LaxPower Back-Up Stick

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:15 pm**

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:53 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:43 pm Had he not ordered the withdrawal, pulled all our forces back to the airport in Kabul, then expected them to control the gates...

Biden ignored the advice of the military & gave them a mission impossible. The buck stops where ?
And had he stayed, as you asked, we'd likely have 16 more dead Americans in 2022 and 2023, with the meter still running. It's possible it would be less, sure. But it was also possible that it would have been more than 16.

There wasn't a winning move. Didn't exist.

Trump followed the advice of the military, right? How'd that work out? Worse than for Biden, correct?

This is in keeping and agreeing 100% with your statement that combat losses are not linear.

It's the theme of the movie War Games: "the only winning move is: not to play". You want to take this path in Ukraine, yeah?

Well, I wanted to take this path for Afghanistan. Obama and Trump failed on this count. Biden succeeded.

Sometimes not losing (or winning, for now) is the best outcome that can be expected.

Iraq is still not back to where it was in 2010 before Obama ordered our total pull out, unleashing ISIS, with all the death & destruction which forced our return, We're still there (at an acceptable level).

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:25 pm**

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:15 pm Sometimes not losing (or winning, for now) is the best outcome that can be expected.

I don't agree with your assessment. We went to Afghanistan to wipe out those who hit us. We accomplished that goal the day OBL was popped. I agree that we had to go, but I disagree in that our military achieved the objectives we gave them. Amazing work, really. We won.

The problems arrived when Obama kept us there, even though the mission was done.

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:15 pm Iraq is still not back to where it was in 2010 before Obama ordered our total pull out, unleashing ISIS, with all the death & destruction which forced our return, We're still there (at an acceptable level).

We disagree here in that it's clear that Obama's pull out isn't what caused ISIS. What caused ISIS was our choice to remove an elected leader in Iran, followed by our choice to prop up Saddam to fight the foe WE CREATED in Iran, followed by our choice to remove him and gut Iraq's power.

That all led to a power void in the region, which compounded our problems in Iran, and eventually led to ISIS as Obama tried to get us the F out of that mess....a mess he didn't create.

The same line of thinking that led to alllll those problems in Iran and Iraq is the same line of thinking we used when Trump and then Biden decided to arm Ukraine.

The way of thinking is the problem. This is what you call my "one size fits all" way of sorting events.

What it really is is understanding that yep, each situation is different. The problem, imho, is that the US uses the same line of thinking to tackle all these very different problems. Namely "we just need to arm the 'correct' guy, and this will fall in our favor".

We were doing it again in Taiwan, until Biden stepped in to sign the Chips act: this is a DIFFERENT way of tackling the problem. Good for him, is what I say to that.

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:47 pm**

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:25 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:15 pm Sometimes not losing (or winning, for now) is the best outcome that can be expected.
I don't agree with your assessment. We went to Afghanistan to wipe out those who hit us. We accomplished that goal the day OBL was popped. I agree that we had to go, but I disagree in that our military achieved the objectives we gave them. Amazing work, really. We won.

The problems arrived when Obama kept us there, even though the mission was done.

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:15 pm Iraq is still not back to where it was in 2010 before Obama ordered our total pull out, unleashing ISIS, with all the death & destruction which forced our return, We're still there (at an acceptable level).
We disagree here in that it's clear that Obama's pull out isn't what caused ISIS. What caused ISIS was our choice to remove an elected leader in Iran, followed by our choice to prop up Saddam to fight the foe WE CREATED in Iran, followed by our choice to remove him and gut Iraq's power.

That all led to a power void in the region, which compounded our problems in Iran, and eventually led to ISIS as Obama tried to get us the F out of that mess....a mess he didn't create.

The same line of thinking that led to alllll those problems in Iran and Iraq is the same line of thinking we used when Trump and then Biden decided to arm Ukraine.

The way of thinking is the problem. This is what you call my "one size fits all" way of sorting events.

What it really is is understanding that yep, each situation is different. The problem, imho, is that the US uses the same line of thinking to tackle all these very different problems. Namely "we just need to arm the 'correct' guy, and this will fall in our favor".

We were doing it again in Taiwan, until Biden stepped in to sign the Chips act: this is a DIFFERENT way of tackling the problem. Good for him, is what I say to that.

I'm talking about the proximate cause in 2010, before ISIS arose. You're turning the clock back to the 1950's.

If you're firing up the wayback machine :
-- I did not support our fomenting revolution & regime change in Ukraine in 2004 & again in 2014.
-- I opposed expanding NATO all the way to (& into) Russia's former borders.
We're now witnessing the ultimate result.
Selective hindsight is perfect.

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:02 pm**

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:47 pm I'm talking about the proximate cause in 2010, before ISIS arose. You're turning the clock back to the 1950's.

That's not the proximate cause. Obliterating Saddam and his army created a power void, leading to ISIS.

How is it ok to drop in and revise history in 2010, but it's not ok to go to 1953? Same players. Same problems. Same bad outcomes from our choices. All fruit from the exact. same. tree.

Would you prefer to start on Oct. 10, 2002? That was our chance to not create ISIS by destabilizing the entire region by stupidly removing Saddam and his army.

Obama voted NO on Oct 10th, btw. If Hillary wasn't a blithering idiot, she would have voted "no", too.

And there would NEVER have been an ISIS. And Iran would be held in check this very day.

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:07 pm**

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:43 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:02 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:53 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:38 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:34 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:27 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 5:56 pm ... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.
There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.
Some of us still care, but there's nothing we can do about it, ...except elect a different CinC in 16 mos.
We tried that. We elected Trump. 16.25 soldiers died every year over there under his rule.

How's Biden's average looking for his Presidency? Better. His numbers are better. Grateful for that.
Combat losses are not linear. It's not that simple.
That's right.

Which is why the complaining about Biden doing it wrong are hollow complaints.
Had he not ordered the withdrawal, pulled all our forces back to the airport in Kabul, then expected them to control the gates...

Biden ignored the advice of the military & gave them a mission impossible. The buck stops where ?

Trump struck a deal with the Taliban and then left a skeleton crew. Like everything he does…… fkuc it up and let someone else take the blame. It’s his life long MO…..

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:47 pm**

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:02 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:47 pm I'm talking about the proximate cause in 2010, before ISIS arose. You're turning the clock back to the 1950's.
That's not the proximate cause. Obliterating Saddam and his army created a power void, leading to ISIS.

How is it ok to drop in and revise history in 2010, but it's not ok to go to 1953? Same players. Same problems. Same bad outcomes from our choices. All fruit from the exact. same. tree.

Would you prefer to start on Oct. 10, 2002? That was our chance to not create ISIS by destabilizing the entire region by stupidly removing Saddam and his army.

Obama voted NO on Oct 10th, btw. If Hillary wasn't a blithering idiot, she would have voted "no", too.

And there would NEVER have been an ISIS. And Iran would be held in check this very day.

The power void was being filled by the Iraqi govt & the ISF, so long as we were there to suport, advise & assist them. They were doing the fighting & dying.

Remember the article by Dexter Filkins I posted about his return to Iraq in 2010 & how much things had improved ?

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:23 pm**

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:47 pm Remember the article by Dexter Filkins I posted about his return to Iraq in 2010 & how much things had improved ?

I do. But these things are relative, and ignores that by the time 2010 hit, the US was directly or indirectly responsible for 100's of thousands of deaths in the immediate region. That's a lot of pain, suffering, and death.....all to save a few bucks at the gas station.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:29 am**

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:23 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:47 pm Remember the article by Dexter Filkins I posted about his return to Iraq in 2010 & how much things had improved ?
I do. But these things are relative, and ignores that by the time 2010 hit, the US was directly or indirectly responsible for 100's of thousands of deaths in the immediate region. That's a lot of pain, suffering, and death.....all to save a few bucks at the gas station.

Granted. But by 2010, what was done was done. Iraq was healing. We were helping that healing with our presence. Our total pullout, allowing ISIS to invade from Syria, swept away all that progress.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:37 am**

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:29 am
a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:23 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:47 pm Remember the article by Dexter Filkins I posted about his return to Iraq in 2010 & how much things had improved ?
I do. But these things are relative, and ignores that by the time 2010 hit, the US was directly or indirectly responsible for 100's of thousands of deaths in the immediate region. That's a lot of pain, suffering, and death.....all to save a few bucks at the gas station.
Granted. But by 2010, what was done was done. Iraq was healing. We were helping that healing with our presence. Our total pullout, allowing ISIS to invade from Syria, swept away all that progress.

One way to look at it. Another? We wiped out tens of thousands of terrorists in a matter of months, because unlike AlQ, they were crazy enough to step out in the open.

The progress, such as it was, is still there. Iraq is the same mess it's been since we made the insane decision to invade.

Let's let this go, and move on. Don't want to drag you in circles.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:40 am**

a fan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:37 am
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:29 am
a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:23 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:47 pm Remember the article by Dexter Filkins I posted about his return to Iraq in 2010 & how much things had improved ?
I do. But these things are relative, and ignores that by the time 2010 hit, the US was directly or indirectly responsible for 100's of thousands of deaths in the immediate region. That's a lot of pain, suffering, and death.....all to save a few bucks at the gas station.
Granted. But by 2010, what was done was done. Iraq was healing. We were helping that healing with our presence. Our total pullout, allowing ISIS to invade from Syria, swept away all that progress.
One way to look at it. Another? We wiped out tens of thousands of terrorists in a matter of months, because unlike AlQ, they were crazy enough to step out in the open.

The progress, such as it was, is still there. Iraq is the same mess it's been since we made the insane decision to invade.

Let's let this go, and move on. Don't want to drag you in circles.

Correction -- the Dexter Filkins article I referring to was in 2008, at the end of the surge.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... able/8770/
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/worl ... anbar.html

Speaking of Dexter Filkins, his recent Frontline documentary on Fallujah is worth a watch if you haven't seen it.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/docu ... -fallujah/

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:11 am**

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:40 am
a fan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:37 am
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:29 am
a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:23 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:47 pm Remember the article by Dexter Filkins I posted about his return to Iraq in 2010 & how much things had improved ?
I do. But these things are relative, and ignores that by the time 2010 hit, the US was directly or indirectly responsible for 100's of thousands of deaths in the immediate region. That's a lot of pain, suffering, and death.....all to save a few bucks at the gas station.
Granted. But by 2010, what was done was done. Iraq was healing. We were helping that healing with our presence. Our total pullout, allowing ISIS to invade from Syria, swept away all that progress.
One way to look at it. Another? We wiped out tens of thousands of terrorists in a matter of months, because unlike AlQ, they were crazy enough to step out in the open.

The progress, such as it was, is still there. Iraq is the same mess it's been since we made the insane decision to invade.

Let's let this go, and move on. Don't want to drag you in circles.
Correction -- the Dexter Filkins article I referring to was in 2008, at the end of the surge.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... able/8770/
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/worl ... anbar.html

Speaking of Dexter Filkins, his recent Frontline documentary on Fallujah is worth a watch if you haven't seen it.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/docu ... -fallujah/

I have not. I'll give it a whirl, thank you.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:31 am**

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:07 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:43 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:02 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:53 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:38 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:34 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 6:27 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 5:56 pm ... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.
There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.
Some of us still care, but there's nothing we can do about it, ...except elect a different CinC in 16 mos.
We tried that. We elected Trump. 16.25 soldiers died every year over there under his rule.

How's Biden's average looking for his Presidency? Better. His numbers are better. Grateful for that.
Combat losses are not linear. It's not that simple.
That's right.

Which is why the complaining about Biden doing it wrong are hollow complaints.
Had he not ordered the withdrawal, pulled all our forces back to the airport in Kabul, then expected them to control the gates...

Biden ignored the advice of the military & gave them a mission impossible. The buck stops where ?
Trump struck a deal with the Taliban and then left a skeleton crew. Like everything he does…… fkuc it up and let someone else take the blame. It’s his life long MO…..

Hillaryous........did tRump get T.A.R.P. funds? Or any of the Savings and Loan welfare bailouts from the early 90's ?

Guess....he never was "big" enough to fail .....

Didn't Biden just " bail out" a bank, recently ?

yeah.....ONLY tRump has a history of f'ing up

Wells Fargo blames Lizzie Warren......right

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:37 am**

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:00 pm
tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:05 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:52 am
tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:38 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:44 am At least Biden tries to govern, plan and execute policies, and old, out of date stuff like that. On the other side there is Comer, Andy Biggs, Boebert, Greene, Santos, and the invertebrate Speaker, doing literally nothing but perform and prop up the electoral prospects of a moron. Cheney says the root problem is that the country is electing idiots; she's not talking about Democrats.
After how the Dems, MSM, FBI/DOJ have comported themselves over the last few years, what would you expect?
The first part of your sentence is silly, of course, but I expect a political party to attempt to govern. Roll out proposed bills, negotiate in good faith aimed at consensus. The GOP appears to have stopped doing this.
Ha! I'm being silly... You cast blame in one direction only. That's beyond silly.
Tell me the things for which you blame Democrats. Maybe we’ll agree on some of them.

oh please... I've stated many times that there is plenty of blame to go around and bad actors on both sides.

How about we cut to the chase and not waste time/effort and avoid getting to the point where you say nasty things?

If you care to, you go ahead and list what you blame Dems for. With your admitted bias, it should be a short list, if any at all.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:49 am**

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:37 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:00 pm
tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:05 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:52 am
tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:38 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:44 am At least Biden tries to govern, plan and execute policies, and old, out of date stuff like that. On the other side there is Comer, Andy Biggs, Boebert, Greene, Santos, and the invertebrate Speaker, doing literally nothing but perform and prop up the electoral prospects of a moron. Cheney says the root problem is that the country is electing idiots; she's not talking about Democrats.
After how the Dems, MSM, FBI/DOJ have comported themselves over the last few years, what would you expect?
The first part of your sentence is silly, of course, but I expect a political party to attempt to govern. Roll out proposed bills, negotiate in good faith aimed at consensus. The GOP appears to have stopped doing this.
Ha! I'm being silly... You cast blame in one direction only. That's beyond silly.
Tell me the things for which you blame Democrats. Maybe we’ll agree on some of them.
oh please... I've stated many times that there is plenty of blame to go around and bad actors on both sides.

How about we cut to the chase and not waste time/effort and avoid getting to the point where you say nasty things?

If you care to, you go ahead and list what you blame Dems for. With your admitted bias, it should be a short list, if any at all.

good take. and, my bet is on your last for words. You won't get a reply. Or list.

but, here IS an easy one.

ALL......democratic US Senators voted to give "immunity" to all things covid. 2020 CARES act.

And......ALL, but a couple of democratic US house members voted to offer up $4 trillion in welfare .. 2020 CARES act.

Oh....and what was the VOTE for the most recent NDA ? Ya know, welfare spending for the killing machine industry.

exactly taats

the tRump big foot portal , "classified" document grab from Floridas marry Ringo ....another great distraction.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 7:10 am**

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:01 pm
tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:45 am A lot of generalizations here a fan. Some progressives may not like some policies but deep in their souls, love him, for the very reasons above (their useful idiot)
You're doing that thing that partisans do, where you pretend there's no American center. Millions of us are in the center.....which is what makes it the center in the first place. Actual progressives? They know Biden is a Corporate Dem, and a Neo-Con, and can't stand that he's sold out the working class. Ask one. They'll be happy to tell you, as NattyBoh just did. Do you think it's a mistake that Biden left Trump's massive Corporate Tax giveaway in place? BTW.....remember mocking me for telling you that it's impossible for Trump's cut to "pay for itself", and that I needed to be patient?
You think I'm being partisan, fine. No matter what criticism anyone offers, someone is sure to slap a label on it. Sign of the times and you're entrenched. And sorry my use of progressive doesn't fit your definition. I think anyone who cares, knows what/who I'm referring to. You missed the point, within the Trump context, all libs, Dems, progs, love Biden. It's that simple.

You don't come off as "centered," at least not on fanlax.

Mocking you? That's revisionist history. As I recall, you were the mocker as some of us optimistically, wanted to see/hoped for, higher GDP #s based on the new admin and their policies.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:58 am**

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:01 pmLook it up if you don't believe me.

I believe you. But I also remember you heckling posters and claiming they had TDS when we complained about Trump's behaviors.
Oh please, with all the sh!t that's been thrown around on this board for years, mostly by libs/progs/Dems, TDS is benign.

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:38 pm Maybe.

Libertarians are now so far gone that they don't support an infrastructure bill? Okay. That means we're F'ed long term.
You're confusing non-support with skepticism. We'll see if anything good comes from it.

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:38 pm I agree on Ukraine and have said as much on here.

Do you think Biden Admin's zeal to destroy Putin has anything to do with the botched Afghan pullout? Great way to save face, look tough in eyes of world leaders after such a disaster?

I think that anyone rational thinks that Biden did just fine in the pullout.
Rational? Wow... okay a fan, whatever you say.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Old Salt, a man with military experience, and he couldn't give me an answer:
I'm quite certain OS gave you an answer, but at the time, you most likey weren't listening and/or didn't like his reply or were too determined to turn it into a straw man argument or gotcha moment.

Give me your plan for pulling out of Afghanistan quickly with fewer than 13 American deaths.

Now before you answer, remember the math: in the last five years previous to the 2021 withdrawal, we had 15, 16, 23, and 11 deaths. So that means that if you take your time, and stay for 12 months past Biden's 2021 withdrawal, you'll have 16.25 deaths.

Good luck beating Biden's 13 deaths. Want OS's response? His response was: don't leave. Which means he concedes the 16.25 deaths per year in perpetuity. Which also means that Biden's evac was better by a mile.

Let's hear your withdrawal plan. Did you notice how many KIA's we had in 2022, and 2023? Big fat, beautiful ZERO.

I'm OVERJOYED that Biden got us out of there, after Obama failed to pull us out the day after we popped Bin Laden----which was the ENTIRE REASON we went in in the first place. Mission accomplished, get the F out. Obama could have both gotten us out, AND given our troops closure and the feeling of a finished job.
Ooofa... I'll be brief here since this has been discussed/argued ad nauseam. MY plan? Ha! I'll just add that the excuse blaming Trump for timeline forcing Biden's folly is total BS. Biden could have changed the timeline in anyway he wished. He was now in driver seat after all.

My problem is there was no Biden "plan," he simply pulled the plug. For me, there's the rub... timing and lack of a logical plan.

I agree with what OS has said many times, holding on to Bagram and all it's resources, would had made perfect sense.

I also have to agree with those who say, the weakness/stupidity shown with the impulsive/reckless Afghan departure, emboldened Putin to move on Ukraine.

And as I mentioned in another post... the Biden Admin, eager for a face-saving war, has obliged.

That said and despite the Bagram debacle, glad we're out. Don't get upset, both can simultaneously be true. Hope that suffices a fan.

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 4:38 pm Again, maybe.

This is in response to the Chip Act. So this means you prefer that we continue to be dependent on computer Chips from Taiwan and other places. Do I have that right?
No, that's not right a fan. It will be a positive IMO if it actually happens. Again, skeptical, that's all.

Wasn't the concept of Chip Act first floated by Trump Admin? And, I have to wonder, if things were flipped and it was a republican initiative, would the bi-partisanship (although narrow) that allowed it to pass, hold up? Probably not.
[/quote]

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:35 am**

Natty, this is a TERRIFIC list. Thanks for posting it. It's very telling that our erstwhile conservative friends gloss over the list and just snicker it away (..."a captive believer" What the heck??) completely without comment on the specifics. WHERE IS TRUMP'S list?

THIS list is what center-left GOVERNING looks like. Is there ANYTHING in that great list, beyond the "bipartisan infrastructure bill" (which was HUGE ACCOMPLISHMENT, for Biden and for the people of the country, by the way) that you would see on ANY conservative list of policies? Seriously, Dark Branden stumbles and bumbles a lot, but he GOVERNS for the benefit of us all.

Show us Trump's list biyz...and please, no "didn't do this, didn't do that" false equivalents. What POLICY did he accomplish (Muslim Ban? Build the Wall? Ultra conservative SCOTUS?...WHAT?)

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 5:02 pm
Embarrassing? He's stumbled a few times, but I wouldn't call him an embarrassment at all. A hell of a lot less embarrassing than the dumpster fire before him. But I guess he's an embarrassment if you only focus on his few stumbles and not the other things he's done.

Of course the media, especially the right wing, likes to focus on the stumbles and faux scandals. Gets eyeballs while positive stuff doesn't.

Didn't try to overthrow an election

passed the Inflation Reduction Act, the biggest investment in fighting climate change in history

passed the bipartisan infrastructure bill, the largest investment in infrastructure since Eisenhower

passed the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, breaking a 30-year streak of federal inaction on gun violence legislation

signed the CHIPS and Science Act into law

took out the leader of al Qaeda

followed through with ending America's longest war with minimal loss of American lives

reauthorized and strengthened the Violence Against Women Act

signed the PACT Act, a bill to address veteran burn pit exposure

signed the NATO accession protocols for Sweden and Finland

issued executive order to protect reproductive rights

in the process of canceling $10,000 of student loan debt for borrowers making less than $125,000 and canceled $20,000 in debt for Pell Grant recipients

canceled billions in student loan debt for borrowers who were defrauded

nominated now-Supreme Court Associate Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson to replace Justice Breyer

brought COVID under control in the U.S. (e.g., COVID deaths down 90% and over 220 million vaccinated)

formed Monkeypox response team to reach communities at highest risk of contracting the virus

unemployment at a 50-year low

largest one-year deficit reduction in U.S. history (yes there are extenuating circumstances)

limited the release of mercury from coal-burning power plants

$5 billion for electric vehicle chargers- $119 billion budget surplus in January 2022, first in over two years

united world against Russia’s war in Ukraine

ended forced arbitration in workplace sexual assault cases

reinstated California authority to set pollution standards for cars

ended asylum restrictions for children traveling alone

signed the Emmett Till Anti-Lynching Act, the first federal ban on lynching after 200 failed attempts

Initiated “use it or lose it" policy for drilling on public lands to force oil companies to increase production

released 1 million barrels of oil a day for 6 months from strategic reserves to ease gas prices

rescinded Trump-era policy allowing rapid expulsion of migrants

expunged student loan defaults

overhauled USPS finances to allow the agency to modernize its service

required federal dollars spent on infrastructure to use materials made in America

restored environmental reviews for major infrastructure projects

Launched $6 billion effort to save distressed nuclear plants

provided $385 million to help families and individuals with home energy costs through the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program. (This is in addition to $4.5 billion provided in the American Rescue Plan.)

national registry of police officers who are fired for misconduct

tightened restrictions on chokeholds, no-knock warrants, and transfer of military equipment to police departments

required all federal law enforcement officers to wear body cameras

$265 million for South Florida reservoir, key component of Everglades restoration

major wind farm project off West coast to provide electricity for 1.5 million homes

continued Obama administration's practice of posting log records of visitors to White House

devoted $2.1 billion to strengthen US food supply chain

invoked Defense Production Act to rapidly expand domestic production of critical clean energy technologies

enacted two-year pause of anti-circumvention tariffs on solar

allocated funds to federal agencies to counter 300-plus anti-LGBTQ laws by state lawmakers in 2022

relaunched cancer 'moonshot' initiative to help cut death rate

expanded access to emergency contraception and long-acting reversible contraception

prevented states from banning Mifepristone, a medication used to end early pregnancy that has FDA approval

21 executive actions to reduce gun violence

Climate Smart Buildings Initiative: Creates public-private partnerships to modernize Federal buildings to meet agencies’ missions, create good-paying jobs, and cut greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions

Paying for today’s needed renovations with tomorrow’s energy savings without requiring upfront taxpayer funding
ended Trump-era “Remain in Mexico” policy

Operation Fly-Formula, bringing needed baby formula (19 missions to date)

executive order protecting travel for abortion

invested more in crime control and prevention than any president in history

provided death, disability, and education benefits to public safety officers and survivors who are killed or injured in the line of duty

Reunited 500 migrant families separated under Trump

$1.66 billion in grants to transit agencies, territories, and states to invest in 150 bus fleets and facilities

brokered joint US/Mexico infrastructure project; Mexico to pay $1.5 billion for US border security

blocked 4 hospital mergers that would've driven up prices and is poised to thwart more anti-competition consolidation attempts

11 million jobs—more than ever created before at this point of a presidency

record small business creation

banned paywalls on taxpayer-funded research

best economic growth record since Clinton

eliminated civil statute of limitations for child abuse victims

announced $156 million for America's first-of-its-kind critical minerals refinery, demonstrating the commercial viability of turning mine waste into clean energy technology.

But I guess he's fallen off his bike and misspoken a couple of times. Incredible embarassment.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:54 am**

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:45 am You think I'm being partisan, fine. No matter what criticism anyone offers, someone is sure to slap a label on it. Sign of the times and you're entrenched. And sorry my use of progressive doesn't fit your definition.

So...you slap a label on a group, "progressives". And then in the next sentence, mock me for "slapping a label" on something.

Got it.

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:45 am I think anyone who cares, knows what/who I'm referring to. You missed the point, within the Trump context, all libs, Dems, progs, love Biden. It's that simple.

So slap MORE labels...and double down, even though you're dead wrong. Progressives do NOT love Biden. They're mad about Ukraine. They're mad that he left Trump tax cuts in place. They're mad that he's sold out the working class, just like Clinton and Obama before him.

Sorry. you're just wrong.

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:45 am You don't come off as "centered," at least not on fanlax.

That's because on many issues, you're to the right of me. And like all partisans, you think anyone that's one step to the left of you is a liberal, and there's no such thing as the middle.

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:45 am Mocking you? That's revisionist history. As I recall, you were the mocker as some of us optimistically, wanted to see/hoped for, higher GDP #s based on the new admin and their policies.

I'm not revising doodly. You told me to "be patient", and asked how I could possibly know that a massive tax cut wouldn't pay for itself? My response then as it is now is the same: Math. That's how I know.

Guess who was right? We're now blowing more on interest paid on debt than we are on educating our children. Neat. I'm shocked that cutting taxes and increasing Federal spending by over 60% in four years didn't "pay for itself".

Sorry man, but you didn't want to hear 1+1=2. And if you're not a partisan? Where's this "optimism" of yours when it comes to Biden's policies? It's nowhere to be found...replaced, instead, by skepticism that the Infrastructure bill will add infrastructure. This is your idea of centrism?

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 11:14 am**

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:58 am I'm quite certain OS gave you an answer, but at the time, you most likey weren't listening and/or didn't like his reply or were too determined to turn it into a straw man argument or gotcha moment.

I absolutely listened. He gave the same exact answer you gave: don't leave.

That's your idea of a plan to leave Afghanistan. This gives two problems. 1. the average KIA's in Afghanistan over the last 5 years was 16.25 deaths. So here you and OS are killing more troops than Biden does if the math holds. Could be more. Could be less. We don't know. What we DO know is that that number is guaranteed to be zero if we're gone.

And 2. you both failed to accomplish the objective. Namely, getting the F out. So sorry, your plan fails. If we stay, more Americans die every year, and for no reason.

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:58 am Ooofa... I'll be brief here since this has been discussed/argued ad nauseam. MY plan? Ha! I'll just add that the excuse blaming Trump for timeline forcing Biden's folly is total BS. Biden could have changed the timeline in anyway he wished. He was now in driver seat after all.

Yep. He could have. Again, what's the math say will happen to those troops if you leave them there for 12 more months, and Biden works a slow, cautious plan?

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:58 am I also have to agree with those who say, the weakness/stupidity shown with the impulsive/reckless Afghan departure, emboldened Putin to move on Ukraine.

Alright, I'll bite: if this is your idea.....tell me how this math of yours works. What is it that Putin was thinking before Biden pulled us out of Afghanistan?

Was he thinking "boy, that Biden is a tough guy, and if I invade Ukraine, he'll surely send US Troops"??

And then what was he thinking after we left Afghanistan that changed his calculus to invade Ukraine.

I really want to hear this, because this Afghanistan=Ukraine theory has been sold as truth by right wing media for months now, and I want you to explain what you think happened in Putin's mind.

Posted: **Wed Jun 28, 2023 11:22 am**

well, I'm not so sure that "progressives" are as "mad" as you suggest, as even the most "progressive" of the Progressive Caucus recognize the progress under Biden, and the very stark contrast to under Trump.

Biden is a progressive, but he's practical and seeks bi-partisan, hopefully enduring, solutions over the sugar highs of extreme partisan actions.

And they mostly know that.
(Obviously the most extreme activists are in business to be "angry", whether rightfully as may be the case at times or not)

Instead of 'mad' I might suggest "frustrated" as being more appropriate.

Impatience is understandable, patience is hard and not as outwardly rewarded.

And that's what I, as a more traditional mix of conservative/moderate, with some social progressive views, appreciate about Biden's style.

It's not all a rush, not all a campaign, all the time. I think when he "stumbles" is when he himself gets impatient, as his best successes are when he addresses issues that are 60:40 in the country and he gets some bi-partisan crossover...patiently. But they actually happen.

Of course, it's the job of others to bang the drum for their causes more loudly and he understands that, whether left or right of him.

LaxPower Back-Up Stick

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