass too many players period, which means he has alot on his plate in terms of roster admin.

OH - BTW - Milliman wasn't exactly making a silk purse out of a sow's ear at Cornell. Teat was all everything of course - Piatelli was a USA Today 1st team, All American and the ISL player of the year, Michael Long was the New Jersey POY and AA, Cooper Telesco (though likely not recruited by Milliman) had all the high school eye candy (UA AA, US AA, North jersey POY etc.)

stupefied wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:34 am

flalax22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:16 pm

jhu06 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:07 pm a lot of those rankings are based on how much $ kids make-we don't have one of the better wall street pipelines, how happy kids are on campus-daniels hates fun and most kids aren't, how many kids graduate-a lot transfer out because of the pressure, faculty resources-they tell us all the time how we lose ppl to places like duke which pay better, it's surprising we're that high up there. A lot of it I think is because of how good our dc team is at getting $ out of uncle sam, I think we have one of the biggest lobbying budgets in the country.

Onto lax, what are the differences between the kids PM is getting and the ones Petro had and next spring are we going to see another wave of transfers out when petro kids look at incoming PM kids and think maybe they'll play ahead of me?

I think it’s safe to say that the new staff is valuing gritty tough skilled kids. I believe you’re going to see a lot less MIAA kids on ‘Wood. That’s not going to sit well with many of the alumni, locals and resident message board critics but if they win people will come around.

Are you saying MIAA plays a very skilled but less physical brand of hs play than other regions? Have heard that before despite their high national rankings.

If we are making a parallel comparison:

Upstate NY = Canadian Hockey

MD/Midatlantic = Soviet Satellite Soft Figure Skating Hockey

Catbird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:15 am

51percentcorn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:08 am Let me ask - would anybody on this thread like O'Neill/Spallina/Pietramala to come play for Hopkins? I would.

What point are you trying to make when you list 3 guys who weren't going to be suiting up for Hopkins even if Petro was still the coach?

A couple people on here think we may have got one of those guys in Matt Collison. Don't know anything about him personally but I hope they're right.

Dom wasn’t going to Hop, for sure, if his dad was HC? You certain about that?

I am hearing Millman will only recruit players that are okay-ed by the Hopkins faithful. Coach Millman will be sending films to all for input.

If you go by the IL star system, Hop's 2022 class is currently ranked 9th, so not really all that far off pace—and there's still lots of recruiting left to be done. The first wave of commits was absolutely dominated by the ACC schools—even more so than normal. Again, going by IL's star system for consistency: The top 5 2020 classes included only one ACC school; 2021 had two ACCs. This year, however, four are in the top 5 as of today and Duke is not far off.

Perhaps someone like Xanders could shed some light on why that is, or if it's just a coincidence likely to balance itself out over time. One theory is that with no official visits allowed, the ACCs are going to clean up because, on paper, they appear to offer the best balance of what a recruit might be looking for: academics, culture, fun, girls, location, weather (except Cuse), etc. Tough for any school to compete with the "idea" of a UNC. One huge selling point for Hopkins: its modern, lacrosse-only facility with every amenity a recruit could possibly want, can't be seen in person. I've watched the virtual Cordish tour on YouTube—it's fine, but it doesn't do the building justice.

In any event I think this is simpler than some seem to think it is: Petro had decades of relationships with high school and club coaches all over the country—Milliman is no newbie but he's been at this for far less time especially in the Maryland area hotbed. Petro was and arguably remains the most recognizable face on the recruiting trail. It makes zero sense to expect Milliman to start pulling in top 3 IL ranked classes immediately—even if that was his goal, and that clearly is not his goal. There will of course be some overlap between his guys and whom IL deems to be the best (Collison, Trepeta, Didden, so far). Xanders watches more high school and club lacrosse than anyone on the planet who is not a D1 men's lacrosse coach—I generally trust his opinion of kids. No one has a 100% hit rate, but if IL says a kid is going to be good in college, he more often than not is. And coaches more often than not agree with that assessment.

Whitaker and McDonald were both '21s who reclassified into the '22 group—so just three true '22 recuits so far and all of them are 4-stars. Everyone take a deep breath. One could very easily argue this is already going quite a bit better than expected given the previous season and the coaching change.

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:57 am

flalax22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:16 pm I think it’s safe to say that the new staff is valuing gritty tough skilled kids. I believe you’re going to see a lot less MIAA kids on ‘Wood. That’s not going to sit well with many of the alumni, locals and resident message board critics but if they win people will come around.

Milliman made it pretty clear in his virtual meeting that he wants team players and worker bees. He doesn't care at all what their ranking were coming out of HS. So it's safe to assume we will see perhaps a different class of recruits than what we have been seeing. What matters is that he get them to play together as a team and succeed as a team.

That’s the type of coach you want, one that starts everyone at the same point from day one. College lacrosse is a whole new animal. Love hearing this about John Hopkins coaching.

Milliman is a fine pick but it remains to be seen if he’s an upgrade over Petro given his defenses have been lacking as HC and he hasn’t yet accomplished even as much as Tambroni or DeLuca did let alone the level of expectations around here for Hop.

Games are won on the field . UNC would be handed the preseason trophy very often based on the annual rankings of their recruiting classes. Xanders and IL are just one set of eyes who put out their rankings for public consumption. Plenty of scouts with keen eyes sit on sidelines dissecting a expanding pool of talent . Those reports remain private, players may be ranked lower or higher by them and some gems get uncovered . Having a network that assists in all facets is obviously helpful.

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:58 am Milliman is a fine pick but it remains to be seen if he’s an upgrade over Petro given his defenses have been lacking as HC and he hasn’t yet accomplished even as much as Tambroni or DeLuca did let alone the level of expectations around here for Hop.

Yes.

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:46 am

Catbird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:15 am

51percentcorn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:08 am Let me ask - would anybody on this thread like O'Neill/Spallina/Pietramala to come play for Hopkins? I would.

What point are you trying to make when you list 3 guys who weren't going to be suiting up for Hopkins even if Petro was still the coach?

A couple people on here think we may have got one of those guys in Matt Collison. Don't know anything about him personally but I hope they're right.

Dom wasn’t going to Hop, for sure, if his dad was HC? You certain about that?

Well nothings for sure except death and taxes, especially since that reality will now have to be played out in a parallel universe. All the talk the last couple years was that Hop was never on Dom's radar though and we should keep our expectations low. Not sure why the snarky tone was necessary. Sounds like the kid we probably lost due to Petro's firing was Sunderland from CH.

As for accomplishments; Petro had ~2-3 years of head coaching experience total when he was named head coach in 2001? Tambroni was around Cornell for a decade, seems a little bit of an unfair comparison. Did either of them have their team ranked #1 or #2 so young in their career?

On the other hand Koesterer will be coaching the defense, so there is reason to be excited there. Don't think Milliman's CU tenure will make for much useful evidence one way or another of what to expect from Hop's defense next year or in the future.

[quote=HopFan16 post_id=186473

Xanders watches more high school and club lacrosse than anyone on the planet who is not a D1 men's lacrosse coach—I generally trust his opinion of kids. No one has a 100% hit rate, but if IL says a kid is going to be good in college, he more often than not is. And coaches more often than not agree with that assessment.
[/quote]

Got a source for that claim? That has not been my experience talking to coaches, as more often than not I’ve heard “I don’t care what Inside Lacrosse or Xanders has the kid ranked”. The sentiment has been generally very dismissive.

flalax22 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:14 pm

HopFan16 wrote: ↑ Xanders watches more high school and club lacrosse than anyone on the planet who is not a D1 men's lacrosse coach—I generally trust his opinion of kids. No one has a 100% hit rate, but if IL says a kid is going to be good in college, he more often than not is. And coaches more often than not agree with that assessment.

Got a source for that claim? That has not been my experience talking to coaches, as more often than not I’ve heard “I don’t care what Inside Lacrosse or Xanders has the kid ranked”. The sentiment has been generally very dismissive.

How do explain the vast majority of '22 commits to top schools so far being the kids IL has ranked as 3, 4, or 5 stars? Evaluations obviously vary but it seems like the kids many coaches are valuing the most are also the ones very much already on IL's radar.

I'm sure coaches tell people they don't care what IL thinks—and that's likely true in most cases—but that doesn't mean their assessments aren't similar to those of IL and other recruiting platforms like NatLaxFed.

So much to respond to:

(1) TX and the college coaches very much have a symbiotic relationship. And as a result, hard to sort out whether rankings cause commitments or whether commitments (and before that, which kids coaches like) cause rankings. But the ratings and the commitments will most definitely be highly correlated. I think the rankings are best looked at as, more or less, conventional wisdom.

(2) I don't really think PM and the staff either (a) have a significant influence on forming conventional wisdom (yet), while I viewed Petro as probably one of the most important influences on conventional wisdom or (b) due to their own non-traditional journeys, feel particularly bound to follow conventional wisdom. I think (a) will change over time as PM becomes a fixture in the Baltimore scene (which highly influences IL as a result of proximity).

(3) As a result, I think you're going to end up with classes that include a lot of guys who aren't particularly highly rated (and who may or may not turn out to be good college players).

(4) But, as PM proved at Cornell, I think the staff is going to get a fair amount of guys who are very highly rated by conventional wisdom. And I'm hopeful there will be even more of these type of kids at Hop that PM got at Cornell (as Hop is probably an easier sell, even given the lack of instate tuition, which was probably a decent recruiting tool at Cornell for NY kids).

(5) So, while it's been hard watching a ton of commits come off the board without Hop getting quite as many as in the past, I'm optimistic that the recruiting will be fine. Collison seems impressive, and getting a couple of players from NLF clubs and good, well-known and divergent HS programs (Deerfield and public school on LI are worlds apart) is equally impressive.

(6) As for PM himself, he may not have been the most experienced head coach available, but choosing JK and Junior as his coordinators assuages any concerns I have. JK is plenty experienced and successful and will have a lot of control over the D (and importantly, the FO unit). Expect PM and Junior to be a bit more collaborative on O. PM has experience and Junior is Junior. Would expect that to be a successful partnership.

Under Peter Milliman, Johns Hopkins Could See a Fast(ish) Turnaround

https://lacrossebucket.com/2020/09/21/u ... urnaround/

stupefied wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:34 am

flalax22 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:16 pm

jhu06 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:07 pm a lot of those rankings are based on how much $ kids make-we don't have one of the better wall street pipelines, how happy kids are on campus-daniels hates fun and most kids aren't, how many kids graduate-a lot transfer out because of the pressure, faculty resources-they tell us all the time how we lose ppl to places like duke which pay better, it's surprising we're that high up there. A lot of it I think is because of how good our dc team is at getting $ out of uncle sam, I think we have one of the biggest lobbying budgets in the country.

Onto lax, what are the differences between the kids PM is getting and the ones Petro had and next spring are we going to see another wave of transfers out when petro kids look at incoming PM kids and think maybe they'll play ahead of me?

I think it’s safe to say that the new staff is valuing gritty tough skilled kids. I believe you’re going to see a lot less MIAA kids on ‘Wood. That’s not going to sit well with many of the alumni, locals and resident message board critics but if they win people will come around.

Are you saying MIAA plays a very skilled but less physical brand of hs play than other regions? Have heard that before despite their high national rankings.

When Denver won.......don't recall ONE MIAA player that contributed. UNC's championship run? Or even last year, besides the Kelly connection, who from the MIAA plays for the Tar Heels? Not on the roster, but steps on the field?

Regarding the player "rankings".......plenty of folks have tracked the "success", or lack there of ranked players. Same for "clubs". You can start with......

Remember, IL and others don't visit New England to watch games, not even via internet. How did Lincoln Sudbury do against the MIAA gang in summers past? Pretty good. Not bad for a poor, public HIGH school, eh?

Great players everywhere.........possibly the reason why the largest youth group, in the world, told US Lacrosse to pound sand after decades of neglect. MBYLL (mASS Bay youth lacrosse-Eastern Mass ) finally said "no thank you" and self insured. When 30K players, coaches, etc. leave an organization, it should be a wake up call. It wasn't.

51percentcorn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:38 am

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:57 am Milliman made it pretty clear in his virtual meeting that he wants team players and worker bees. He doesn't care at all what their ranking were coming out of HS. So it's safe to assume we will see perhaps a different class of recruits than what we have been seeing. What matters is that he get them to play together as a team and succeed as a team.

Please show me the quotes from Petro where he said he wanted individuals not team players and kids that wouldn't put in the work. I missed the Ernie L. press release where Petro said all he cared about was amassing 5 stars. There is no arguing with the last sentence of your post - but the two concepts of high ranked recruits and playing together as a team are not mutually exclusive.

Petro certainly had terrific team players/workers in Epstein, the Stanwicks, etc. But honestly, I don't think he always had team-first players on the roster in recent years. A lot of times I felt like the team was less than the sum of its parts. It will be some time before we even see PM recruits on the field, so this recruiting debate could go on for years without any real data points.

Every coach wants the team to be more than the sum of its parts. It will be pretty interesting to see how the current players evolve in coming years and how they integrate into the new offensive and defensive concepts. It will also be interesting to see if some highly touted players who didn't live up to their potential under Petro perform under the new staff.

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:32 am Petro certainly had terrific team players/workers in Epstein, the Stanwicks, etc. But honestly, I don't think he always had team-first players on the roster in recent years. A lot of times I felt like the team was less than the sum of its parts. It will be some time before we even see PM recruits on the field, so this recruiting debate could go on for years without any real data points.

That's all fine and you are obviously welcome to that opinion - I am nowhere near close enough to the program to agree or disagree but I will say certainly the problems - IMO - were not caused by Petro's penchant for 5 stars. The primary recruiting problem - again IMO - was the race to fill every recent class with high school sophs/freshmen etc. as soon as possible with the concurrent thought to recruit about 15-18 a year.

Tdemling6 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:36 am Under Peter Milliman, Johns Hopkins Could See a Fast(ish) Turnaround

https://lacrossebucket.com/2020/09/21/u ... urnaround/

Now THIS is a veiled shot at Petro/Benson/Dwan basically arguing that the reason for optimism is primarily weighted towards the new coaching staff. Author took the time to compile some stats to support his argument and I am not sure I disagree with the premise. I have said before, I thought a primary weakness of the Hopkins coaching staff construction was the fact that Petro was both the HC and Defensive Coordinator. Dwan filled valuable roles but were they optimizing the paid staff? In addition, with regards to Benson... ehhh....I haven't heard or seen one post/tweet/article etc. that stated "Hopkins is really going to miss Benson" I do think offensive development of personnel was an issue as well