All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

The EUroburghers can fix this. It's their market area.
Macron & Scholz can go down in history for selling out Ukraine.

https://www.dw.com/en/scholz-macron-say ... a-60549166

Scholz, Macron say diplomacy can fix Ukraine-Russia standoff

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz met with French President Emmanuel Macron in Berlin on Tuesday, with the two leaders welcoming diplomatic efforts to resolve the Ukraine-Russia crisis.

The German and French leaders discussed a coordinated response should Russia move forward with an invasion of Ukraine.

Macron said the two countries are "united" in the need for de-escalation in Ukraine.

Representatives from Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France will meet in Paris tor talks on Wednesday in what's known as the Normandy format, a development which was praised by Scholz.

The French president also said he would hold phone talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday, as part of a "demanding dialogue" with the Kremlin.

Both Germany and France have expressed concerns about additional sanctions against Russia.

Scholz has previously said European states must consider the cost of sanctions towards Russia, and how that could affect their own economies. Germany, for example, is a major importer of Russian gas. Franco-Russian commercial ties plummeted by about a third soon after the annexation of the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea and amid the EU sanctions imposed in response, but they have been recovering steadily since.

Macron has previously said sanctions do little to deter Russia's actions.

France has also called for a European solution to the crisis, such as the aforementioned "Normandy format" talks, instead of relying on the US.

[tech37]

The EUroburghers can fix this. It's their market area.
Macron & Scholz can go down in history for selling out Ukraine.

https://www.dw.com/en/scholz-macron-say ... a-60549166

Scholz, Macron say diplomacy can fix Ukraine-Russia standoff

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz met with French President Emmanuel Macron in Berlin on Tuesday, with the two leaders welcoming diplomatic efforts to resolve the Ukraine-Russia crisis.

The German and French leaders discussed a coordinated response should Russia move forward with an invasion of Ukraine.

Macron said the two countries are "united" in the need for de-escalation in Ukraine.

Representatives from Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France will meet in Paris tor talks on Wednesday in what's known as the Normandy format, a development which was praised by Scholz.

The French president also said he would hold phone talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday, as part of a "demanding dialogue" with the Kremlin.

Both Germany and France have expressed concerns about additional sanctions against Russia.

Scholz has previously said European states must consider the cost of sanctions towards Russia, and how that could affect their own economies. Germany, for example, is a major importer of Russian gas. Franco-Russian commercial ties plummeted by about a third soon after the annexation of the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea and amid the EU sanctions imposed in response, but they have been recovering steadily since.

Macron has previously said sanctions do little to deter Russia's actions.

France has also called for a European solution to the crisis, such as the aforementioned "Normandy format" talks, instead of relying on the US.

"de-escalation in Ukraine"... let's hope

[tech37]

The Neocons' Primary War Tactic: Branding Opponents of U.S. Intervention as Traitors

The Next Act of the Neocons

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-ne ... c-branding

[Kismet]

“We will take America without firing a shot. We do not have to invade the U.S. We will destroy you from within.”
~ Nikita Khrushchev 1956

Better late than never!

[a fan]

If you haven't figured it out yet, Putin is playing the long game.

He's 70. Good luck with that long game, Putin.

You tell us why Putin waited until Trump was out of office to do this. Trump was his puppet, bent on destroying NATO, right ?
Why did Putin wait those 8 years, while we armed & trained Ukraine's military ?
It has nothing to do with your silly red vs blue strawmen team sports.
Putin sees weakness now that he did not see before.

Nope. That's not how it works. YOU have to explain why Putin hasn't invaded Ukraine for 22 years now. What's he waiting for?

Go ahead, lets hear your theory. You screamed from the rooftops that Obama was the weakest, softest, "leading from behind" President we've ever had. Or do you think I've forgotten 8 years of nonstop complaining?

So.....why didn't Putin roll into Ukraine under Obama. I'll wait for your answer.

MAJOR ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES ? How will this be less damaging to Putin economically now than it was in 2014 ?

It's pretty obvious that the EU didn't care about Crimea. It doesn't border NATO nations....so who cares?

Ukraine is plainly different in the world's eyes. I have no clue why you don't understand that there's clearly, obviously, specifically a reason that Putin hasn't invaded Ukraine in the last 22 years. Something is scaring him, or he would already have done it.

My answer is: Duh, it's economic retaliation. Yet YOU mock this idea. So you need to come up with a plausible explanation.

I get queasy just thinking about what this could look like if Putin goes all in & tries to take the entire country.
Putin has to get some kind of return on investment for this enormous military deployment.

I've been trying to tell you for a over a decade that Putin is spinning his wheels with this stupid nonsense. You didn't want to hear it. What the F does Putin need an airbase in Syria for? Helicopter rides for tourists? Putin thinks it's 1960, just like that 70 year old Professor from Harvard, whining about liberalism....a word he made up for kicks.

Ukraine is an economic disaster. Trying to hold Ukraine will give Putin MORE headaches, not fewer.

[Farfromgeneva]

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia- ... ay-2021-10

Who knows what that dude is thinking

[old salt]

YOU have to explain why Putin hasn't invaded Ukraine for 22 years now. What's he waiting for?
No I don't. He has not invaded yet. According to you, he did not invade in 2014.
Using your "logic", so far, he is just conducting military exercises on his own & an ally's territory.

Go ahead, lets hear your theory. You screamed from the rooftops that Obama was the weakest, softest, "leading from behind" President we've ever had. Or do you think I've forgotten 8 years of nonstop complaining?
So what ? This is not Libya or Syria. No one is pushing for Biden

So.....why didn't Putin roll into Ukraine under Obama. I'll wait for your answer.
I already gave the answer -- he rolled into Crimea & the Donbass in 2014.

MAJOR ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES ? How will this be less damaging to Putin economically now than it was in 2014 ?

It's pretty obvious that the EU didn't care about Crimea. It doesn't border NATO nations....so who cares?
Then why did they levy "crippling sanctions", start the Minsk process, & deploy EU/NATO forces to the Baltic States for Operation Resolve, Baltic Air Policing & increased NATO ops in the Black Sea.

Ukraine is plainly different in the world's eyes. I have no clue why you don't understand that there's clearly, obviously, specifically a reason that Putin hasn't invaded Ukraine in the last 22 years. Something is scaring him, or he would already have done it.
My answer is: Duh, it's economic retaliation. Yet YOU mock this idea. So you need to come up with a plausible explanation.
He has endured sanctions since 2014, he has built his reserves, he now is an ally with China, & he now has an energy stranglehold on the EU, which passed up other energy options.

I get queasy just thinking about what this could look like if Putin goes all in & tries to take the entire country.
Putin has to get some kind of return on investment for this enormous military deployment.

I've been trying to tell you for a over a decade that Putin is spinning his wheels with this stupid nonsense. You didn't want to hear it. What the F does Putin need an airbase in Syria for? Helicopter rides for tourists? Putin thinks it's 1960, just like that 70 year old Professor from Harvard, whining about liberalism....a word he made up for kicks.

Ukraine is an economic disaster. Trying to hold Ukraine will give Putin MORE headaches, not fewer.
You said the same thing about Syria, Crimea & the Donbas. The only "headache" it has given Putin is key naval & air bases in the E Med & Black Sea. His Navy is no longer bottled up in the Baltic. This gives him greater reach. His forces now have years of recent combat experience. It has made Russia the most powerful, experienced military presence in Europe.

[a fan]

No I don't. He has not invaded yet. According to you, he did not invade in 2014.

Yes. He didn't invade the Ukraine in 2014.

You are playing games, because you can't tell me why he didn't simply take Ukraine in 2014. You don't have an answer, do you?

[a fan]

You said the same thing about Syria, Crimea & the Donbas. The only "headache" it has given Putin is key naval & air bases in the E Med & Black Sea. His Navy is no longer bottled up in the Baltic. This gives him greater reach. His forces now have years of recent combat experience. It has made Russia the most powerful, experienced military presence in Europe.

Nope. That's NATO.

Yep, he's got those "key bases". He can offer tourists boat rides for a Ruble. Neat.

[jhu72]

Fox to fire Tuckyo Rose and form joint news venture with Kremlin.

[old salt]

No I don't. He has not invaded yet. According to you, he did not invade in 2014.

Yes. He didn't invade the Ukraine in 2014.

You are playing games, because you can't tell me why he didn't simply take Ukraine in 2014. You don't have an answer, do you?

Who knows ? The historians will tell us when the dust settles.
He's much stronger now -- militarily & economically.
In 2014 he was engaged in Syria & preparing to deploy there -- could not have a war with Ukraine at the same time.
He's had forces & little green men in Crimea & E Ukraine for 8 years.
Germany has rejected other energy options, is shutting down their nuc power plants & are committed to Nordtsream 2.
The EU now gets 40 % & Germany 50% of their gas from Russia. The US is no longer a net energy exporter. Gas & oil prices are high.
He's had 8 years to sell his " Mother Russia being surrounded by NATO " propaganda at home, where dissidents are getting noisy. He's had to rescue strongmen allies in Belarus & Kazakstan.
NATO is fractured over our unilateral Afghan withdrawal debacle, lack of consultation & bitterness with the French over the AUKUS sub deal, & Brexit.

[a fan]

No I don't. He has not invaded yet. According to you, he did not invade in 2014.

Yes. He didn't invade the Ukraine in 2014.

You are playing games, because you can't tell me why he didn't simply take Ukraine in 2014. You don't have an answer, do you?

Who knows ? The historians will tell us when the dust settles.

So you don't have an answer, just as I thought. Because there ISN'T a reason why he didn't invade Ukraine at any time over the last 22 years....except that he's afraid of the economic consequences that will surely follow.

So please stop with the Republican nonsense that Biden-----or anyone with a D by their name----- is weak, and that's why Putin might invade now. It's beneath you.

[old salt]

No I don't. He has not invaded yet. According to you, he did not invade in 2014.

Yes. He didn't invade the Ukraine in 2014.

You are playing games, because you can't tell me why he didn't simply take Ukraine in 2014. You don't have an answer, do you?

Who knows ? The historians will tell us when the dust settles.

So you don't have an answer, just as I thought. Because there ISN'T a reason why he didn't invade Ukraine at any time over the last 22 years....except that he's afraid of the economic consequences that will surely follow.
I then gave a list of possible reasons, which you ignore.

So please stop with the Republican nonsense that Biden-----or anyone with a D by their name----- is weak, and that's why Putin might invade now. It's beneath you.Did I say that ? I said Putin senses weakness. I did not limit it to Biden. NATO, collectively & individually does not look strong right now. Do you think Afghanistan made Biden look strong ? His poll ratings are falling. Do you think Putin sees Biden as a strong leader, able to stop him ? Biden removed, up front, any strategic ambiguity by ruling out the threat of US military involvement. He greenlighted "minor incursions" & anything less than an all out invasion, which his flacks had to twice clean up. He threatened sanctions which he can't get our EU allies to impose.

[MDlaxfan76]

Full invasion and/or arial bombing of Kiev will likely generate SWIFT removal...need a few EU allies to agree but don't need Germany and France necessarily. Better if they get onboard, which they might if it's out of their hands anyway. We need to address alternative energy sources, but that's the mechanism for getting it done even if they don't like it.

Under US unilateral control is export of semiconductors made using US software, which most semiconductors around the world use.

[a fan]

Did I say that ? I said Putin senses weakness. I did not limit it to Biden. NATO, collectively & individually does not look strong right now. Do you think Afghanistan made Biden look strong ? His poll ratings are falling. Do you think Putin sees Biden as a strong leader, able to stop him ?

I already told you......Putin isn't an idiot. He knows that no one can stop him from invading a non-NATO country. That's what I'm reacting to....Putin clearly, obviously doesn't care who's in the White House when making his decisions regarding Ukraine. You ALWAYS believe a Dem President is weak. In other news.....water is wet.

Did Afghanistan make Biden look strong? Yes!!!! He made a freaking decision, instead of kicking the can down the road as our last two Presidents did. Doing nothing, and staying in that stupid county for NO REASON was weak sauce. Because Obama and Trump were too scared of what the public thought to actually make a call. That's weak-*ss leadership...the very definition.

Biden removed, up front, any strategic ambiguity by ruling out the threat of US military involvement. He greenlighted "minor incursions" & anything less than an all out invasion, which his flacks had to twice clean up. He threatened sanctions which he can't get our EU allies to impose.

Like Putin didn't already know this? You have to make up your mind on Putin. You keep telling me that he's got it all figured out, and is playing the long game, and is playing chess yada yada yada

If we were going to get involved Militarily? Geez dude....come on......we'd have had transports filled with Marines landing in Ukraine twenty freaking years ago.

Name a person so freaking stupid that they would think the US would EVER send in our troops to go to war AFTER Putin invaded Ukraine.

Come on. No one is that dumb. Putin got the memo DECADES ago that the US won't go to war over Ukraine.

[old salt]

It's Macron's moment to move Europe beyond NATO

[old salt]

USAF F-15's arrive in Estonia
https://twitter.com/NATO_AIRCOM/status/ ... 7488243720

the tail markings are SJ (Seymour Johnson AFB in NC), not LN (Lakenheath, UK), the permanent NATO based F-15's that usually do the NATO Air Policing mission. Next pic shows 6 jets on the ramp.

They're 2 seat F-15E Strike Eagles, capable of air-to-ground attack, not the usual single seat F-15C that are used only for air-to-air which usually do the air policing mission.

[old salt]

Did I say that ? I said Putin senses weakness. I did not limit it to Biden. NATO, collectively & individually does not look strong right now. Do you think Afghanistan made Biden look strong ? His poll ratings are falling. Do you think Putin sees Biden as a strong leader, able to stop him ?

I already told you......Putin isn't an idiot. He knows that no one can stop him from invading a non-NATO country. That's what I'm reacting to....Putin clearly, obviously doesn't care who's in the White House when making his decisions regarding Ukraine. You ALWAYS believe a Dem President is weak. In other news.....water is wet.

Did Afghanistan make Biden look strong? Yes!!!! He made a freaking decision, instead of kicking the can down the road as our last two Presidents did. Doing nothing, and staying in that stupid county for NO REASON was weak sauce. Because Obama and Trump were too scared of what the public thought to actually make a call. That's weak-*ss leadership...the very definition.

Biden removed, up front, any strategic ambiguity by ruling out the threat of US military involvement. He greenlighted "minor incursions" & anything less than an all out invasion, which his flacks had to twice clean up. He threatened sanctions which he can't get our EU allies to impose.

Like Putin didn't already know this? You have to make up your mind on Putin. You keep telling me that he's got it all figured out, and is playing the long game, and is playing chess yada yada yada

If we were going to get involved Militarily? Geez dude....come on......we'd have had transports filled with Marines landing in Ukraine twenty freaking years ago.

Name a person so freaking stupid that they would think the US would EVER send in our troops to go to war AFTER Putin invaded Ukraine.

Come on. No one is that dumb. Putin got the memo DECADES ago that the US won't go to war over Ukraine.

... Biden's a tower of strength. A 21st century Churchill. The rest of NATO didn't get the memo on Afghanistan.

[a fan]

... Biden's a tower of strength. A 21st century Churchill.

Dems are bad. I got your memo on the subject years ago. Don't worry. Your man Trump will be back in office in a few years, and you can start pretending like his foreign policy is flawless again.

What part of your "this is the EU's problem" did you forget about today? Your hatred of the little D by BIden's name doesn't enter the picture.

[old salt]

... Biden's a tower of strength. A 21st century Churchill.

Dems are bad. I got your memo on the subject years ago. Don't worry. Your man Trump will be back in office in a few years, and you can start pretending like his foreign policy is flawless again.

What part of your "this is the EU's problem" did you forget about today? Your hatred of the little D by BIden's name doesn't enter the picture.

Biden won't let it be the EU's problem. He's sending F-15E Strike Eagles to Lithuania. I wonder which Airborne Brigade is in the 8.500 additional troops we're sending.

Just stop it. I was not criticizing Biden until you started with your perverted "history" & stupid team rap again.
I said I hope Biden helps prevent an invasion or massive bloodletting. I'll give him credit if he does.
You trivialize a serious issue with your team rap. I give up trying to have a serious discussion with you on this.
It's a waste of time & effort.