Progressive Ideology

[seacoaster]

a fan wrote: "Facepalm.

I'm trying to figure out what it is you think socialism is."

Exactly. He doesn't really know what you're talking about.

[a fan]

IMO, it is not the Cuba issue, its the inherent logical argument of our debt/deficit spending, constant gov't continuing resolutions, social security running out......and then hearing about free health care, free college, and whatever else is marketed as now free. Kinda like that feeling when you are on the edge of building and get those butterflies in your legs and stomach....you just know you need to back away.

Wanna know how we pay for college for all? Easy.

Here's how much we pay in interest on the debt for each year: $393Billion in 2019, and rising.

Here's how many college students there are in the US, total: ~20,000,000.

And $393 Billion divided by 20 million is?

$19,675.

And the average tuition is at State Colleges? $9,970 for inState. $25,600 for Out of state.

So right now....today.....we have that money. We're wasting that money on NOTHING, because we're too stupid to pay our bills on time.

If you don't believe in free college/trade school, that's cool. But there is NO WAY you can tell me that you think blowing all this money on interest make any fiscal sense at all. We're mortgaging our future for current success.

What we are doing now is WORSE that socialism. At least you have something to show for socialism. Right now, we're blowing our children's future on freaking interest payments. How stupid can a nation this powerful be?

Edited a typo out.....

[youthathletics]

IMO, it is not the Cuba issue, its the inherent logical argument of our debt/deficit spending, constant gov't continuing resolutions, social security running out......and then hearing about free health care, free college, and whatever else is marketed as now free. Kinda like that feeling when you are on the edge of building and get those butterflies in your legs and stomach....you just know you need to back away.

Wanna know how we pay for college for all? Easy.

Here's how much we pay in interest on the debt for each year: $393Billion in 2019, and rising.

Here's how many college students there are in the US, total: ~20,000,000.

And $593 Billion divided by 20 million is?

$19,675.

And the average tuition is at State Colleges? $9,970 for inState. $25,600 for Out of state.

So right now....today.....we have that money. We're wasting that money on NOTHING, because we're too stupid to pay our bills on time.

If you don't believe in free college/trade school, that's cool. But there is NO WAY you can tell me that you think blowing all this money on interest make any fiscal sense at all. We're mortgaging our future for current success.

What we are doing now is WORSE that socialism. At least you have something to show for socialism. Right now, we're blowing our children's future on freaking interest payments. How stupid can a nation this powerful be?

Fair point...and taken.

[a fan]

BTW, Pete....

Which government owned and operated football team are you rooting for tonight?

The Socialized Clemson Tigers, owned and operated by the State of South Carolina?

Or the Socialized LSU Tigers, owned and operated by...well, I forget which State owns LSU. This all gets so complicated.


And while we're at it: where are all the privately owned football teams in this year's Final Four for Football?

I thought the government couldn't do anything right? Guess not.

[Typical Lax Dad]

IMO, it is not the Cuba issue, its the inherent logical argument of our debt/deficit spending, constant gov't continuing resolutions, social security running out......and then hearing about free health care, free college, and whatever else is marketed as now free. Kinda like that feeling when you are on the edge of building and get those butterflies in your legs and stomach....you just know you need to back away.

Wanna know how we pay for college for all? Easy.

Here's how much we pay in interest on the debt for each year: $393Billion in 2019, and rising.

Here's how many college students there are in the US, total: ~20,000,000.

And $593 Billion divided by 20 million is?

$19,675.

And the average tuition is at State Colleges? $9,970 for inState. $25,600 for Out of state.

So right now....today.....we have that money. We're wasting that money on NOTHING, because we're too stupid to pay our bills on time.

If you don't believe in free college/trade school, that's cool. But there is NO WAY you can tell me that you think blowing all this money on interest make any fiscal sense at all. We're mortgaging our future for current success.

What we are doing now is WORSE that socialism. At least you have something to show for socialism. Right now, we're blowing our children's future on freaking interest payments. How stupid can a nation this powerful be?

Fair point...and taken.

Don't eat the cheese. Socialism does not equal communism.

[kramerica.inc]

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/cr ... -medicated. Is this not the American FLP blueprint for America as they understand it? Keep the American population depressed and medicated.

Another content-free post.

Pot meet Kettle.

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/cr ... -medicated. Is this not the American FLP blueprint for America as they understand it? Keep the American population depressed and medicated.

Another content-free post.

Pot meet Kettle.

Don't worry about old seacoaster. When you have nothing to say you just insult people. BTW... I wonder if Mr Seacoaster has taken the time to read all the lengthy FLP propaganda he posts on here. Talk about content free messaging. It takes good old seacoaster 1000 plus words to say nothing at all. Content free and boring as hell.

[Kismet]

Cradle's usual comments denigrating others with whom he disagrees while providing no rational thoughts but only rants reminds me of the famous line from Adam Sandler's Billy Madison comedy -

"Mr. Madison, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

For those who would rather see it, here you go



I'm certain he also hates the guy in the clip, too.

[Peter Brown]

It's endlessly fascinating to see Americans (errr, Democrats, then to a lesser extent neverTrumpers) defend, almost lovingly embrace, socialism. That's not socialism, that's fascism... Amazing. I love it, for entertainment purposes of course. Never stop your enemy when he's making a mistake, so I won't do much other than to admit I am entertained by these posts.

(The best people to knock socialism, of course. are those who suffered through it. But not many of them play(ed) lacrosse.)

In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery (yes, Nazism, Communism, Nationalism, Statism, etc...). Like a pyramid scheme, socialism is ultimately unsustainable because it's based on faulty principles. Collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it's also a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it's inconsistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it's a system that ignores incentives.

But please, my good Democrat friends, keep entertaining us while you parse the definition of socialism!

[cradleandshoot]

Cradle's usual comments denigrating others with whom he disagrees while providing no rational thoughts but only rants reminds me of the famous line from Adam Sandler's Billy Madison comedy -

"Mr. Madison, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

For those who would rather see it, here you go



I'm certain he also hates the guy in the clip, too.

Kizz you are soooooo mean....

[foreverlax]

It's endlessly fascinating to see Americans (errr, Democrats, then to a lesser extent neverTrumpers) defend, almost lovingly embrace, socialism. That's not socialism, that's fascism... Amazing. I love it, for entertainment purposes of course. Never stop your enemy when he's making a mistake, so I won't do much other than to admit I am entertained by these posts.

(The best people to knock socialism, of course. are those who suffered through it. But not many of them play(ed) lacrosse.)

In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery (yes, Nazism, Communism, Nationalism, Statism, etc...). Like a pyramid scheme, socialism is ultimately unsustainable because it's based on faulty principles. Collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it's also a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it's inconsistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it's a system that ignores incentives.

But please, my good Democrat friends, keep entertaining us while you parse the definition of socialism!

There has been no parsing of the definition of socialism. The definition is what it is.

As the American Experiment continues to unfold, there is one fatal flaw in our system and it's the same flaw in every system - Power leads to corruption.

[Peter Brown]

Warren attacking Bernie. She blatantly fed a CNN journo a BS oppo hit that said Bernie said 'a woman can not beat Trump'; she then refused to provide a statement for 12 hours, making it even more obvious it came from her (averyone knows it came from Warren). Her staff of course had no plan to handle the blowback.

Warren is going to sink very fast now. And most of her support will walk over to Bernie.

This crowd on the Democrat side is awful. When Bloomberg starts rising in the polls (which will happen, he's practically buying cotes like a Baltimore mayoral candidate), then the Left will start attacking him.

[Peter Brown]

It's endlessly fascinating to see Americans (errr, Democrats, then to a lesser extent neverTrumpers) defend, almost lovingly embrace, socialism. That's not socialism, that's fascism... Amazing. I love it, for entertainment purposes of course. Never stop your enemy when he's making a mistake, so I won't do much other than to admit I am entertained by these posts.

(The best people to knock socialism, of course. are those who suffered through it. But not many of them play(ed) lacrosse.)

In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery (yes, Nazism, Communism, Nationalism, Statism, etc...). Like a pyramid scheme, socialism is ultimately unsustainable because it's based on faulty principles. Collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it's also a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it's inconsistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it's a system that ignores incentives.

But please, my good Democrat friends, keep entertaining us while you parse the definition of socialism!

There has been no parsing of the definition of socialism. The definition is what it is.

As the American Experiment continues to unfold, there is one fatal flaw in our system and it's the same flaw in every system - Power leads to corruption.

No system is perfect, but our system has produced the greatest country in the history of the world; the most charitable country; the wealthiest; the proudest. We have shed more blood for other countries than all other countries combined.

To the extent our system has a flaw, it has always been government where power has almost always corrupted with no consequence. Politicians and bureaucrats are held in such low regard because they never own the outcomes they cause; they walk away from whatever mess they create, with little to no consequences.

[MDlaxfan76]

It's endlessly fascinating to see Americans (errr, Democrats, then to a lesser extent neverTrumpers) defend, almost lovingly embrace, socialism. That's not socialism, that's fascism... Amazing. I love it, for entertainment purposes of course. Never stop your enemy when he's making a mistake, so I won't do much other than to admit I am entertained by these posts.

(The best people to knock socialism, of course. are those who suffered through it. But not many of them play(ed) lacrosse.)

In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery (yes, Nazism, Communism, Nationalism, Statism, etc...). Like a pyramid scheme, socialism is ultimately unsustainable because it's based on faulty principles. Collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it's also a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it's inconsistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it's a system that ignores incentives.

But please, my good Democrat friends, keep entertaining us while you parse the definition of socialism!

Hmmm, you are ignoring that there are fiscal conservative, capitalist R's like me who are also saying you are conflating various forms of authoritarianism with "socialism".

Authoritarianism is the enemy.
Or at least has been throughout history. There have been no sustained "benevolent dictatorships".

We cannot pin you down on what you think "socialism" actually is. Why is that?
My sense is that because you think any element of socialism is equal to authoritarian versions.

When someone like Sanders, who actually describes himself as as a "socialist", meaning "democratic socialist", advocates for a policy he is not advocating for authoritarianism nor is he advocating for an absolutist, pure form of "socialism" that would require authoritarianism to enforce.

I do think we should challenge such policy prescriptions in terms of costs and benefits, how the policy impacts human behavior.
After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

But we don't need to demonize either Capitalism (which obviously has very major flaws if unrestrained) or Socialism (which does not harness well people's natural desire to compete).

[MDlaxfan76]

It's endlessly fascinating to see Americans (errr, Democrats, then to a lesser extent neverTrumpers) defend, almost lovingly embrace, socialism. That's not socialism, that's fascism... Amazing. I love it, for entertainment purposes of course. Never stop your enemy when he's making a mistake, so I won't do much other than to admit I am entertained by these posts.

(The best people to knock socialism, of course. are those who suffered through it. But not many of them play(ed) lacrosse.)

In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery (yes, Nazism, Communism, Nationalism, Statism, etc...). Like a pyramid scheme, socialism is ultimately unsustainable because it's based on faulty principles. Collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it's also a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it's inconsistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it's a system that ignores incentives.

But please, my good Democrat friends, keep entertaining us while you parse the definition of socialism!

There has been no parsing of the definition of socialism. The definition is what it is.

As the American Experiment continues to unfold, there is one fatal flaw in our system and it's the same flaw in every system - Power leads to corruption.

No system is perfect, but our system has produced the greatest country in the history of the world; the most charitable country; the wealthiest; the proudest. We have shed more blood for other countries than all other countries combined.

To the extent our system has a flaw, it has always been government where power has almost always corrupted with no consequence. Politicians and bureaucrats are held in such low regard because they never own the outcomes they cause; they walk away from whatever mess they create, with little to no consequences.

So, what do you think this political/economic "system" actually is, PB?
Please describe it thoroughly, including explaining how there are not 'socialist' elements throughout as well as regulated capitalism. How does government structure, checks and balances contribute to the success we've enjoyed?

On the government aspect, what form of government would you prefer to ours???

It would also be interesting to understand how you might weigh the scale of natural resources we enjoyed through the 1800's as we expanded, the use of slavery during an era in which the rest of the civilized, capitalist world was banning it, the impact of immigration as a growth driver, the two World Wars depleting the energy and resources of the most powerful economic competitors, the collapse of imperialism and the opening that provided for US global expansion, the strategy of promulgation of international law and institutions...

What are the lessons we might take from this history?

[foreverlax]

Politicians and bureaucrats are held in such low regard because they never own the outcomes they cause; they walk away from whatever mess they create, with little to no consequences.

Completely agree....they should be held to the highest fiduciary standards. Trump should be impeached based on the lies he tells....

Ever wonder why you never see CEO's doing the perp walk? Why are they able to pay fines without admitting guilt?

[Peter Brown]

It's endlessly fascinating to see Americans (errr, Democrats, then to a lesser extent neverTrumpers) defend, almost lovingly embrace, socialism. That's not socialism, that's fascism... Amazing. I love it, for entertainment purposes of course. Never stop your enemy when he's making a mistake, so I won't do much other than to admit I am entertained by these posts.

(The best people to knock socialism, of course. are those who suffered through it. But not many of them play(ed) lacrosse.)

In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery (yes, Nazism, Communism, Nationalism, Statism, etc...). Like a pyramid scheme, socialism is ultimately unsustainable because it's based on faulty principles. Collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it's also a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it's inconsistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it's a system that ignores incentives.

But please, my good Democrat friends, keep entertaining us while you parse the definition of socialism!

Hmmm, you are ignoring that there are fiscal conservative, capitalist R's like me who are also saying you are conflating various forms of authoritarianism with "socialism".

Authoritarianism is the enemy.
Or at least has been throughout history. There have been no sustained "benevolent dictatorships".

We cannot pin you down on what you think "socialism" actually is. Why is that?
My sense is that because you think any element of socialism is equal to authoritarian versions.

When someone like Sanders, who actually describes himself as as a "socialist", meaning "democratic socialist", advocates for a policy he is not advocating for authoritarianism nor is he advocating for an absolutist, pure form of "socialism" that would require authoritarianism to enforce.

I do think we should challenge such policy prescriptions in terms of costs and benefits, how the policy impacts human behavior.
After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

But we don't need to demonize either Capitalism (which obviously has very major flaws if unrestrained) or Socialism (which does not harness well people's natural desire to compete).

I thought I did. Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Straight from Dr. Google.

What it really means is no one is incentivized and no one owns the outcome. You know and I know that if our companies mess up, the ultimate owner of the mess is the owner, not line guys or secretaries or sales people. Socialism creeps in via a slow eradication of incentives; at the end of its predictable life, everyone seeks to avoid ownership of the mess the created. That opens the door for authoritariansim.

Socialism can best be seen via Section 8/public housing projects versus private home ownership. Look at the difference in the lawn, the paint, wood preservation, colors, safety, the sense of community...this should be easy to understand (and see), but there's always been a strong incentive (mostly among Democrats) to portray socialism as an ideal paradise, when it's anything but; Democrats (I was one) trust government, indeed worship government (longer theory, but government writ large is in essence simply the exchange of authority from you to another, where you do not have the confidence to manage your own affairs), when the last thing you should ever do is trust a partner where your partner never owns any outcome between the two of you.

[Typical Lax Dad]

It's endlessly fascinating to see Americans (errr, Democrats, then to a lesser extent neverTrumpers) defend, almost lovingly embrace, socialism. That's not socialism, that's fascism... Amazing. I love it, for entertainment purposes of course. Never stop your enemy when he's making a mistake, so I won't do much other than to admit I am entertained by these posts.

(The best people to knock socialism, of course. are those who suffered through it. But not many of them play(ed) lacrosse.)

In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery (yes, Nazism, Communism, Nationalism, Statism, etc...). Like a pyramid scheme, socialism is ultimately unsustainable because it's based on faulty principles. Collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it's also a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it's inconsistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it's a system that ignores incentives.

But please, my good Democrat friends, keep entertaining us while you parse the definition of socialism!

Hmmm, you are ignoring that there are fiscal conservative, capitalist R's like me who are also saying you are conflating various forms of authoritarianism with "socialism".

Authoritarianism is the enemy.
Or at least has been throughout history. There have been no sustained "benevolent dictatorships".

We cannot pin you down on what you think "socialism" actually is. Why is that?
My sense is that because you think any element of socialism is equal to authoritarian versions.

When someone like Sanders, who actually describes himself as as a "socialist", meaning "democratic socialist", advocates for a policy he is not advocating for authoritarianism nor is he advocating for an absolutist, pure form of "socialism" that would require authoritarianism to enforce.

I do think we should challenge such policy prescriptions in terms of costs and benefits, how the policy impacts human behavior.
After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

But we don't need to demonize either Capitalism (which obviously has very major flaws if unrestrained) or Socialism (which does not harness well people's natural desire to compete).

I thought I did. Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Straight from Dr. Google.

What it really means is no one is incentivized and no one owns the outcome. You know and I know that if our companies mess up, the ultimate owner of the mess is the owner, not line guys or secretaries or sales people. Socialism creeps in via a slow eradication of incentives; at the end of its predictable life, everyone seeks to avoid ownership of the mess the created. That opens the door for authoritariansim.

Socialism can best be seen via Section 8/public housing projects versus private home ownership. Look at the difference in the lawn, the paint, wood preservation, colors, safety, the sense of community...this should be easy to understand (and see), but there's always been a strong incentive (mostly among Democrats) to portray socialism as an ideal paradise, when it's anything but; Democrats (I was one) trust government, indeed worship government (longer theory, but government writ large is in essence simply the exchange of authority from you to another, where you do not have the confidence to manage your own affairs), when the last thing you should ever do is trust a partner where your partner never owns any outcome between the two of you.

1.2 million out of 128 million households are section 8. You may as well compare the outcome of a typical middle class family to the 1% and make an argument as to why the country is failing them or why we have the wrong approach. Of that 1.2, most received temporary assistance and then move off the roles. Some are generational but its a small percentage.

[Peter Brown]

Bernie is gonnna win this Dem contest; when Warren drops out, Bernie will coast.

And to know what Dems then are going to need to advocate for, read Bernie's Corporate Accountability and Democracy Act:

https://berniesanders.com/issues/corpor ... democracy/

Bernie's plan would force companies to give workers 20% of the shares in their companies and 45% of board seats. Ummm, anyone sniff socialism here? Forced equity give-ups, Board seats...I hope a fan and MD and foreverlax and TLD understand what they are about to embrace b/c remember: a piece of wood over Trump.

Bernie's declaring war on unfettered capitalism...so will you.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cbpp.org/research/housing/n ... heets-data