ESPN Crew is Unlistenable

[wgdsr]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

[MDlaxfan76]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

They beat Harvard.
Beat OSU, there's no question, no need to whine.

you can take your whine schtick and move along, my guy.

ohh, I didn't mean you...I'm referring to the thread topic, the ESPN lax-bro crew.

You do agree that OSU beat Harvard? And ND beating OSU would have moved a loss into the w column, including the match-up comparison?

[Typical Lax Dad]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

Ok. Do you have that link I am looking for?

[MDlaxfan76]

This thread has lost the point made a few pages back and is instead rehashing, for the second week now, the committee's decision to put more value on ND's failure to beat a top team out of the ACC than on its late season 6 game run beating Syracuse twice, Duke twice, Marquette and UNC.

The point that was made is that Q, Carc, and Anish spent the days after the tourney selection trashing the tournament because ND was left out. It is one thing to say the committee, in their opinion (because that is all it is) made a mistake by leaving ND out over - say Harvard. It is quite another to say the tournament has been undermined by leaving out a "bubble" team. That doesn't "grow the game." Those kind of comments undermine the showcase event for growing the game. That is the problem here. It's not the committee leaving out ND. It is the voices of the sport making that alleged snub into the biggest story of the tournament instead of the tournament itself.

The point some of us are trying to make is that there have been snubs every year - some of them pretty bad. The only difference this year is that the snub is not impacting an Ivy team or a Rutgers, but is impacting one of the media favorites -an ACC team and media darling ND team. That doesn't make the alleged snub worse for an objective fan. It apparently makes it worse for the ACC fan boys in the lax media and some on this board, but the mystery is why? Regardless, trashing the entire tournament and the 18 teams 700+ players that are playing in the first full tourney since 2019 is inexcusable.

The committee applied the stated criteria differently to ND than it did to other teams like Harvard. For a normal bubble team, that would be bad luck and lead to some grousing a la 2019 Cornell (who had less room to complain than 2022 ND). The committee pretended that Harvard had quality wins and ND did not because Duke was magically devalued without reference to the rules.

In this case, the committee's haphazard application has raised so many hackles because ND is not just a normal bubble team--it's a team that could have competed for the national championship. In the past, bubble teams were not reasonably expected to have a shot at making the Final Four. Leaving out a team that earned a slot (based on universal application of the pre-tournament criteria) and had a shot at winning does cheapen the overall tournament, especially to an objective fan. I say this as someone who dislikes Corrigan, by the way.

In the likely event Maryland wins, at least their accomplishments this season will not be diminished, no matter how much the committee tarnished the field with its machinations.

What if Maryland loses?
(I don't think they will)

Seriously, on what basis can you claim that ND would have been there on Memorial Day or even Final 4 Saturday? They did not beat any of the tournament bound teams, two of which they lost to have already lost their first round match-ups. Only two left that they played all season are in the final 8. Only one will be in the Final Four.

I'm not arguing that there wasn't a case for them to be in the tourney as a bubble team, but claiming they'd be in the Final Four, much less Memorial Day, with any sort of confidence, is belied by their in-season performances...

Want to be in the tourney, win more games.
Don't lose all the games against the teams which do well.

Don't let it be a question.

[bearlaxfan]

Who are the number-crunchers here? Any of them willing to run an ACC Tourney simulation and see how RPI is affected between UVa, UNC, ND, and Duke depending on tourney results? I know RPI isn't the only criterion, but are there tourney results that seem to point to more than 1 ACC team getting in; different RPIs and now 'good' wins?
Is anyone asking who decided against a tourney? The coaches? Admins? Coaches + admins?

[random observer]

This thread has lost the point made a few pages back and is instead rehashing, for the second week now, the committee's decision to put more value on ND's failure to beat a top team out of the ACC than on its late season 6 game run beating Syracuse twice, Duke twice, Marquette and UNC.

The point that was made is that Q, Carc, and Anish spent the days after the tourney selection trashing the tournament because ND was left out. It is one thing to say the committee, in their opinion (because that is all it is) made a mistake by leaving ND out over - say Harvard. It is quite another to say the tournament has been undermined by leaving out a "bubble" team. That doesn't "grow the game." Those kind of comments undermine the showcase event for growing the game. That is the problem here. It's not the committee leaving out ND. It is the voices of the sport making that alleged snub into the biggest story of the tournament instead of the tournament itself.

The point some of us are trying to make is that there have been snubs every year - some of them pretty bad. The only difference this year is that the snub is not impacting an Ivy team or a Rutgers, but is impacting one of the media favorites -an ACC team and media darling ND team. That doesn't make the alleged snub worse for an objective fan. It apparently makes it worse for the ACC fan boys in the lax media and some on this board, but the mystery is why? Regardless, trashing the entire tournament and the 18 teams 700+ players that are playing in the first full tourney since 2019 is inexcusable.

The committee applied the stated criteria differently to ND than it did to other teams like Harvard. For a normal bubble team, that would be bad luck and lead to some grousing a la 2019 Cornell (who had less room to complain than 2022 ND). The committee pretended that Harvard had quality wins and ND did not because Duke was magically devalued without reference to the rules.

In this case, the committee's haphazard application has raised so many hackles because ND is not just a normal bubble team--it's a team that could have competed for the national championship. In the past, bubble teams were not reasonably expected to have a shot at making the Final Four. Leaving out a team that earned a slot (based on universal application of the pre-tournament criteria) and had a shot at winning does cheapen the overall tournament, especially to an objective fan. I say this as someone who dislikes Corrigan, by the way.

In the likely event Maryland wins, at least their accomplishments this season will not be diminished, no matter how much the committee tarnished the field with its machinations.

What if Maryland loses?
(I don't think they will)

Seriously, on what basis can you claim that ND would have been there on Memorial Day or even Final 4 Saturday? They did not beat any of the tournament bound teams, two of which they lost to have already lost their first round match-ups. Only two left that they played all season are in the final 8. Only one will be in the Final Four.

I'm not arguing that there wasn't a case for them to be in the tourney as a bubble team, but claiming they'd be in the Final Four, much less Memorial Day, with any sort of confidence, is belied by their in-season performances...

Want to be in the tourney, win more games.
Don't lose all the games against the teams which do well.

Don't let it be a question.

You've hit the nail on the head. The widespread bemoaning about how ND was a team with Final Four potential is just nonsense. If that "potential" applies to ND, it applies to about a dozen teams that made the tournament who all faired better against top competition. I do think ultimately ND should have made it over Harvard, but it's not because of some subjective impression of their potential.

[wgdsr]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

Ok. Do you have that link I am looking for?

here is my clif notes...
2017-2019 selections matched straight rpi.
2 years previous there was one sub on that.

in 2017?, to me it looked weird if they were going by actual criteria (of which rpi is not one), don't remember details and don't remember 2018. but do remember noting 2 straight rpi years and at least one squirrely.

in 2019, not only did it not look like hopkins had a case over cornell other than sos... but the chairman interviewed said -- top wins and bad? losses was how they separated teams.... and then in another interview talked about their process.
and that process was that they put the top 8 at larges by rpi on the board and then checked. we've been thru this.

does that mean if they saw something crazy or even off they couldn't theoretically change it? no. does it mean they made the hill to climb for a non top 8 team hard to very hard? imo, yes.

evidence? by criteria that the chairman also cited as most important to evaluate, cornell had better wins and better losses.

but... they instead lined them up by rpi... which isn't even a criterion!!! so the team that better fits their spoken top evaluation metrics, and actual criteria, is left out. you can make your own assessment.

ftr, this year... i have not said post selection they should have followed straight rpi here and they're idiots or bid stealers for not doing that.

[Hoxwurth]

What if Maryland loses?
(I don't think they will)

Seriously, on what basis can you claim that ND would have been there on Memorial Day or even Final 4 Saturday? They did not beat any of the tournament bound teams, two of which they lost to have already lost their first round match-ups. Only two left that they played all season are in the final 8. Only one will be in the Final Four.

I'm not arguing that there wasn't a case for them to be in the tourney as a bubble team, but claiming they'd be in the Final Four, much less Memorial Day, with any sort of confidence, is belied by their in-season performances...

Want to be in the tourney, win more games.
Don't lose all the games against the teams which do well.

Don't let it be a question.

If Maryland loses, the winner will hang a banner, and I doubt many will question it.

I'm not claiming that they would be in the Final Four, but they would have had a better chance than all of the other bubble teams and some of the seeded ones, too. As for evidence, there's all sorts of predictive measures like preseason betting odds, blue chip index, Massey ratings, and Lax-Elo. In particular, preseason rankings are useful predictors of postseason success. See here, for example.

ND did win games against a top-10 team, and the committee pretended those weren't quality wins despite the committee's own criteria.

[Typical Lax Dad]

What if Maryland loses?
(I don't think they will)

Seriously, on what basis can you claim that ND would have been there on Memorial Day or even Final 4 Saturday? They did not beat any of the tournament bound teams, two of which they lost to have already lost their first round match-ups. Only two left that they played all season are in the final 8. Only one will be in the Final Four.

I'm not arguing that there wasn't a case for them to be in the tourney as a bubble team, but claiming they'd be in the Final Four, much less Memorial Day, with any sort of confidence, is belied by their in-season performances...

Want to be in the tourney, win more games.
Don't lose all the games against the teams which do well.

Don't let it be a question.

If Maryland loses, the winner will hang a banner, and I doubt many will question it.

I'm not claiming that they would be in the Final Four, but they would have had a better chance than all of the other bubble teams and some of the seeded ones, too. As for evidence, there's all sorts of predictive measures like preseason betting odds, blue chip index, Massey ratings, and Lax-Elo. In particular, preseason rankings are useful predictors of postseason success. See here, for example.

ND did win games against a top-10 team, and the committee pretended those weren't quality wins despite the committee's own criteria.

You mean they beat one top 10 team.

[Hoxwurth]

ND did win games against a top-10 team, and the committee pretended those weren't quality wins despite the committee's own criteria.

You mean they beat one top 10 team.

That's what I said.

[Typical Lax Dad]

ND did win games against a top-10 team, and the committee pretended those weren't quality wins despite the committee's own criteria.

You mean they beat one top 10 team.

That's what I said.

My fault. I took “games” as a plurality of teams. I misread your post. I have no issue admitting to a mistake.

[Typical Lax Dad]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

Ok. Do you have that link I am looking for?

here is my clif notes...
2017-2019 selections matched straight rpi.
2 years previous there was one sub on that.

in 2017?, to me it looked weird if they were going by actual criteria (of which rpi is not one), don't remember details and don't remember 2018. but do remember noting 2 straight rpi years and at least one squirrely.

in 2019, not only did it not look like hopkins had a case over cornell other than sos... but the chairman interviewed said -- top wins and bad? losses was how they separated teams.... and then in another interview talked about their process.
and that process was that they put the top 8 at larges by rpi on the board and then checked. we've been thru this.

does that mean if they saw something crazy or even off they couldn't theoretically change it? no. does it mean they made the hill to climb for a non top 8 team hard to very hard? imo, yes.

evidence? by criteria that the chairman also cited as most important to evaluate, cornell had better wins and better losses.

but... they instead lined them up by rpi... which isn't even a criterion!!! so the team that better fits their spoken top evaluation metrics, and actual criteria, is left out. you can make your own assessment.

ftr, this year... i have not said post selection they should have followed straight rpi here and they're idiots or bid stealers for not doing that.

So you are OK with them not getting in based on RPI alone?

[wgdsr]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

Ok. Do you have that link I am looking for?

here is my clif notes...
2017-2019 selections matched straight rpi.
2 years previous there was one sub on that.

in 2017?, to me it looked weird if they were going by actual criteria (of which rpi is not one), don't remember details and don't remember 2018. but do remember noting 2 straight rpi years and at least one squirrely.

in 2019, not only did it not look like hopkins had a case over cornell other than sos... but the chairman interviewed said -- top wins and bad? losses was how they separated teams.... and then in another interview talked about their process.
and that process was that they put the top 8 at larges by rpi on the board and then checked. we've been thru this.

does that mean if they saw something crazy or even off they couldn't theoretically change it? no. does it mean they made the hill to climb for a non top 8 team hard to very hard? imo, yes.

evidence? by criteria that the chairman also cited as most important to evaluate, cornell had better wins and better losses.

but... they instead lined them up by rpi... which isn't even a criterion!!! so the team that better fits their spoken top evaluation metrics, and actual criteria, is left out. you can make your own assessment.

ftr, this year... i have not said post selection they should have followed straight rpi here and they're idiots or bid stealers for not doing that.

So you are OK with them not getting in based on RPI alone?

of course. until they actually say this is what we're doing moving forward, no way it's hard and fast. will they ever do that? not a chance unless they actually change the "rules".

that said, had they gone straight rpi again.... i had long suffered and given up... so was prepared to be at the "that's the game now and everyone knows it" stage all season.

btw, i do believe the girls' rules are written differently. and may include straight rpi.

[Gobigred]

Since you asked: in 2015 Princeton’s top 5 RPI wins were against 9,10,11,19,20….I thought they could have gotten a bid. A bad loss cost them. In 2022 ND’s top 5 RPI wins 7, 17, 30,45,62

They got hosed.

you forgot a 7. they didn't have a "bad loss" vs comp's "bad loss".

I am not counting the same team twice. That’s an ACC scheme that didn’t work out this year. ND got robbed. You see the TEAM they beat!

sounds like you could apply for a spot on the committee.

Gets my vote.

[nms]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

Ok. Do you have that link I am looking for?

here is my clif notes...
2017-2019 selections matched straight rpi.
2 years previous there was one sub on that.

in 2017?, to me it looked weird if they were going by actual criteria (of which rpi is not one), don't remember details and don't remember 2018. but do remember noting 2 straight rpi years and at least one squirrely.

in 2019, not only did it not look like hopkins had a case over cornell other than sos... but the chairman interviewed said -- top wins and bad? losses was how they separated teams.... and then in another interview talked about their process.
and that process was that they put the top 8 at larges by rpi on the board and then checked. we've been thru this.

does that mean if they saw something crazy or even off they couldn't theoretically change it? no. does it mean they made the hill to climb for a non top 8 team hard to very hard? imo, yes.

evidence? by criteria that the chairman also cited as most important to evaluate, cornell had better wins and better losses.

but... they instead lined them up by rpi... which isn't even a criterion!!! so the team that better fits their spoken top evaluation metrics, and actual criteria, is left out. you can make your own assessment.

ftr, this year... i have not said post selection they should have followed straight rpi here and they're idiots or bid stealers for not doing that.

So you are OK with them not getting in based on RPI alone?

of course. until they actually say this is what we're doing moving forward, no way it's hard and fast. will they ever do that? not a chance unless they actually change the "rules".

that said, had they gone straight rpi again.... i had long suffered and given up... so was prepared to be at the "that's the game now and everyone knows it" stage all season.

btw, i do believe the girls' rules are written differently. and may include straight rpi.

I can just imagine the ND crowd passively accepting that after beating Duke twice, Duke is selected over ND for the final at-large slot because they have the higher RPI

[Typical Lax Dad]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

Ok. Do you have that link I am looking for?

here is my clif notes...
2017-2019 selections matched straight rpi.
2 years previous there was one sub on that.

in 2017?, to me it looked weird if they were going by actual criteria (of which rpi is not one), don't remember details and don't remember 2018. but do remember noting 2 straight rpi years and at least one squirrely.

in 2019, not only did it not look like hopkins had a case over cornell other than sos... but the chairman interviewed said -- top wins and bad? losses was how they separated teams.... and then in another interview talked about their process.
and that process was that they put the top 8 at larges by rpi on the board and then checked. we've been thru this.

does that mean if they saw something crazy or even off they couldn't theoretically change it? no. does it mean they made the hill to climb for a non top 8 team hard to very hard? imo, yes.

evidence? by criteria that the chairman also cited as most important to evaluate, cornell had better wins and better losses.

but... they instead lined them up by rpi... which isn't even a criterion!!! so the team that better fits their spoken top evaluation metrics, and actual criteria, is left out. you can make your own assessment.

ftr, this year... i have not said post selection they should have followed straight rpi here and they're idiots or bid stealers for not doing that.

So you are OK with them not getting in based on RPI alone?

of course. until they actually say this is what we're doing moving forward, no way it's hard and fast. will they ever do that? not a chance unless they actually change the "rules".

that said, had they gone straight rpi again.... i had long suffered and given up... so was prepared to be at the "that's the game now and everyone knows it" stage all season.

btw, i do believe the girls' rules are written differently. and may include straight rpi.

here they are:
2020-21D1WLA_MANUALPreChamps (2).pdf

You mean if the result matched straight RPI.

[Typical Lax Dad]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

Ok. Do you have that link I am looking for?

here is my clif notes...
2017-2019 selections matched straight rpi.
2 years previous there was one sub on that.

in 2017?, to me it looked weird if they were going by actual criteria (of which rpi is not one), don't remember details and don't remember 2018. but do remember noting 2 straight rpi years and at least one squirrely.

in 2019, not only did it not look like hopkins had a case over cornell other than sos... but the chairman interviewed said -- top wins and bad? losses was how they separated teams.... and then in another interview talked about their process.
and that process was that they put the top 8 at larges by rpi on the board and then checked. we've been thru this.

does that mean if they saw something crazy or even off they couldn't theoretically change it? no. does it mean they made the hill to climb for a non top 8 team hard to very hard? imo, yes.

evidence? by criteria that the chairman also cited as most important to evaluate, cornell had better wins and better losses.

but... they instead lined them up by rpi... which isn't even a criterion!!! so the team that better fits their spoken top evaluation metrics, and actual criteria, is left out. you can make your own assessment.

ftr, this year... i have not said post selection they should have followed straight rpi here and they're idiots or bid stealers for not doing that.

So you are OK with them not getting in based on RPI alone?

of course. until they actually say this is what we're doing moving forward, no way it's hard and fast. will they ever do that? not a chance unless they actually change the "rules".

that said, had they gone straight rpi again.... i had long suffered and given up... so was prepared to be at the "that's the game now and everyone knows it" stage all season.

btw, i do believe the girls' rules are written differently. and may include straight rpi.

I can just imagine the ND crowd passively accepting that after beating Duke twice, Duke is selected over ND for the final at-large slot because they have the higher RPI

I thought Duke’s body of work was better and they may have passed the smell test.

[wgdsr]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

rankings have zero to do with rpi, so there's no headwind there.
what rpi link?

Ok. Do you have that link I am looking for?

here is my clif notes...
2017-2019 selections matched straight rpi.
2 years previous there was one sub on that.

in 2017?, to me it looked weird if they were going by actual criteria (of which rpi is not one), don't remember details and don't remember 2018. but do remember noting 2 straight rpi years and at least one squirrely.

in 2019, not only did it not look like hopkins had a case over cornell other than sos... but the chairman interviewed said -- top wins and bad? losses was how they separated teams.... and then in another interview talked about their process.
and that process was that they put the top 8 at larges by rpi on the board and then checked. we've been thru this.

does that mean if they saw something crazy or even off they couldn't theoretically change it? no. does it mean they made the hill to climb for a non top 8 team hard to very hard? imo, yes.

evidence? by criteria that the chairman also cited as most important to evaluate, cornell had better wins and better losses.

but... they instead lined them up by rpi... which isn't even a criterion!!! so the team that better fits their spoken top evaluation metrics, and actual criteria, is left out. you can make your own assessment.

ftr, this year... i have not said post selection they should have followed straight rpi here and they're idiots or bid stealers for not doing that.

So you are OK with them not getting in based on RPI alone?

of course. until they actually say this is what we're doing moving forward, no way it's hard and fast. will they ever do that? not a chance unless they actually change the "rules".

that said, had they gone straight rpi again.... i had long suffered and given up... so was prepared to be at the "that's the game now and everyone knows it" stage all season.

btw, i do believe the girls' rules are written differently. and may include straight rpi.

here they are:
2020-21D1WLA_MANUALPreChamps (2).pdf

You mean if the result matched straight RPI.

yeah, if they matched and then came up with some happy horsesh*t about how they went thru a grueling evaluation process of x,y, z real criteria that doesn't match what they actually did.

[JoeMauer89]

This is like college admissions. I have said for years parents focus on two things: SAT / GPA. More to it than those two things but guess what, those are two things parents can help manipulate….I can’t tell you the number of time I heard Johnny didn’t get into X school but had a higher SAT score than Adam. All that tutoring and test prep money gone to waste… ND engineering its 12 game schedule didn’t work this season.

from your lips to god's ears. not sure how we would get reform in any walk of life without some form of "protest"... ya know, dem's the rules... even if they aren't the rules... deal.

we've hashed one thing out. tld doesn't like 12 games schedules. harvard should take note. ftr, i always thought they were living on the edge with that.

Harvard should. Ivy League won’t always be that strong. Could have easily been left out. In fact, I didn’t think they would be selected (notice I didn’t used the word “deserved”… teams don’t deserve anything. You earn it…don’t do enough and you “deserve” what you get). Beat TOSU and ND was in. Take it off the table.

nd should confer with penn, too. hell, even p'ton had 13 games. step up! what's another game to get to the right #!

you have no way of knowing whether nd is in with a win over tosu. domers didn't beat anyone else.

Yes. JHU had to cancel the Princeton game and with a mid February start and all the lacrosse conferences that exist now, the OCC window is compressed for Ivy League schools compared to others. They do the best they can, I reckon. ACC doesn't have to worry about a conference tournament so ND should try to get more games in. If ACC had a tournament, maybe they get in on the AQ..... This is an anomaly for the ACC I believe. Pre-season rankings next year may be a headwind for RPI unless they get some big OCC wins. you got that RPI link yet?

ND Coach is the one that I thought is behind the 12 game bare minimum schedule. Maybe its his thought that the extra practice serves them better? As far as I know most other teams at least between 14-17 games. Strange.

Joe

[Hoxwurth]

ND did win games against a top-10 team, and the committee pretended those weren't quality wins despite the committee's own criteria.

You mean they beat one top 10 team.

That's what I said.

My fault. I took “games” as a plurality of teams. I misread your post. I have no issue admitting to a mistake.

I've done the same and am guaranteed to do it again. Cheers.