LaxPower Back-Up Stick

wgdsr wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:48 pm pretty comical. as the twitter/il link alludes to part of, here is the ncaa.com reasoning...not an actual quote but you can suspect it came from the horses' mouths:
https://www.ncaa.com/news/lacrosse-men/ ... s-faceoffs
Currently, players can start a faceoff on one knee and also can use a motorcycle grip, in which the stick is held with both palms down. Members of the committee, which met by videoconference for four days last week, felt this leads to clamping of the ball and long stalemates.

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If the changes are approved, committee members think this area of the game will be cleaned up, and players would have to move the ball in a continuous motion. If the ball is withheld in a player’s stick, a violation would be called, and the opposing team would be awarded possession of the ball.

this has literally been written in the rules for years, as i alluded to some time ago and we went over on this thread, and have had battles with nfhs refs for clarification for years. all they had to do was call it. now, the major rule change of course would make them call it. you can't make this stuff up.

Surfs_Up wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:39 pm
things I have noticed
Number of fast breaks are about the same percentage between the 2
Tie ups are shorter in SNG
Less clean wins and more scrums-ground balls from SNG
WIngs are more important than ever with SNG.

NElaxtalent wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:47 pm

Surfs_Up wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:39 pm
things I have noticed
Number of fast breaks are about the same percentage between the 2
Tie ups are shorter in SNG
Less clean wins and more scrums-ground balls from SNG
WIngs are more important than ever with SNG.

Looks like your observations are EXACTLY what the rules committee was shooting for. Many of those I see complaining about changing the FO rules (to counterbalance the flexi-stick plastic evolution) appear to be relatively new to the sport and likely haven't watched lacrosse pre-2005 much less pre-1990 so they understandably lack historical perspective. Who took FOs was barely a consideration on most teams much less having a designated specialist for the "role".

NElaxtalent wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:29 pm Wgdsr, not sure your point. Surf's up posted his observations of SNG's effects. I only referenced what he said vs the rules committee's intentions.

I keep reading parents of current MS/HS FOs saying leave the FO rules intact. I'm just trying to share historical perspective that prior to the evolution of the plastic, we talked more of "FO units" not FO guys. And often who actually took the FO wasn't a major consideration (like NHL). I'm pretty neutral on the topic. I just think the balance of power/importance has swung a bit too far when a FOGO is your #1 focus in recruiting over Gs & other full-time field players. Imagine if a K or Punter was most NFL team's key playe? Or NBA tip-off jump guy?

Let's all see what happens. I'm sure the best guys will adapt and excel (to what extent remains to be seen).

wgdsr wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:17 pm but that's not what they said. they told you the reason was something else.
they didn't say that they didn't want the chance that they'd lose to someone else in large part because someone else found a better faceoff guy. or coached up their own faceoff guys better. or coached up their wings better.

they didn't say they believe that's all "by chance", and shouldn't impact their great other recruiting and vast coaching and x's and o's skills.

they said clamps and withholding were the problem. and they referenced wording to that effect exactly as it's been written in the rules for years.

let me ask you... if shay and wray were on the committee this year, would this have passed?

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:38 pm
I just don’t know why the refs would not simplify disallow the clamp. You can’t withhold the ball anywhere else on the field. I don’t like legislating technique. I also don’t like how stick technology has changed the FOGO position. I thought face offs over the past couple of years were much better.

NElaxtalent wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:04 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:38 pm
I just don’t know why the refs would not simplify disallow the clamp. You can’t withhold the ball anywhere else on the field. I don’t like legislating technique. I also don’t like how stick technology has changed the FOGO position. I thought face offs over the past couple of years were much better.

+1 (enforce the withholding rule on FOs, problem solved)

Surfs_Up wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:39 pm
Other things I have noticed
Number of fast breaks are about the same percentage between the 2
Tie ups are shorter in SNG
Less clean wins and more scrums-ground balls from SNG
WIngs are more important than ever with SNG.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:12 pm

NElaxtalent wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:04 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:38 pm
I just don’t know why the refs would not simplify disallow the clamp. You can’t withhold the ball anywhere else on the field. I don’t like legislating technique. I also don’t like how stick technology has changed the FOGO position. I thought face offs over the past couple of years were much better.

+1 (enforce the withholding rule on FOs, problem solved)

Yep. The sticks only encouraged more withholding.

NElaxtalent wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:29 pm ...
I keep reading parents of current MS/HS FOs saying leave the FO rules intact. I'm just trying to share historical perspective that prior to the evolution of the plastic, we talked more of "FO units" not FO guys. And often who actually took the FO wasn't a major consideration (like NHL). I'm pretty neutral on the topic. I just think the balance of power/importance has swung a bit too far when a FOGO is your #1 focus in recruiting over Gs & other full-time field players. Imagine if a K or Punter was most NFL team's key playe? Or NBA tip-off jump guy?
...

NElaxtalent wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:04 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:38 pm
I just don’t know why the refs would not simplify disallow the clamp. You can’t withhold the ball anywhere else on the field. I don’t like legislating technique. I also don’t like how stick technology has changed the FOGO position. I thought face offs over the past couple of years were much better.

+1 (enforce the withholding rule on FOs, problem solved)

Wgdsr, short answer is you are right. More comprehensive answer... many coaches don't like something so pivotal being decided by 1-2 recruits/players that detract from the more free-flowing parts of the game they love coaching. They don't like the time consuming individual technique/reps/practice time for 3-4 FOs taking a coach away from 45 other guys.

wgdsr wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:21 pm

NElaxtalent wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:04 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:38 pm
I just don’t know why the refs would not simplify disallow the clamp. You can’t withhold the ball anywhere else on the field. I don’t like legislating technique. I also don’t like how stick technology has changed the FOGO position. I thought face offs over the past couple of years were much better.

+1 (enforce the withholding rule on FOs, problem solved)

Wgdsr, short answer is you are right. More comprehensive answer... many coaches don't like something so pivotal being decided by 1-2 recruits/players that detract from the more free-flowing parts of the game they love coaching. They don't like the time consuming individual technique/reps/practice time for 3-4 FOs taking a coach away from 45 other guys.

and that's a cop out. and it's that much more of a cop out that they don't admit it publicly. the naz coach went so far as to say "it's about the kids", a phrase i hear so often at my school i chuckled... as i know what it has typically meant who it is for.

our vaunted small set f/o coach rules experts, who are afraid they'll lose because they can't recruit/coach faceoffs, will be back in some form in 2 or 4 years. guaranteed. bc faceoff guys will figure it out. these same guys made modifications to allow their misfortune. disallowing anything close to holding once somebody lost the clamp (unlike anywhere else on the field), so it could go "quicker". then they allowed the clamp guy to pick and choose his poison whenever he felt like it. and they wonder why they can't win faceoffs?

what i see, and i look for it on many faceoffs... is where wings get positioned if they have time to get in. to me, it lòoks like they have no idea where they're going if they want to win. 75% or more of exits are 12 or 6 o'clock, anything else is largely on the 9 o'clock side. so you actually sprint in, not jog, box out and position on left shoulder, left cheek, rotate and switch off as need be, with a bias to head where their fogo may go (left) if it's not front or back.
as a fogo if you get behind at any point you disrupt and don't just become a witness.

is that coached? not very often, imo. not by what i see. the 45 min part is bogus. what were they doing with all that time? any of those coaches that think any less precision needs to go into faceoff/wing play now is gonna get smoked. don't goalies have to warmup? don't they have stations? will there be fewer faceoffs? fewer moves? faceoff guys can't work on faceoffs like goalies before they start standing around? if they think they won't any longer have to devote the same time and energy to fo's and wing play, that group is in for a rough year.

all they had to do was emphasize withholding, tell the refs enough's enough, it's in the rules... and actually teach. they will find that out soon enough. until 2/4 years from now, of course.