All things CoronaVirus

[RedFromMI]

Peter Brown wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:06 pm
Whether or not you agree with Ginn’s arguments for, say, reopening schools, people like Ginn are asking some important and detailed questions about what we know about the progress of the coronavirus.

Peter Brown wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:06 pm
But it is unhelpful and hazardous to ignore the real, human costs of protracted lockdowns, which will require increasily strong justifications the longer they drag on.


Peter Brown wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:06 pm
Which if you allow yourself to read and not burn books, was his thesis.

Pete -- That Ginn guy's ideas and argument just suck. That isn't censorship by the lefties. It is the free marketplace of ideas, after review/reflection, deciding that the guy doesn't know what-the-fork he's talking about. And because of the bull shirt assymetry principle, it is a lot easier to create the bull shirt than to (rightly) debunk.

In contrast, this guy (a doc at Yale) makes a somewhat similar argument. But his arguments are just a lot better and (by the way) he's much more qualified. TBD what the marketplace of ideas will say about his take. FYI, I have no idea what Dr. Katz's politics are. But I'd note that his oped was published by the commie pinko NY Times (and later amplified by NYT's Tom Friedman).

So please retire the tired partisan ax grinding. If you want to engage over ideas, bring it. And if I disagree with you, it will be because of your facts or logics. Not your partisan slant.

Let me know your thoughts on Katz's views. I myself am quite concerned about the economic cost of curing this disease.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opin ... Position=2

I believe his approach would require a level of organization which I don't believe our current federal government is actually capable of. And in addition, probably much more testing than we are capable of at first.

We have let this situation get out of hand, and because we don't know the real level of infected carriers, it may be too late to try something like his approach. Trump for the most part has tried to foist too much of the responsibility on the states - I think so he can blame them when the wheels really come off.

Now the current briefing seems to be a good portion of Trump touting that we cannot just shut down the entire country (which actually has not happened yet). I cannot help but believe that having to shut down his hotels in FL/NJ/etc have to be weighing on him.

Now if you had gotten preparations earlier, you could do more selective shutdowns and better contact tracing to tamp down outbreaks locally. But I am afraid the numbers say we are in for a world of hurt with respect to the virus...

[Trinity]

Don’t need a 2 Trillion rescue if we’re going back to work April Fools Day.

[Peter Brown]

Peter Brown wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:06 pm
Whether or not you agree with Ginn’s arguments for, say, reopening schools, people like Ginn are asking some important and detailed questions about what we know about the progress of the coronavirus.

Peter Brown wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:06 pm
But it is unhelpful and hazardous to ignore the real, human costs of protracted lockdowns, which will require increasily strong justifications the longer they drag on.


Peter Brown wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:06 pm
Which if you allow yourself to read and not burn books, was his thesis.

Pete -- That Ginn guy's ideas and argument just suck. That isn't censorship by the lefties. It is the free marketplace of ideas, after review/reflection, deciding that the guy doesn't know what-the-fork he's talking about. And because of the bull shirt assymetry principle, it is a lot easier to create the bull shirt than to (rightly) debunk.

In contrast, this guy (a doc at Yale) makes a somewhat similar argument. But his arguments are just a lot better and (by the way) he's much more qualified. TBD what the marketplace of ideas will say about his take. FYI, I have no idea what Dr. Katz's politics are. But I'd note that his oped was published by the commie pinko NY Times (and later amplified by NYT's Tom Friedman).

So please retire the tired partisan ax grinding. If you want to engage over ideas, bring it. And if I disagree with you, it will be because of your facts or logics. Not your partisan slant.

Let me know your thoughts on Katz's views. I myself am quite concerned about the economic cost of curing this disease.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opin ... Position=2

I’m supposed to debate you when your deeply reflective summary of Ginn is: ‘his ideas suck’?

There appear to be some very bright Silicon Valley tech peers of his who have come to his paper’s defense.

Shouldn’t we ask you your academic and professional qualifications first before I assume your ability to qualify others is just?

Also, I don’t subscribe to the NYT; copy and paste please.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

i wasnt really watching closely but did DJ Trump start asking questions to the media at his own press conference?

[Trinity]

He punted. It’s up the governors. He’ll be working against them. The free press is mean. I miss anything?

[Peter Brown]

What I actually do care about is when the Left reflexively targets ideas, publications, articles, and even people, simply because that person has postulated something that flies in the face of the Left's preferred outcome.

Fascinating that you see data analysis (with truly life-and-death consequences) through the lens of political ideology. It doesn't matter to you whether that data analysis was valid or not, whether people would live or die or not. What matters to you is that you perceive those who disagreed with it as being on the left.

And you profess to love the free market, but when free-market actors used the methods of the free market to bring about a desired outcome (with no involvement by the government at all), then you cried foul. Because apparently free markets only work when they deliver the outcomes that you want.

It is truly fascinating that you are apparently incapable of recognizing the internal contradictions of your own thinking.

. You’re kidding, right? Merely commenting on a relatively fascinating very independent thought piece is ‘partisan’?

How many times do you need me to say here that I could not care less if Medium took his piece down? 100x?

I’m more fascinated by the Left’s embrace of totalitarianism vis suppression of speech and information. Sorry but that intrigues me!

Tell me when the Right accosts a press secretary at a restaurant or a majority leader in his driveway, or a google engineer who says something positive about the left, or shoots up a group of Democrats at a softball game. I’ll wait!

[Trinity]

Wartime president surrendered today.

[MDlaxfan76]

What 'moron' wouldn't know what the FDA is?
Much less one who ANYONE would consider electable for President.

I missed your post from earlier (I am trying to retrace these pages to be sure I've answered anyone; a fan gets very prickly when I don't )

I'd say Trump is that moron who wouldn't know what the FDA was. I've absolutely zero doubt he never paid even a minute's hard attention to the FDA prior to this.

I think you think I'm a Trumper, which I'm most certainly not. There's so much of him I do not like, mostly character-wise. He's not suited for this crisis at all. However, and there's 'always' a 'however', this guy always seems to find a way to survive; if he hangs in long enough, this whole crisis may end up lifting him up. You can say his voters are abetting him, but I think it's far more nuanced than that, plus disrespectful to his supporters, who are (If need reminding) your fellow countrymen.

PB, I don't know whether you really are a Trumper or not (I'll take your word for it, of course), but you sure do have a pattern of saying extreme things about the "Left" and all sorts of excuses for the ineptitude and grotesque corruption of Trump himself and his sycophants.

I have tons of respect and empathy for many Trump voters, many of whom I think really don't know better than what they pumped through to by FoxNation, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Just as there are those who have a very different media bubble can be unaware of other perspectives. But when the overlap between truly bizarre conspiracy theories and 'beliefs' and hunches is equated with actual facts and truth and expertise, as has become the norm in much of that hard right media world, I come down on the side of facts and truth and expertise.

As to "disrespectful", it's the hard right Trumpist 'base' that I refer to when I say something actually disparaging about that group having nativist, xenophobic, racist tendencies. Because they do.

Of course, not all Trump voters are the same. But when folks like me are disparaged by too many of them for our being moderate Republicans, RINO's and worse, just because we are conservative in many ways but progressive on social issues...and don't support Trump, I'm certainly not going to hold back on identifying where we see the world differently.

[wgdsr]

maybe someone can enlighten me... why would facebook have 700,000 masks?

all the big techs bring in so much cash they don't know what to do with it.
they invest in lots of businesses and become their own p/e firm.

[Cooter]

These people are about to try to lift social distancing. No way in hell are people going back to business as usual in one week. We were the last place to go social distancing, and not even the whole country, and we will be the first to exit.

Hopefully we will exit these policies soon.

[Peter Brown]

maybe someone can enlighten me... why would facebook have 700,000 masks?

all the big techs bring in so much cash they don't know what to do with it.
they invest in lots of businesses and become their own p/e firm.

Just to be sure, their pr answered this question today. They bought the masks for their employees in light of the California wildfires last year.

[Typical Lax Dad]

These people are about to try to lift social distancing. No way in hell are people going back to business as usual in one week. We were the last place to go social distancing, and not even the whole country, and we will be the first to exit.

Hopefully we will exit these policies soon.

Kuda,

Hopefully we understand the threat and how to keep the population safe soon. The sooner that happens, the sooner we can get back to some sense of normalcy.

[Peter Brown]

Democrats Worried Stimulus Bill Will Stimulate the Economy.

https://babylonbee.com/news/dems-worrie ... te-economy

(satire or reality, hard to tell tbh)

[Cooter]

These people are about to try to lift social distancing. No way in hell are people going back to business as usual in one week. We were the last place to go social distancing, and not even the whole country, and we will be the first to exit.

Hopefully we will exit these policies soon.

Kuda,

Hopefully we understand the threat and how to keep the population safe soon. The sooner that happens, the sooner we can get back to some sense of normalcy.

I'm sort of thinking that flattening the curve will actually lengthen the amount of time we have to live like this.
Also, lengthens that amount of time that elderly people have to try to shelter themselves from society.

[MDlaxfan76]

Supporting Trump and the Republicans is tantamount to a betrayal of the American people.

DocBarrister

For the neverTrumpers and Dems here, DocB is one of you. Just a casual observation.

The above is from a guy whose party's pride in America stands at 22% of their members (for their part, Republicans have always had significantly more pride in America than their counterparts, even during years when Democrats controlled the highest office in the land...see graphs in the link)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/259841/ame ... ystem.aspx

Yep. Docs a partisan, just like you. Annoying, isn’t it?

As for pride in America, Trump and His party think so little of America that their slogan and mantra is “make America great again”, telling Americans and the world that our country is no longer great.

Any other partisan drivel while you’re playing the grammar school “only my party loves America” nonsense ?

Something brilliant like Dems kick puppies and hate grandmothers?

Aren’t I the guy who tells his pals that Barack Obama was a “great” president? Also Bill Clinton?

Could you tell me how you define partisan again?

We definitely missed you doing so...wonder why

[njbill]

Re cruise lines: many are based in Florida so Trump’s concern is with Florida employees/voters.

Now you have it!

"Cruise line employees" (Deck Crew, Cruise Directors, Disc Jockeys, Expedition Leaders, Hosts and Hostesses, Naturalists, Shore Excursion Managers, Water Sports Instructors, Youth Counselors, Cosmetologists, Fitness Directors, Medical Staff, Bartenders, Gift Shop Clerks, Photographers, and about 1000 other positions) = not real people to JHU72 and njbill, just 'Republican voters'.

I'd venture to guess that the breakdown of party identification for cruise ship employees runs about 90% Democrat/10% Republican, on the Republicans best day.

I keep getting told that the Dems are the "smart" ones here?

It's easy, pay the employees unemployment. Help them find jobs when the crises is over. The cruise ships will still be there. Ownership may change. Maybe the next round of owners will do a better job. You guys like kicking the Chinese around for their role in this, but love the Cruise Ship owners. No cognitive disonnance there.

I don't know why I am defending this industry, because I hate cruise ships, so I hate to break it to you but the cruise industry is a tad more complex than your unemployment solution. Those massive ships don't like to sit idle for extended periods of time; among a million other items on a ship, the engines need to be kept operational at all times unless they are in port for repair. Otherwise, debilitating costs to restart later on.

Perhaps you missed the fact that my initial post was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Question. Why is it that Trump keeps mentioning the cruise line industry when he talks about specific industries that need saving? Where do you think its importance ranks in the US economy? Top 100? I could list scores of other industries that are more important to this country. So could you.

Sure, I have sympathy for the employees who hopefully will be covered by the package the Congress is trying to put together. Hopefully they will get some relief from that.

I see no reason why the owners should get money from the Mnuchin slush fund, however. They can borrow money at rock-bottom interest rates (secured by their ships) to keep their fleet maintained while they are sitting idle. Don’t know what the cost of that would be, but it surely is a fraction, probably a small fraction, of their usual operating costs.

So tell me again why Trump keeps saying the cruise ship owners need a bail out? Hmm. Maybe someone should investigate how many of them are his Mar-a-Lago buddies.

[Typical Lax Dad]

These people are about to try to lift social distancing. No way in hell are people going back to business as usual in one week. We were the last place to go social distancing, and not even the whole country, and we will be the first to exit.

Hopefully we will exit these policies soon.

Kuda,

Hopefully we understand the threat and how to keep the population safe soon. The sooner that happens, the sooner we can get back to some sense of normalcy.

I'm sort of thinking that flattening the curve will actually lengthen the amount of time we have to live like this.
Also, lengthens that amount of time that elderly people have to try to shelter themselves from society.

Time will tell

[calourie]

Cooter, a huge impetus for flattening the curve is to allow our health system time to get up to speed so it doesn' get overwhelmed by this vrius spreading at a steep curve rate. If we can't stay ahead of the curve there will be a considerably greater number of deaths among not only the aged by virtue of the spread of coronavirus but also among other age groups suffering from various other maladies because there won't be enough hospital beds to treat any number more treatable diseases if those resourses were exhausted by an ongoing surge in Covid-19 .

[MDlaxfan76]

These people are about to try to lift social distancing. No way in hell are people going back to business as usual in one week. We were the last place to go social distancing, and not even the whole country, and we will be the first to exit.

Hopefully we will exit these policies soon.

Kuda,

Hopefully we understand the threat and how to keep the population safe soon. The sooner that happens, the sooner we can get back to some sense of normalcy.

I'm sort of thinking that flattening the curve will actually lengthen the amount of time we have to live like this.
Also, lengthens that amount of time that elderly people have to try to shelter themselves from society.

Yes, flattening the curve does mean longer, but not overwhelming the health system is priority #1. Otherwise, break down of society level if the health system breaks.

How do we come out of the lock down period?
Only possible when either a vaccine or enough testing capacity that we can actually surveillance isolate and selectively quarantine instead of blanket.
And the latter becomes feasible only if we choke the virus back to low levels.

Here's the problem: we definitely aren't doing enough to choke it off because too many people are not participating 100%.

and they're being told not to worry, this is all gonna be better in a few weeks...

[Brooklyn]

. You’re kidding, right? Merely commenting on a relatively fascinating very independent thought piece is ‘partisan’?

How many times do you need me to say here that I could not care less if Medium took his piece down? 100x?

I’m more fascinated by the Left’s embrace of totalitarianism vis suppression of speech and information. Sorry but that intrigues me!

Tell me when the Right accosts a press secretary at a restaurant or a majority leader in his driveway, or a google engineer who says something positive about the left, or shoots up a group of Democrats at a softball game. I’ll wait!

Suppression of free speech/information? You mean like tRUMP's calling CNN "fake news" and refusing to answer their questions or to allow them access to news conferences? Or the radical right's attacks and threats on the Dixie Chicks?

Accosting someone? You mean like Republican Greg Gianforte 'body slamming' a Guardian reporter in Montana and having tRUMP praising him for doing so?

Shooting up people? You mean like right wing hero Timothy McVeigh blowing up a building killing 168 people and maiming others?

Charlottesville? Gordon Kahl? Eric Rudolph? Shoot 'em up at a synagogue or black church in South Carolina? Voter suppression in the South, gerrymandering?

Sorry pal, but it's the delusional right wing that has long embraced totalitarianism.