President Donald J. Trump—Part ll

[Kismet]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

[old salt]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? Trump did not get up on his own. The SS decided when to get him up & move him to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

[MDlaxfan76]

The SS has limited resources and is tasked with many events, with varying levels of resources applied to such. They do not have the manpower themselves to control all situations, especially if a candidate wishes to relax elements of the security for the purposes of the campaign. Which is more typical than not. So, they coordinate with local and state police to augment what they can and provide expertise that a local police force may not have for such.

Clearly there were security lapses in this event. Surely the SS will be implicated to some extent in those lapses, at least in managing the overall execution, but there are very likely other players involved, both local policing and the campaign.

Let's let this play out before rushing to any conclusions other than there was indeed a lapse.

Regarding "Limited resources": https://rollcall.com/2024/07/14/amid-te ... ed-budget/

Highlights:
- "But the result was a more than 9 percent increase for overall Secret Service appropriations in fiscal 2024, to nearly $3.1 billion, exceeding President Joe Biden’s request by $78 million."

- The overall “protective operations” category — the main source of funding for day-to-day protection of presidents, vice president and their families as well as former presidents and their spouses — was funded at $1.4 billion, a 24 percent increase and again exceeding the president’s request. Within that total, money specifically for presidential campaigns and “national security special events,” like the nominating conventions, more than tripled over the previous fiscal year, to $244 million.



############

Curious about your take here "especially if a candidate wishes to relax elements of security for purposes of campaign". Do you have a specific citation? Regardless, I will make a presumption that any "relax security requests" didn't okay the elimination of overwatch on building roofs with direct sight lines a football field and a half away from outdoor speech podiums?

############

A great deal of information unfolded yesterday including footage of alleged shooter more than a half hour before the shots were fired, acting strangely, and (allegedly) this being noted by law enforcement.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/sig ... -111966629

In this day and age of cell phone video, some exceptionally worrisome snippets have been shared since the event, and thankfully so. The notoriously unreliable eyewitness data (gathered only by eyeballs) of the past has been replaced with camera footage using devices in everyone's pocket that are superior to state of the art news cameras of not too long ago. Doesn't mean everything captured and posted is reliable or useable. But it means the chances of something that IS reliable and useable being captured and shared – that we otherwise wouldn't have – is much greater. This data, assessed by experts, can help investigators unravel what really happened. And also prevent things from being buried or dismissed.

I don't think we have a disagreement on what you wrote, waffle, other than maybe tone.

Yes, campaigns inherently require relaxation of safety preferences of the Secret Service, because candidates don't want too much separation from the people. That's not specific to this candidate. It's been noted multiple times that the candidate has the last word on such, not the SS. That doesn't mean there was a special relaxation here, just that it's a possibility. As I noted, I don't understand why Trump wasn't immediately removed from the podium when the threat was being communicated for at least over a minute. Normally one would assume immediate removal...was there a different protocol? Recall that Trump wanted to override security precautions to allow potentially armed supporters in closer on Jan 6, "they're our people"...so, it's certainly an obvious question as to whether the Trump Campaign had instructed the SS to verify threats before removal, not wanting the imagery and not imagining something like this...

There are indeed multiple questions about the security protocols that either weren't in place or were violated, leading to this calamity and near calamity for Trump himself. Serious questions, agreed.

And yes, funding was increased but that doesn't mean that resources aren't limited. From the little I've read so far, the amount of protective detail was close to or quite comparable for a sitting President, considerably more than a typical campaign protective detail. Which everyone seems to agree is unfortunately appropriate in this extremely fraught time.

As I said, let's let this play out further before rushing to judgment in any direction other than the obvious reality that this involved serious security breakdowns.

On a different note, any thoughts on the weaponry used?...8 shots in rapid succession have been reported...thankfully not more!

[Kismet]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? The agents decided when to get him up & move to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

Yes heard that but how would they know for certain at that point in time that there was only one shooter?

"A spokesman for the SS acknowledged that local police officers had radioed agents about the possible suspicious person on Saturday before Mr. Trump came onstage. And local law enforcement agencies were inside the warehouse building whose roof the gunman used to fire on the rally, the director of the Secret Service said".

[njbill]

They didn’t know if there was a second shooter at that point. The decision to move him to the secured vehicle before knowing with certainty there wasn’t a second shooter probably was wise, but allowing Trump to stand up twice, possibly putting him directly in the line of fire for any second shooter, was a terrible move. Trump is partly to blame for standing up, although he may have been in shock at that point.

My biggest criticism is the Secret Service’s failure to keep Trump off the stage until they were sure that rooftop was secured. It should’ve been obvious to the agent in charge, scanning the landscape with binoculars, that there was no law-enforcement on that roof and, thus, it was not secured.

[MDlaxfan76]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? Trump did not get up on his own. The SS decided when to get him up & move him to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a second shooter, right? Not that I have an issue with them moving him at that point.

I'm not so sure why you think it's obvious that the detail didn't know about the threat before the shots. If not, why not, if others knew?

[old salt]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? The agents decided when to get him up & move to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

Yes heard that but how would they know at that point in time that there was only one shooter?

"A spokesman for the SS acknowledged that local police officers had radioed agents about the possible suspicious person on Saturday before Mr. Trump came onstage. And local law enforcement agencies were inside the warehouse building whose roof the gunman used to fire on the rally, the director of the Secret Service said".

Someone obviously made the decision there was only one shooter & it was safe to move.
I'd expect it to be a decision made by the on-scene commander in the control center after a blanket radio call to the entire net that there were no other shooters visible.

[Kismet]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot *where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? The agents decided when to get him up & move to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

Yes heard that but how would they know at that point in time that there was only one shooter?

"A spokesman for the SS acknowledged that local police officers had radioed agents about the possible suspicious person on Saturday before Mr. Trump came onstage. And local law enforcement agencies were inside the warehouse building whose roof the gunman used to fire on the rally, the director of the Secret Service said".

Someone obviously made the decision there was only one shooter & it was safe to move.
I'd expect it to be a decision made by the on-scene commander in the control center after a blanket radio call to the entire net that there were no other shooters visible.

certainly plausible but it remains not very smart a move to let him evade the bunker security coverage to gesture in the open not once but twice - that cannot be proper protocol?

Frankly, given the initial FUBAR why would you even take a chance like that? Especially when you just got a heads up from CIA that the Iranians were looking to kill Fatso as well.

[old salt]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? Trump did not get up on his own. The SS decided when to get him up & move him to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a second shooter, right? Not that I have an issue with them moving him at that point.

I'm not so sure why you think it's obvious that the detail didn't know about the threat before the shots. If not, why not, if others knew?

If the protective detail had any reason to believe there was a shooter present, they would have immediately provided cover.

If others knew there was a shooter, it obviously was not communicated to the protective detail before shots were fired, or they would have acted sooner..

[MDlaxfan76]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? Trump did not get up on his own. The SS decided when to get him up & move him to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a second shooter, right? Not that I have an issue with them moving him at that point.

I'm not so sure why you think it's obvious that the detail didn't know about the threat before the shots. If not, why not, if others knew?

If the protective detail had any reason to believe there was a shooter present, they would have immediately provided cover.

If others knew there was a shooter, it obviously was not communicated to the protective detail before shots were fired, or they would have acted sooner..

yes, that's one scenario...but not the only one.

Seems to me that a guy with a gun crabbing across a rooftop is a threat, if not already a "shooter".

[old salt]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? Trump did not get up on his own. The SS decided when to get him up & move him to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a second shooter, right? Not that I have an issue with them moving him at that point.

I'm not so sure why you think it's obvious that the detail didn't know about the threat before the shots. If not, why not, if others knew?

If the protective detail had any reason to believe there was a shooter present, they would have immediately provided cover.

If others knew there was a shooter, it obviously was not communicated to the protective detail before shots were fired, or they would have acted sooner..

yes, that's one scenario...but not the only one.

Seems to me that a guy with a gun crabbing across a rooftop is a threat, if not already a "shooter".

...maybe none of the police saw him in time to communicate it to the command center in time to verify it & then alert the protective detail.

It's possible that the report from the crowd, was not related to the police, in time to report it to the command center to inform the counter-sniper team on overwatch to check that roof, or maybe the overwatch could not yet see the shooter behind the peak of the roof.

There needed to be continual overwatch on all roofs & elevated potential firing positions within range of the target.

[NattyBohChamps04]

An interesting synced video of when the dude was first caught on video to the shooting. More than two minutes? That's an eternity. Wonder how much earlier he was spotted before they took the video.

[MDlaxfan76]

I wonder what the explanation is for not getting him off the stage as soon as the call went out about a possible shooter...did the immediate detail know but not act?

It was reported that the escape vehicle was not yet in place. The protocol was to make a human bunker until verified that shooter(s) were neutralized & escape vehicle in place.

"not yet in place"?

Ok, then the question is why not?...and what's the protocol when a shooter is spotted but has not yet pulled the trigger and not neutralized? Surely it isn't to blithely go along with a speech, right? You at least pull him from the stage, surround him with the "human bunker" until you have confirmation of safety...right? All fine, return to speech...

So, why did that not even begin to happen if they had minutes between spotting the shooting threat and the actual shots?

These seem to me to be fair questions, no conclusions.

Apparently they park it away from the stage & have to back it up to a loading spot just off the stairway -- the spot where they loaded it.

Apparently the protocol is to stay down, maintain the human bunker, until the command center verifies that the shooter is down & clears them to get up, move to the escape vehicle & drive away.

Obviously, the agents protecting Trump were not notified that there was a shooter until after the first shots were fired.

Did the command center determine that there was a possible shooter before the first shots were fired, or were they just looking for a suspicious person ?

They allowed him to be out of the human bunker protection protocol not once but twice for his fist pumps and fight expressions likely before a confirmation that they were no other shooters

Did you listen to the audio with the video ? Trump did not get up on his own. The SS decided when to get him up & move him to the vehicle. You could hear the "shooter down" call before they stood him up & began moving.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a second shooter, right? Not that I have an issue with them moving him at that point.

I'm not so sure why you think it's obvious that the detail didn't know about the threat before the shots. If not, why not, if others knew?

If the protective detail had any reason to believe there was a shooter present, they would have immediately provided cover.

If others knew there was a shooter, it obviously was not communicated to the protective detail before shots were fired, or they would have acted sooner..

yes, that's one scenario...but not the only one.

Seems to me that a guy with a gun crabbing across a rooftop is a threat, if not already a "shooter".

...maybe none of the police saw him in time to communicate it to the command center in time to verify it & then alert the protective detail.

It's possible that the report from the crowd, was not related to the police, in time to report it to the command center to inform the counter-sniper team on overwatch to check that roof, or maybe the overwatch could not yet see the shooter behind the peak of the roof.

There needed to be continual overwatch on all roofs & elevated potential firing positions within range of the target.

Right, but that means that an imminent threat, a man with a long gun on a roof 150 yards away, known for more than two minutes, was not relayed to the protective detail...they were unconnected to whatever chatter existed about the threat? We understand that a police officer went up toward the threat but backed off when saw gunman...surely at that moment, the threat should have been 'verified'...

Could a command center really not have informed the protective detail that a threat was being investigated?

[DMac]

It's all part of the conspiracy. The CIA set the ladder up for him, and gave him time to get in position.
They just picked the wrong guy for the job, maroons (I don't miss that shot with my 30-30 WITH SCOPE).

[Typical Lax Dad]

Good casting

[OCanada]

It's all part of the conspiracy. The CIA set the ladder up for him, and gave him time to get in position.
They just picked the wrong guy for the job, maroons (I don't miss that shot with my 30-30 WITH SCOPE).

You do if your target moves as you are pulling the trigger

[DMac]

If I'm taking that shot put your money on me, I aint missing.
Unless, of course, God has one of his angels redirect the bullet
to someone less worthy of living.

[NattyBohChamps04]

We gotta watch out for those librarians and teachers. Such a bad influence on kids these days...

[cradleandshoot]

If I'm taking that shot put your money on me, I aint missing.
Unless, of course, God has one of his angels redirect the bullet
to someone less worthy of living.

But can you make that shot from 150 yards with iron sights?

[DMac]

If I'm taking that shot put your money on me, I aint missing.
Unless, of course, God has one of his angels redirect the bullet
to someone less worthy of living.

But can you make that shot from 150 yards with iron sights?

74 year old vision aint so good (is with a scope though), I can't put those distances together.
Not puttin' my money on me with no scope.