All things CoronaVirus

[jhu72]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

[youthathletics]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

[CU88]

Can our immunity wall protect us from Delta?
Current state of affairs.

Katelyn Jetelina
Jul 7


Epidemiologists are holding our breath to see how we fare against Delta. We did relatively well with Alpha (well, at least those of us not in Michigan or Oregon), but Delta (and the timing of Delta given pandemic fatigue) is another beast. We aren’t optimistic for a few reasons…

Immunity Wall

Vermont is the clear leader with 66.1% of the population fully vaccinated, Massachusetts (62.2 %) and Maine (61.9%) closely follow. Yes, population size has something to do with their success, but 19 other states have also administered enough shots to cover at more than 50% of their population.

And the vaccines are working. Yesterday we saw even more data from Canada and the UK that confirmed effectiveness against Delta. There is some conflicting data coming from Israel, as one study showed a Pfizer efficacy rate of 64%. But, even this study found that Pfizer still protected amazingly from severe disease.

Unfortunately, some states like Mississippi (29.9%), Alabama (33.0 %), and Arkansas (34.6 %) have a very small proportion of their population vaccinated. Although there are problems with the “natural immunity” strategy, there is some level of protection in these states.

As requested, I updated my graph from last month to show the states’ progress towards “herd immunity”. My estimates have a lot of flaws (see more here), but it’s a decent guesstimate of the immunity wall.

Briefly, this graph takes into account: 1) under-reporting of asymptomatic cases (multiply cases by 3); 2) reinfection rate among naturally infected (20% of naturally infected not protected); and 3) efficacy of vaccines (90% of full vaccinated). This time around I also tried to take into account the rate in which previously infected get vaccinated (60%) given some recent vaccine hesitancy data.


Delta

Unfortunately our U.S. genomic surveillance is suboptimal, making our estimates of Delta delayed and a really rough. Three weeks ago, CDC reported that 51.7% of cases nationwide were Delta. Interestingly, Delta greatly varies by state for now. Some states (like Missouri) have a 90% prevalence of Delta while others have 30%. With a doubling rate of 10 days, this means that today Delta is dominant in many parts of the United States.


And with the high prevalence of Delta is coming an increase in cases. We see this today in Missouri (16 daily cases per 100,000), Nevada (13 per 100,000), Arkansas (12 per 100,000), and Florida (10 per 100,000). Other states are quickly accelerating too, like South Carolina (+145%), Nebraska (+137%), and Mississippi (+44%). These increases are so strong that the national average stopped decelerating and is now plateauing.

A really high wall is needed

We know a really high wall is needed to block Delta. Even the U.K. and Israel, two of the global leaders in vaccinations (67% and 65% fully vaccinated), don’t have a high enough wall for symptomatic or severe disease from Delta. This means not even our high vaccination states (like Vermont) are fully protected.


In the UK, cases continue to increase among unvaccinated and partially vaccinated. Hospitalizations are also starting to increase with the typical a lag time of ~ 3 weeks.


Thankfully Israel cases have stopped accelerating in the past few days. This is probably due to a lot of reasons:

They did not implement a delayed second dose policy like the UK.

Israel has only used mRNA vaccines (which are more efficacious than AstraZeneca)

They’ve had less time with Delta (and so it’s too early to see an increase)

Bottom Line

This pandemic is not over. Many of us are worried about our immunity wall against Delta. Only time will tell how this plays out. TBD.

Love, YLE

[MDlaxfan76]

as of march19-20, with almost 3 months of being first selected, abouts 50% of the healthcare worker population had not taken up the vaccine. at all. feel free to look it up.
i'll say it again. 50%. after almost 3 months. healthcare workers, of all people.
vaccines were, at the outset, sent to hospitals, nursing homes, et.al., with instructions not to be given to anyone else outside the system. this was all national news and researchable.

anecdotally, my son, who was 20 and tertiary involved with the health care system, was offered repeatedly spots in line when seniors couldn't get them. in mid jan. and seniors couldn't get them for months after for many.

you are welcome to look any of this stuff up to verify before challenging (while misrepresenting what i said). thanks.

Sheesh, asking you what you mean is not misrepresenting; so prickly!
You don't have to assume I'm attacking you when I ask a question.

This is what I think; feel free to ask me to clarify if I'm not clear to you.

You are of course 100% correct that healthcare workers were given first priority in December. No argument from me. And yes, a whole bunch of younger such deferred while their elderly patients got theirs, unless the physician or nurse was working directly in the COVID ward in which case there was tremendous relief to be able to get vaccinated. But a heck of a lot of healthcare workers weren't in those wards, so had more flexibility to wait while older folks got theirs. Some did and some didn't.

Note that in most places vaccines didn't become available generally to below 65 until early April. Mortality was quite high above 65, but also taking lots of 40-65 too, so there was real concern among younger healthcare folks, without a lot of exposure, in stepping ahead of older general populace.

And then there were all the workers doing non patient care tasks, on the priority list, but obviously much less exposure...and of course there also were workers, still are, who had actual vaccine hesitancy due to misinformation, education being a major factor in such perceptions, though obviously that's a generalization.

And yes, it took until March/April for a majority of all healthcare workers...not the physicians and not those working directly with Covid or working directly with elderly patients or nursing home residents, but the rest were indeed much slower. If that's what you mean by "slow", no debate from me...but the word might have meant that you were saying medical folks were more vaccine hesitant than the rest of the population and I think that's quite untrue...sounds like didn't mean that relative statement though.

[MDlaxfan76]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

Your logic is faulty, youth.
ggait didn't say that all of those vaccine hesitaters were Trumper or goofballs, and 72 didn't say that all of those hesitant are black or pregnant.

Different folks, for different reasons.
And yeah, there are Trumpers and goofballs in the healthcare sphere too.

[wgdsr]

as of march19-20, with almost 3 months of being first selected, abouts 50% of the healthcare worker population had not taken up the vaccine. at all. feel free to look it up.
i'll say it again. 50%. after almost 3 months. healthcare workers, of all people.
vaccines were, at the outset, sent to hospitals, nursing homes, et.al., with instructions not to be given to anyone else outside the system. this was all national news and researchable.

anecdotally, my son, who was 20 and tertiary involved with the health care system, was offered repeatedly spots in line when seniors couldn't get them. in mid jan. and seniors couldn't get them for months after for many.

you are welcome to look any of this stuff up to verify before challenging (while misrepresenting what i said). thanks.

Sheesh, asking you what you mean is not misrepresenting; so prickly!
You don't have to assume I'm attacking you when I ask a question.

This is what I think; feel free to ask me to clarify if I'm not clear to you.

You are of course 100% correct that healthcare workers were given first priority in December. No argument from me. And yes, a whole bunch of younger such deferred while their elderly patients got theirs, unless the physician or nurse was working directly in the COVID ward in which case there was tremendous relief to be able to get vaccinated. But a heck of a lot of healthcare workers weren't in those wards, so had more flexibility to wait while older folks got theirs. Some did and some didn't.

Note that in most places vaccines didn't become available generally to below 65 until early April. Mortality was quite high above 65, but also taking lots of 40-65 too, so there was real concern among younger healthcare folks, without a lot of exposure, in stepping ahead of older general populace.

And then there were all the workers doing non patient care tasks, on the priority list, but obviously much less exposure...and of course there also were workers, still are, who had actual vaccine hesitancy due to misinformation, education being a major factor in such perceptions, though obviously that's a generalization.

And yes, it took until March/April for a majority of all healthcare workers...not the physicians and not those working directly with Covid or working directly with elderly patients or nursing home residents, but the rest were indeed much slower. If that's what you mean by "slow", no debate from me...but the word might have meant that you were saying medical folks were more vaccine hesitant than the rest of the population and I think that's quite untrue...sounds like didn't mean that relative statement though.

this is the first time i have ever heard that younger healthcare workers were waiting in line to be altruistic, so there's your reason. everything i personally had seen, from then until now, was that it was a result
of the common themes:
- safety concerns, too quick
- use my natural immune system
- distrust of government
- because freedom

to wit, from the aafp, ways to combat the 4 reasons:
https://www.aafp.org/journals/fpm/blogs ... tancy.html
plenty of cited studies to chew on.
from the new yorker, late april. plenty of examples, real world numbers in healthcare systems and care facilities:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-colu ... sing-homes
global and u.s. numbers, plenty of cited studies:
https://www.verywellhealth.com/healthca ... 19-5184207
here's one of them from the above, including an astounding number of home healthcare workers (front facing elderly?)
https://www.kff.org/report-section/kff- ... ntentions/

i just found all these trying to google for younger healthcare workers waiting in line for the elderly.
they align with the probably dozens of articles i read from jan into the spring where admins of entire health systems were interviewed asking and reporting on why their workers were not taking the vaccine even as shipments were sent directly to hospitals and nursing homes to get staff vaccinated. and not allowed to be used by anyone else, elderly included for a time. i seem to remember cuomo going after a healthcare system in staten island or somewhere when they tried not to waste vaccine.

so safety concerns, natural immunity system, distrust of govt and freedom. where we all started on this topic. relating it to questioning military personnel.

if you could link what i could not find, where younger healthcare workers were patiently waiting for seniors to get their vaccines as the driver for them not taking it up? it would in fact be good to hear that some wide swath was doing this at the time, in numbers approaching the 60-80%+ that cite the reasons above.

[ggait]

if you could link what i could not find, where younger healthcare workers were patiently waiting for seniors to get their vaccines as the driver for them not taking it up? it would in fact be good to hear that some wide swath was doing this at the time, in numbers approaching the 60-80%+ that cite the reasons above.

The data I've seen doesn't show that. The reasons seem to basically be the same as in the general population. Vaccine hesitants (HC workers or not) are younger, less educated, less wealthy, rural, Trumpy, kookey, suspicious, etc.

The docs and pharmacists all get the shots. The nurses and security guards, not so much.

But after the EEOC and federal court cases in May and June, the path is clear for hospitals to fire any remaining hesitants if they want to. Which is appropriate.

[jhu72]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

[MDlaxfan76]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

This article would be consistent with younger, less educated women, and more so African American women..https://www.verywellhealth.com/healthca ... 19-5184207

This one as well. Education looks to be the most important factor given that the highest vaccine acceptance was with physicians.

wgdsr,
I had numerous conversations contemporaneously last winter with friends in healthcare, both older and younger and what I was hearing from the younger ones was that they intended to get vaccinated but weren't going to step in front of older co-workers or older patients...this was Dec/Jan with initial release...presumably that pressure was relieved as vaccine availability picked up. I heard more and more that they'd been vaccinated not long after that.

Which would leave those truly 'hesitant', whether for valid reasons or 'kooky' ones.
I don't happen to have a lot of those relationships, so my 'data' may well have been colored by who I know.

[Bart]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

So are you now going to require health care employees to get the flu vaccine as well? Tis a slippery slope.

Had this conversation with SWMBO just the other day and if her Hospital will require it. Don’t get the flu vaxx, wear mask and face shield when at work. She seems to think they should go that route with the CV-19

[MDlaxfan76]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

So are you now going to require health care employees to get the flu vaccine as well? Tis a slippery slope.

Had this conversation with SWMBO just the other day and if her Hospital will require it. Don’t get the flu vaxx, wear mask and face shield when at work. She seems to think they should go that route with the CV-19

Actually, quite a few health systems have mandatory flu shots with a medical exemption; some states have laws requiring such.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/i ... ments.html

Not so sure how slippery that slope is...

[Bart]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

So are you now going to require health care employees to get the flu vaccine as well? Tis a slippery slope.

Had this conversation with SWMBO just the other day and if her Hospital will require it. Don’t get the flu vaxx, wear mask and face shield when at work. She seems to think they should go that route with the CV-19

Actually, quite a few health systems have mandatory flu shots with a medical exemption; some states have laws requiring such.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/i ... ments.html

Not so sure how slippery that slope is...

Not all states. Not ours. Slippery slope started years ago.

[jhu72]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

This article would be consistent with younger, less educated women, and more so African American women..https://www.verywellhealth.com/healthca ... 19-5184207

This one as well. Education looks to be the most important factor given that the highest vaccine acceptance was with physicians.

wgdsr,
I had numerous conversations contemporaneously last winter with friends in healthcare, both older and younger and what I was hearing from the younger ones was that they intended to get vaccinated but weren't going to step in front of older co-workers or older patients...this was Dec/Jan with initial release...presumably that pressure was relieved as vaccine availability picked up. I heard more and more that they'd been vaccinated not long after that.

Which would leave those truly 'hesitant', whether for valid reasons or 'kooky' ones.
I don't happen to have a lot of those relationships, so my 'data' may well have been colored by who I know.

... no question the better educated were less hesitant in my wife's organization, although this was modulated by pregnancy status. Not all but the majority of pregnant docs were in no hurry to be first in line.

[MDlaxfan76]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

This article would be consistent with younger, less educated women, and more so African American women..https://www.verywellhealth.com/healthca ... 19-5184207

This one as well. Education looks to be the most important factor given that the highest vaccine acceptance was with physicians.

wgdsr,
I had numerous conversations contemporaneously last winter with friends in healthcare, both older and younger and what I was hearing from the younger ones was that they intended to get vaccinated but weren't going to step in front of older co-workers or older patients...this was Dec/Jan with initial release...presumably that pressure was relieved as vaccine availability picked up. I heard more and more that they'd been vaccinated not long after that.

Which would leave those truly 'hesitant', whether for valid reasons or 'kooky' ones.
I don't happen to have a lot of those relationships, so my 'data' may well have been colored by who I know.

... no question the better educated were less hesitant in my wife's organization, although this was modulated by pregnancy status. Not all but the majority of pregnant docs were in no hurry to be first in line.

And that was indeed a quite reasonable concern in those early days.

[wgdsr]

if you could link what i could not find, where younger healthcare workers were patiently waiting for seniors to get their vaccines as the driver for them not taking it up? it would in fact be good to hear that some wide swath was doing this at the time, in numbers approaching the 60-80%+ that cite the reasons above.

The data I've seen doesn't show that. The reasons seem to basically be the same as in the general population. Vaccine hesitants (HC workers or not) are younger, less educated, less wealthy, rural, Trumpy, kookey, suspicious, etc.

The docs and pharmacists all get the shots. The nurses and security guards, not so much.

But after the EEOC and federal court cases in May and June, the path is clear for hospitals to fire any remaining hesitants if they want to. Which is appropriate.

you forgot minorities.

you'd know better than me whether several court cases decided will be the end of it. i tend to think maybe not, but that's just gut instinct... what i and we've had going since the beginning of covid pandemic 2019-21. i do consider there to be a pretty big dividing line between private and public enterprise on this. at least as a eua.

as far as the military, looks like they're up above 70%, some branches better than others. with a possible mandate looming if fully approved by fall.

what i could not find before i originally chimed in was all the chaos this was causing in the ranks. tho that was a quick search, and maybe classified or at least not widely publicized.

[jhu72]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

So are you now going to require health care employees to get the flu vaccine as well? Tis a slippery slope.

Had this conversation with SWMBO just the other day and if her Hospital will require it. Don’t get the flu vaxx, wear mask and face shield when at work. She seems to think they should go that route with the CV-19

This is a large national (multi-state) HMO. I assume they follow relevant state law for flu shots. This is not the flu. Based on court case already mentioned, my understanding is they intend to make it mandatory come fall. I don't know what the hesitancy numbers are for the organization nationwide, but the North Baltimore region is on the order of 10%. I can see in non-clinical jobs going with something voluntary, but not the clinical jobs or those employees who daily work with clinicians.

[ggait]

you'd know better than me whether several court cases decided will be the end of it. i tend to think maybe not, but that's just gut instinct...

It is up to the hospitals now.

Houston Methodist is close to 99% vaccinated. After they won their court case, the hesitants took the shot, quit, or got fired. Pretty simple stuff.

Mandatory flu shots have been common in many places for a long time.

Given how infectious hospitals are anyway, the hospital president and board have to be stupid and/or kooks to not require vaccinations. And should also have their liability insurance paid up.


Among the nation's 50 largest hospitals, the percentage of unvaccinated health care workers appears to be even larger, about 1 in 3. Vaccination rates range from a high of 99% at Houston Methodist Hospital, which was the first in the nation to mandate the shots for its workers, to a low between 30% and 40% at some hospitals in Florida.

[Bart]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

So are you now going to require health care employees to get the flu vaccine as well? Tis a slippery slope.

Had this conversation with SWMBO just the other day and if her Hospital will require it. Don’t get the flu vaxx, wear mask and face shield when at work. She seems to think they should go that route with the CV-19

This is a large national (multi-state) HMO. I assume they follow relevant state law for flu shots. This is not the flu. Based on court case already mentioned, my understanding is they intend to make it mandatory come fall. I don't know what the hesitancy numbers are for the organization nationwide, but the North Baltimore region is on the order of 10%. I can see in non-clinical jobs going with something voluntary, but not the clinical jobs or those employees who daily work with clinicians.

It’s not the flu? Really? Do tell.

The flu was an example.

If its 10% do you think these hospitals and systems can handle a 10% decrease in their RN staffing? I highly doubt that. Where my bride works they are already short staffed. Worse on the floors.

Sounds good, we’ll just fire those who don’t comply. Great, now staff the place. The MD’s certainty aren’t going to pick up this slack. Pay the patient care staff more to work? The hospital’s are already crying poor.

[MDlaxfan76]

100% of employed HC workers will soon be vaccinated.

Some nurses sued their Houston, TX hospital system complaining that their civil rights were being violated by their employer requiring vaccinations. Claimed that forcing them to take an "experimental" vaccine violated the Nuremberg code. The federal judge said GMAFB and dismissed their case. So as of a couple weeks ago, you're going to get fired from your HC job if you won't take a shot. Totally correct result legally and medically.

Turns out that it is the least scientifically sophisticated HC workers who have been the ones refusing the shots. All the docs, nurse practicioners, PAs, midwives have gotten the shots. Nurses are basically the only ones who are hesitant. And also non-HC provider employees -- food service workers, security personnel, etc.

So the vaccine hesitancy from the HC worker population is completely unconvincing to me. Just proves that there are Trumper partisans and goofballs everywhere, and (no surprise) their numbers increase as medical sophistication decreases.

According to wifey, a lot of the HC issue early on was caused by minorities and pregnant women. In her organization both of these situations have improved significantly. They are not yet requiring shots to hold onto jobs, but will shortly.

So I suppose all those pregnant women and minorities your wife is familiar with are "Trumper partisans and goofballs". Additionally, the black community appears to be hesitant to receive the shot....I guess they are Trumper partisans and goofballs too.

... you can suppose all you like, but you would be wrong. In her organization in a deep blue state, the employees who early on did not get the vaccine although eligible were pregnant women of all races and education levels, concerned about health effects on the baby; or largely lessor educated African American and Hispanic men and women concerned about the USA's spotty history in treating people of color. Passage of time and positive results solved the problem for the pregnant women. Significant effort in education inside and outside the organization, greater feeling of community comfort and passage of time largely resolved the problem for African Americans and Hispanics. There remain some holdouts in the organization (at most 10% of employees). The remaining holdouts will have a job / career choice to make come the fall.

So are you now going to require health care employees to get the flu vaccine as well? Tis a slippery slope.

Had this conversation with SWMBO just the other day and if her Hospital will require it. Don’t get the flu vaxx, wear mask and face shield when at work. She seems to think they should go that route with the CV-19

This is a large national (multi-state) HMO. I assume they follow relevant state law for flu shots. This is not the flu. Based on court case already mentioned, my understanding is they intend to make it mandatory come fall. I don't know what the hesitancy numbers are for the organization nationwide, but the North Baltimore region is on the order of 10%. I can see in non-clinical jobs going with something voluntary, but not the clinical jobs or those employees who daily work with clinicians.

It’s not the flu? Really? Do tell.

The flu was an example.

If its 10% do you think these hospitals and systems can handle a 10% decrease in their RN staffing? I highly doubt that. Where my bride works they are already short staffed. Worse on the floors.

Sounds good, we’ll just fire those who don’t comply. Great, now staff the place. The MD’s certainty aren’t going to pick up this slack. Pay the patient care staff more to work? The hospital’s are already crying poor.

Note that Houston Methodist got to 99% with a mandate, remainder had medical exemptions...very, very few left their jobs over it. Would think the results would be similar with a health system in Maryland.

The key is to be sure to have a fair process for medical exemptions.

[ggait]

More than 150 Houston Methodist Hospital employees were officially out of a job Tuesday, 10 days after a judge dismissed a lawsuit against the hospital by employees who opposed a Covid-19 vaccine mandate as a condition of employment, a hospital spokesperson said.

The 153 employees either resigned in the two-week suspension period that began June 8 or were terminated Tuesday, according to Gale Smith.

The hesitants quit or got canned.