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Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:04 pm
by OuttaNowhereWregget
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:00 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:53 am There was a brief news item this morning locally here in Boston. 100 fully vaccinated people have died from Covid-19 according to the Massachusetts Department of Public Health. The statement went on to say, “Many had underlying conditions.”

I’m curious as to why they were vague about the numbers. How many is “many”? And if the MDPH knew many, then why didn’t they report how many?
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/ne ... d/2456116/

https://www.mass.gov/doc/daily-covid-19 ... 1/download
My break is almost up here at work and I don’t have time to read these links. Do any of them give details as to how many did not have underlying conditions?

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:10 pm
by kramerica.inc
This makes no sense. I just read that those with the vaccine almost never die of covid.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:20 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:04 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:00 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:53 am There was a brief news item this morning locally here in Boston. 100 fully vaccinated people have died from Covid-19 according to the Massachusetts Department of Public Health. The statement went on to say, “Many had underlying conditions.”

I’m curious as to why they were vague about the numbers. How many is “many”? And if the MDPH knew many, then why didn’t they report how many?
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/ne ... d/2456116/

https://www.mass.gov/doc/daily-covid-19 ... 1/download
My break is almost up here at work and I don’t have time to read these links. Do any of them give details as to how many did not have underlying conditions?
I didn’t read second link. Vanishing low incidence for vaccinated people.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:23 pm
by seacoaster
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/09/ ... s-july-31/

"As of the end of July, 100 people in Massachusetts who had been fully vaccinated against the coronavirus had died from the disease, the Department of Public Health said.

In 73 percent of the cases, the patients were reported to have underlying conditions, the department said in a statement.

The median age of those who died was 82.5 years, the department also said. That means half the group was over that age and half was under.

The number of deaths was 0.002 percent of all fully vaccinated individuals, the department said.

“Breakthrough cases in Massachusetts are incredibly low, and those hospitalized or who have died are even lower. All available data continue to support that all 3 vaccines used in the US are highly protective against severe disease and death from all known variants of COVID-19. The best way to protect yourself and your loved ones is to get vaccinated,” the statement said.

The department also reported that there had been 395 breakthrough hospitalizations, which was 0.009 percent of all fully vaccinated individuals. Fifty-seven percent of those hospitalized had underlying conditions.

The department said the numbers could be revised as officials continue to investigate the cases.

As of Monday, nearly 4.4 million people in Massachusetts had received either two doses of the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines or one dose of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, the state reported."

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:32 pm
by wgdsr
protective but not awesome numbers compared to what came out of trials.
though not a lot of trial numbers on 84 year olds, doubt very large numbers on comorbitities compared to what's happened in the field. and numbers were blended.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:35 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
wgdsr wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:32 pm protective but not awesome numbers compared to what came out of trials.
though not a lot of trial numbers on 84 year olds, doubt very large numbers on comorbitities compared to what's happened in the field. and numbers were blended.
Awesome in what way and how different? Not nit picking but haven’t crunched numbers on my own so I am just asking. What would be expected? My gut tells me we wouldn’t have expected as many breakthroughs but I have nothing to support it.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:03 pm
by jhu72
wgdsr wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:32 pm protective but not awesome numbers compared to what came out of trials.
though not a lot of trial numbers on 84 year olds, doubt very large numbers on comorbitities compared to what's happened in the field. and numbers were blended.
... don't think trials were against delta.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:21 pm
by OuttaNowhereWregget
So this would be a good place to use the word “infinitesimal”.
seacoaster wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:23 pm https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/09/ ... s-july-31/

"As of the end of July, 100 people in Massachusetts who had been fully vaccinated against the coronavirus had died from the disease, the Department of Public Health said.

In 73 percent of the cases, the patients were reported to have underlying conditions, the department said in a statement.

The median age of those who died was 82.5 years, the department also said. That means half the group was over that age and half was under.

The number of deaths was 0.002 percent of all fully vaccinated individuals, the department said.

“Breakthrough cases in Massachusetts are incredibly low, and those hospitalized or who have died are even lower. All available data continue to support that all 3 vaccines used in the US are highly protective against severe disease and death from all known variants of COVID-19. The best way to protect yourself and your loved ones is to get vaccinated,” the statement said.

The department also reported that there had been 395 breakthrough hospitalizations, which was 0.009 percent of all fully vaccinated individuals. Fifty-seven percent of those hospitalized had underlying conditions.

The department said the numbers could be revised as officials continue to investigate the cases.

As of Monday, nearly 4.4 million people in Massachusetts had received either two doses of the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines or one dose of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, the state reported."

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:30 pm
by jhu72
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:21 pm So this would be a good place to use the word “infinitesimal”.
seacoaster wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:23 pm https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/09/ ... s-july-31/

"As of the end of July, 100 people in Massachusetts who had been fully vaccinated against the coronavirus had died from the disease, the Department of Public Health said.

In 73 percent of the cases, the patients were reported to have underlying conditions, the department said in a statement.

The median age of those who died was 82.5 years, the department also said. That means half the group was over that age and half was under.

The number of deaths was 0.002 percent of all fully vaccinated individuals, the department said.

“Breakthrough cases in Massachusetts are incredibly low, and those hospitalized or who have died are even lower. All available data continue to support that all 3 vaccines used in the US are highly protective against severe disease and death from all known variants of COVID-19. The best way to protect yourself and your loved ones is to get vaccinated,” the statement said.

The department also reported that there had been 395 breakthrough hospitalizations, which was 0.009 percent of all fully vaccinated individuals. Fifty-seven percent of those hospitalized had underlying conditions.

The department said the numbers could be revised as officials continue to investigate the cases.

As of Monday, nearly 4.4 million people in Massachusetts had received either two doses of the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines or one dose of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, the state reported."
2 out of a 100,000 vaccinated

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:31 pm
by wgdsr
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:35 pm
wgdsr wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:32 pm protective but not awesome numbers compared to what came out of trials.
though not a lot of trial numbers on 84 year olds, doubt very large numbers on comorbitities compared to what's happened in the field. and numbers were blended.
Awesome in what way and how different? Not nit picking but haven’t crunched numbers on my own so I am just asking. What would be expected? My gut tells me we wouldn’t have expected as many breakthroughs but I have nothing to support it.
30% breakthru. that's data from some time in january, or so i take from the article. they have ~73% of over 11s vaccinated. obviously, they didn't have 73% vaxxed in january. that'd be if i'm doing it right 84% protection if everyone was vaxxed in jan when they started. which is nowhere close to being the case. throw in that most cases in mass were when people were ramping getting vaxxed, early in year. protection for cases would seem to be pretty low.

just using their last week in deaths, 9 out of ~42. that's ~90% protection from death, not 98 or 99. and over a 1/4 that were hospitalized, died. that's early pandemic numbers. thought we were doing better than that. obviously, a one week figure is small sample size.

edit from above: read globe article wrong on cases... 30% in last week. so that's ~84% protection in cases in small sample size.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:02 pm
by CU88
Maybe one of the r's here can explain this to me?

Gov. Greg Abbott announces Texas will be seeking out-of-state health care personnel to help with the latest surge, and he is asking hospitals to voluntarily postpone elective medical procedures.

https://www.wndu.com/2021/08/10/texas-g ... -covid-19/

Will he require them to NOT wear masks?

Is this just another MAGA looking for help to solve their problem?
Maybe if he advocated masks they wouldn't have this dire situation?

DEPLORABLE

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:08 pm
by MDlaxfan76
CU88 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:02 pm Maybe one of the r's here can explain this to me?

Gov. Greg Abbott announces Texas will be seeking out-of-state health care personnel to help with the latest surge, and he is asking hospitals to voluntarily postpone elective medical procedures.

https://www.wndu.com/2021/08/10/texas-g ... -covid-19/

Will he require them to NOT wear masks?

Is this just another MAGA looking for help to solve their problem?
Maybe if he advocated masks they wouldn't have this dire situation?

DEPLORABLE
oops.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:41 pm
by CU88
Dr. Stock’s presentation is filled with disinformation

Katelyn Jetelina
Aug 10

I have gotten a few thousand messages asking me to combat the mis-and dis-information from Dr. Stock's presentation to an Indiana School Board. My friend, who’s a brilliant biochemist, wrote a fantastic blog post about this and I couldn't have done it better myself. Go HERE to read the full rebuttal. It’s amazing.

https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/ ... ock-claims

Some of high-level points:

The speech is a classic example of verbal gish gallop: a tactic used by science denialists wherein they post a bunch of links that they claim to support their points but in reality most of the citations are unsupportive or even unrelated to their claim- but this serves the appearance of evidence. He is doing this but with words- he is making a series of incorrect arguments (that are self-contradictory) and essentially seeking to overwhelm opposition with the volume of arguments he makes.

He starts off by saying “It’s hard to believe we are 18 months into this and still have a problem”. No, it’s not hard to believe because, first and foremost, the amount of disinformation being spread from people like himself has directly impacted our ability to effectively and efficiently respond to the pandemic. In 2020, the WHO coined this an infodemic- the overabundance of information and disinformation- that has caused confusion, anxiety, and an anti-science rhetoric. There are also a myriad of other reasons. Like, we have an increasingly globalized world. We have a chronically underfunded public health and medical health system in the United States. An increasingly polarized politics. And I could go on…

He describes himself as a “functional family medicine physician” which, according to him “means [he] is specially trained in immunology and inflammation regulation.” That is not what a functional family medicine physician does and misrepresents his training and expertise. The U.S. medical board says that licenses can be revoked for spreading misinformation. So I’ll be curious what happens to his license. But I’m not even convinced that he has one because functional medicine is not a specialty recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties nor the American Medical Association.

He then argues that masks don’t work because viruses are small enough to pass through them. The problem with this reasoning is viruses do not travel as individual viral particles- they are inside the aerosols and droplets. That’s what the masks block. The IDSA has graciously compiled the multitudinous, surfeit evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of masking here which anyone is free to peruse at their leisure.

He then states that all respiratory viruses wait for the “immune system to get sick in the winter”. The seasonality of respiratory viruses is a complex matter dependent on many factors, many of which have nothing to do directly with immunity. For instance, when it’s cold, people gather indoors for prolonged periods close together in poorly ventilated spaces. Humidity is lower which also affects virus transmission as it allows aerosols to remain suspended for longer and mucociliary clearance may be impaired. Vitamin D levels in the winter may also play a role but it’s probably not that important in higher income nations because true vitamin D deficiency is relatively rare.

Stock then states the vaccines make your immune system become “deranged.” We have near real-time safety data on vaccines and the risks (which are themselves exceptionally rare) are: anaphylaxis 2.5-4.7 per million doses, thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) with the JJJ vaccine at 3 per million doses, Guillain-Barre syndrome at 7.8 per million doses of JJJ, and the rare cases of myocarditis whose rate is hard to define generally but goes up to ~7 per 100,000 second doses of the vaccine in younger males and is far lower for everyone else. COVID-19 patients on the other hand may have substantial immunological challenges.

Stock then says something about the virus can’t ever go away because it has animal reservoirs (zoonotic virus). This is not the whole truth. Certainly, barring a universal coronavirus vaccine that can be given to animals and ideally one that is itself transmissible, SARS-CoV-2 is not a viable candidate for eradication because it has animal reservoirs that can keep introducing it into the population. This does not mean that vaccination cannot alleviate the public health burden of COVID-19. It does it every year for flu, which is another zoonotic disease. And COVID vaccines are far more effective. We might eventually even be able to eliminate SARS-CoV-2 country-by-country like we do for yellow fever.

Stock then describes breakthrough cases during the summer and claims that this is proof the vaccine doesn’t work. Firstly, multiple respiratory viruses are having out of season resurgence (e.g. RSV) which significantly weakens the argument. Most probably, this is because we decided to relax every single mitigation measure against COVID which also had the side effect of reducing the spread of any infection spread by the respiratory route. He then chooses to ignore the vaccine effectiveness data we currently have.

At this point, Stock then raises the matter of antibody-dependent enhancement, except he calls it “antibody-mediated viral enhancement.” This is irredeemable and unequivocally disinformation. Firstly, he defines ADE incorrectly by suggesting it is exclusive to vaccines. ADE does not have to be caused by a vaccine to be ADE- in Dengue which is the major infection for which it’s relevant it is almost always because of infection. We also have data on hundreds of thousands of people at this point who got convalescent plasma and it didn’t make them worse. On top of that animal studies of the vaccines demonstrated protectiveness. If the vaccines actually caused ADE it would represent a negative vaccine efficacy/effectiveness. Stop trying to make ADE happen. It’s not happening.

Stock then brings up the Barnstable County outbreak and he gets applauded. Again ignoring context and misrepresenting data. We have no idea what the denominator here was. This is a classic example of base rate bias. Provincetown has a 95% vaccination rate. If 74% of the cases were in vaccinated people, that gives vaccines 84% effectiveness. Which is fantastic.

Stock then claims no vaccine ever stops infection as though this is some smoking gun. Firstly, that’s not true. HPV vaccines do prevent transmission (and depending on the capsule group some pneumococcal and meningococcal vaccines are also considered to confer sterilizing immunity). Second of all no vaccine needs to stop infection for it to have massive public health benefits or stop transmission.

Stock then references a mumps outbreak and claims that the outbreak was caused by vaccinated people shedding the mumps virus on the unvaccinated. He may be disappointed to learn that there has never been a well-documented case of secondary transmission of vaccine strain mumps in the history of its use (in this case I am referring to the Jeryl-Lynn strain used in the US).

Stock then claims the trifecta of vitamin D (addressed earlier), ivermectin, and zinc to treat a whole 15 COVID patients. The issue is that given any representative sample of 15 people in the US population the most probable outcome of COVID-19 is recovery so these data are not meaningful (beyond the fact that this is anecdote). Furthermore recent data has emerged to indicate that much of the positive data regarding ivermectin may be the result of fraud. I could find no data of reasonable quality on the value of zinc as a therapy in COVID-19. Stock also says that vaccination is appropriate only if there is no treatment. Vaccination is a preventive measure, not a treatment.

Stock then asserts very confidently again that patients who recovery from COVID-19 have no benefit from vaccination at all. This was explicitly demonstrated to be false in the recent CDC MMWR then which found the exact opposite- a significantly reduced risk of reinfection among those who got 2 doses after recovery by 2.34 times.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion. This disinformation is incredibly dangerous and directly threatens our efforts to end the pandemic.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:46 pm
by CU88
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:08 pm
CU88 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:02 pm Maybe one of the r's here can explain this to me?

Gov. Greg Abbott announces Texas will be seeking out-of-state health care personnel to help with the latest surge, and he is asking hospitals to voluntarily postpone elective medical procedures.

https://www.wndu.com/2021/08/10/texas-g ... -covid-19/

Will he require them to NOT wear masks?

Is this just another MAGA looking for help to solve their problem?
Maybe if he advocated masks they wouldn't have this dire situation?

DEPLORABLE
oops.
Right?

TEXAS: How dare you out-of-staters tell us how to protect our citizens

ALSO TEXAS: help something unforeseen has happened

https://apnews.com/article/business-hea ... 414c42a522

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:56 pm
by old salt
A couple stats would help parents figure out the mask & vaccine questions for their kids :

-- what % of kids hospitalized for covid have other underlying conditions ?

-- does the testing distinguish between covid (alone) & distinguished from/combined with RSV.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:59 pm
by jhu72
CU88 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:46 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:08 pm
CU88 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:02 pm Maybe one of the r's here can explain this to me?

Gov. Greg Abbott announces Texas will be seeking out-of-state health care personnel to help with the latest surge, and he is asking hospitals to voluntarily postpone elective medical procedures.

https://www.wndu.com/2021/08/10/texas-g ... -covid-19/

Will he require them to NOT wear masks?

Is this just another MAGA looking for help to solve their problem?
Maybe if he advocated masks they wouldn't have this dire situation?

DEPLORABLE
oops.
Right?

TEXAS: How dare you out-of-staters tell us how to protect our citizens

ALSO TEXAS: help something unforeseen has happened

https://apnews.com/article/business-hea ... 414c42a522
Now you want to hear something funny, in Texas you don't have to be vaccinated, don't have to mask and apparently don't have to tell the school if you have COVID in order to go to school. If you have head lice, you have to tell the school. :lol: :lol:

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:49 pm
by Typical Lax Dad

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:50 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:56 pm A couple stats would help parents figure out the mask & vaccine questions for their kids :

-- what % of kids hospitalized for covid have other underlying conditions ?

-- does the testing distinguish between covid (alone) & distinguished from/combined with RSV.
How is the latter relevant? Not arguing with you, just wondering what difference you think it makes...kids are getting sick at alarming rates, gotta make parents nervous about sending their kids into rooms with unmasked kids with parents who haven't been vaccinated.

And are you suggesting that if a parent is unaware of their kid having any complicating "underlying conditions" eg, asthma, overweight, Downs, or a myriad of other conditions, no worries?

About 20% of kids are obese, higher as they get older...about 19% under 12, about 21% 12-19. Overweight about double those %. About 1 in 12 children have asthma, some overlap with obesity.

Various immune issues?

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:56 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:50 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:56 pm A couple stats would help parents figure out the mask & vaccine questions for their kids :

-- what % of kids hospitalized for covid have other underlying conditions ?

-- does the testing distinguish between covid (alone) & distinguished from/combined with RSV.
How is the latter relevant? Not arguing with you, just wondering what difference you think it makes...kids are getting sick at alarming rates, gotta make parents nervous about sending their kids into rooms with unmasked kids with parents who haven't been vaccinated.

And are you suggesting that if a parent is unaware of their kid having any complicating "underlying conditions" eg, asthma, overweight, Downs, or a myriad of other conditions, no worries?

About 20% of kids are obese, higher as they get older...about 19% under 12, about 21% 12-19. Overweight about double those %. About 1 in 12 children have asthma, some overlap with obesity.

Various immune issues?
https://www.google.com/search?q=rsv+in+ ... 66&bih=617

The better informed parents are about the potential underlying risk factors which could lead to covid infection, the more likely they will be to take precautions for their kids (such as masking) or getting them vaccinated.

obtw -- Moderna is tweaking their booster for delta & RSV.

Re: All things CoronaVirus

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:19 pm
by NattyBohChamps04
old salt wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:56 pmThe better informed parents are about the potential underlying risk factors which could lead to covid infection, the more likely they will be to take precautions for their kids (such as masking) or getting them vaccinated.
Not true. Too much disinformation and propaganda out there. It's not about how informed a parent is, it's how they are informed. Who is informing them, how much they trust the informer, and when. If they're informed with the wrong info, it's exponentially harder to get them to do the right thing. Even if that original informer changes their tune.

The firehose of BS has been on since the beginning. Mostly one-sided. It's hurting America.