Israel and Zionism

[jhu72]

So Bibi today turned down an Arab peace plan. Arabs offered to pay to rebuild Gaza, establish a new, younger governing coalition in Gaza, to move forward with the Abraham Accords and all they want in return is an agreement that Palestine (Gaza) is an independent country at some point TBD in the future. US has agreed to this. Bibi said NO, no additional negotiation, no sounds interesting, JUST NO!!

BIBI HAS GOT TO GO!!

[jhu72]

So Bibi today turned down an Arab peace plan. Arabs offered to pay to rebuild Gaza, establish a new, younger governing coalition in Gaza, to move forward with the Abraham Accords and all they want in return is an agreement that Palestine (Gaza) is an independent country at some point TBD in the future. US has agreed to this. Bibi said NO, no additional negotiation, no sounds interesting, JUST NO!!

BIBI HAS GOT TO GO!!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in ... d0ac&ei=70

[jhu72]

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.

The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.

This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.

... Israel knows better. Like the US military doesn't have more recent experience in killing dug in Muslim terrorist while trying to minimize civilian casualties. (this from early November meetings)

[jhu72]

Israeli physicians told not to talk to UN commission investigating Oct 7 atrocities. Seems a strange order, given this is about the day where so many atrocities were committed against Israelis. In reading the article I get the sense the Israeli government brands everyone that doesn't agree with the Israeli "party line", antisemitic.

[cradleandshoot]

So my question would be what should the world do knowing that Hamas is holding these about 100 hostages, give Israel permission to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they would like, until all the hostages are free??

Simple. The World should stop behaving as if this is all Israel's fault, and yell at Hamas to release the hostages so that a fair cease fire can happen immediately. You see anyone that isn't Jewish marching in the street, demanding that the hostages get returned?

The world is saying: we don't care about these Israeli hostages, and we don't acknowledge the fact that Hamas is the crew that started this current war.

In short, the world should be screaming at Hamas. They're not.

So what signal does this send to Israel? It's saying: "we don't care about your people, we just care about the Palestinians, and we're going to pretend like you started this current war".

And folks wonder why the Israelis could give a fig about World opinion. The above is why. I'm having a hard time blaming them for not listening.

... there certainly are people "screaming" at Hamas -- the western governments are tightening the screws. There are Americans marching in the streets for Israel. There are people marching in the streets for Israel in other western nations. My government is spending tax dollars with ME ground deployments, with Aircraft Carrier task force deployments, for military aircraft deployments. At the highest levels, the US clearly supports Israel. This is not enough. Every voice must be raised in support?

Let's not confuse people who don't totally buy Israel's "spin" with people who don't support Israel in the main. Same for supporting the return of the hostages.

I fully expect Israel not to listen to the world.

So when the hostages are all released or dead, what then? How many Palestinians will you allow to be killed by the Israelis??

Why do you think Hamas has NO Effing plans to release the hostages anytime soon?? They are the only leverage they have. If they do decide to release the hostages then US is their best next option. Even if that happens the Israelis will have to carry on with the destruction of 400 plus miles of tunnels and pockets of resistance hiding in the rubble of blown up buildings. War is hell doc and the rules of a civilized society don't apply.

[cradleandshoot]

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.

The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.

This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.

This is where your degree in physics should come in handy for you. Big bombs are more effective than little bombs when the targets are hiding in subterranean reinforced tunnels constructed to protect the people hiding out in them. The icing on the cake is locating those structures under hospitals, schools and mosques etc so you can bemoan the deaths of innocent Palestinians. You don't seem to be bothered by that all that much. All of your energy is focused on your hatred for Bibi. So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.

[Matnum PI]

... So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Israelis, even the more left leaning, want Bibi to finish the war... and then leave. Bibi is not popular right now within Israel. Corruption aside, 10/7 happened on his watch despite his insisting that he's the only one that can protect the people of Israel. He will not be re-elected, he's done, but... Before he leaves, might as well put this stink on him. War is awful. At times, jaw-droppingly awful. And sometimes necessary.

[njbill]

So is it his incentive, then, to continue the war, hoping that somehow, someway his political fortunes will turn around?

[cradleandshoot]

... So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Israelis, even the more left leaning, want Bibi to finish the war... and then leave. Bibi is not popular right now within Israel. Corruption aside, 10/7 happened on his watch despite his insisting that he's the only one that can protect the people of Israel. He will not be re-elected, he's done, but... Before he leaves, might as well put this stink on him. War is awful. At times, jaw-droppingly awful. And sometimes necessary.

I wonder what new leader is anxious to inherit this mess? Finishing this war will take a very long time and will only become more difficult as it drags on. I wonder how Hamas was able to construct such a sophisticated system of tunnels right under the Israelis noses? I know that Israel knew they were there. They apparently didn't know just how elaborate they are. At the end of the day I hope Hamas is eradicated as much as possible and Gaza becomes the land that Palestinians can call their homeland.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

At the end of the day I hope Hamas is eradicated as much as possible and Gaza becomes the land that Palestinians can call their homeland.

Amen.

[Baducchi]

I wonder what new leader is anxious to inherit this mess? Finishing this war will take a very long time and will only become more difficult as it drags on. I wonder how Hamas was able to construct such a sophisticated system of tunnels right under the Israelis noses? I know that Israel knew they were there. They apparently didn't know just how elaborate they are. At the end of the day I hope Hamas is eradicated as much as possible and Gaza becomes the land that Palestinians can call their homeland.

At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, the Jews are and will always be at war. Especially in the Mideast. There needs to be some form of resolution with relation to the hostages. There needs to be mass destruction to remove the tunnels and the ability for Hamas to attack the Israelis. There needs to be a relatively clear abolishment of Hamas within Gaza including the demise of the Hamas leaders who are outside of Gaza. Once this is accomplished. which should take years, not decades, Israel can go back to their usual wars.

[PizzaSnake]

So, is this Bibi’s solution?

“There are today more than half a million children in the primary and secondary school system. How will they go back if you cannot bring people back to their homes which have been completely destroyed," Mr Lazzarini tells me.
"And I'm afraid that we're running the risk here of losing a generation of children."
Images of Israeli troops cheering as educational institutions were blown up went viral on social media, including one showing the complete demolition of a distinctive blue UN school in northern Gaza.”

Horrific, but, ultimately successful.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68023080.amp

[a fan]

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.

The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.

This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.

... Israel knows better. Like the US military doesn't have more recent experience in killing dug in Muslim terrorist while trying to minimize civilian casualties. (this from early November meetings)

Civus romanus. A policy as old as man. Great storyline in West Wing. In the end, Pres. Bartlet choses the path you are advocating, the right path, the moral path....proportional response. Netanyahu is choosing Civus romanus. The low road. The immoral path.

Which path did Hamas take?

[youthathletics]

I Will Put My Name There...

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I Will Put My Name There...

WOW! Remarkable. Thank you so much for posting this!

[jhu72]

Interesting Times of Israel Article

[jhu72]

Yes, that's a fair statement that many Americans, though only some quite heavily and most less so, experienced that trauma. And it had a real effect. And some "counterproductive" decisions, too.
There are all sorts of of traumas that people experience, indeed most people know someone who has experienced major traumas, if not directly. Often, though, we are unaware of the traumas someone we know suffered.
Sometimes these traumas are super personal, eg rape, incest, assault, etc...others are more communal, mass murder events, police violence, mob riots, etc...some are based in ideologies that target and terrorize wide swaths of people based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender...

... I think the trauma of 911, and America's reaction to it led to nothing but bad decisions. in the short term.

The trauma of 9/11 vs. the generational trauma that Jews have experienced is dramatically different. For that matter, the trauma the Palestinians have faced and are facing vs. the generational trauma of the Jews is dramatically different. My point isn't to have a trauma contest. I just don't want to lose sight of the depth and breadth of the trauma that Jews have and continue to experience. There's a reason why the Jews need Israel. The need for the Jews to have Israel is a deep, deep, very real need.

.... so the depth of that need should of course exempt Israel of any blame, accountability for the number of Palestinians killed in this war. I am not buying that, and its pretty clear fewer and fewer people in the world are willing to buy that. Israel has already lost the PR phase of the war or very close to it.

Well then my original question still stands. How much violence is too much? Hamas obviously planned and prepared for this massacre for a long time. They deliberately set up import tunnel and strategic facilities right where it put the Palestinians people in greatest danger. You have no problem with them locating them under hospitals, schools, mosques and other locations that would inevitably put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. They knew damn well what the Israeli response would be. It was exactly as brutal as it needed to be. The Israeli army underestimated how many tunnels there are. Over 400 miles of tunnels in a narrow strip of land 6 miles wide and 25 miles long. That is one hell of an engineering feet. I wonder where they got the heavy equipment and technology to pull that off? The vast majority of Palestinians either didn't know or condoned what Hamas was doing by keeping their mouths closed. War is hell and innocent people will die in large numbers. Many more are yet to die. If your aware of a better way to root out the Hamas terrorists who planned and executed this massacre then please share it. They planned this for a very long time. The fact they had the foresight to booby trap many of these sophisticated tunnels took a long time and took a lot of thought. Hell in some sections the explosives were built into the walls. They got the results they wanted. They arranged it so their fighters are totally blended in with the Palestinian people. These casualties are something Hamas planned and actually is vital to their success.

The funny thing about blaming all Palestinian deaths on Hamas, you know how you and lots of others claim Hamas were holding Palestinian's hostage and this is what caused their death. The bulk of the aerial bombs used were 1000 and 2000 lb bombs according to US intelligence. That's a lot of bomb for a densely populated city if you are trying to kill Hamas and spare the innocent Palestinians. Big F*ing bombs! US Military had advocated for 250 lb and in fact at the start of the war had shipped them a supply of 250s. Think they have stopped using 2000s based on blowback from US military.

This according to CNN, NYT and Business Insider in early November. Lots of articles from all over the place since early November through January.

This is where your degree in physics should come in handy for you. Big bombs are more effective than little bombs when the targets are hiding in subterranean reinforced tunnels constructed to protect the people hiding out in them. The icing on the cake is locating those structures under hospitals, schools and mosques etc so you can bemoan the deaths of innocent Palestinians. You don't seem to be bothered by that all that much. All of your energy is focused on your hatred for Bibi. So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.

... the US military disagrees that using bigger bombs is the way to go. Precision 250s are what the US military is calling for. Speaking of physics even your limited education should be able to understand bigger bombs make bigger holes and in a high population density battlefield kills a lot more people!! By the way, the 2000 ibs bombs where not precision deliver types. The 250s US gave Israel are.

[jhu72]

... So what is the strategy Israel employs in the war in Gaza when Bibi is gone?? The war isn't going away and the next leader of Israel will still have to deal with it. Any solution has to give the Israeli people the assurance that Hamas will never be able to repeat what Hamas did on October 7.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Israelis, even the more left leaning, want Bibi to finish the war... and then leave. Bibi is not popular right now within Israel. Corruption aside, 10/7 happened on his watch despite his insisting that he's the only one that can protect the people of Israel. He will not be re-elected, he's done, but... Before he leaves, might as well put this stink on him. War is awful. At times, jaw-droppingly awful. And sometimes necessary.

... see the Times of Israel Article I posted above.

[youthathletics]

Interesting Times of Israel Article

Respectfully, most all wars are like this in the past 50 years. There is no real binary ‘capture the flag’ winner. It’s just perpetual conflict with ebb and flows of violence.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I Will Put My Name There...

It's always fascinating to discover the precise design of God and the significance of what He chose to reveal about Himself. For instance, in the book of Exodus, 25th chapter, verse 10 and following, Moses is instructed by God to make the Ark of the Covenant, and other tabernacle/temple items from Acacia wood some 1500 years before the arrival of the Christ. Pictured are branches from an Acacia tree.