JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[calourie]

The impeachment proceedings vis a vis the transcripts so far publicized look like they will put republican senators in the uncomfortable position of having to approve of a pro-Russian foreign policy. That is about the only way to justify Trumps' associates actions toward the Ukraine from a national security standpoint. Only if a pro-russian stance isn't a security problem is there no security risk for the US inherent in the Trump White House's mind boggling activity in this Ukrainian cluster-fk. This should be able to be succinctly laid out once the hearings begin. My guess is that that the US voting public will be able to digest this news far more easily than the Mueller investigation, and I suspect the result will be republican senators will be scrambling for sounder footing regarding the matters at hand than they have managed so far.

[DocBarrister]

The fact that you focus on Ukrainian corruption while ignoring the filthy, immoral, and murderous detritus of Russia only reflects your truly distorted, delusional perspective on the world, Old Salt.

DocBarrister

How about, it's not our fight & none of our business.
Go play with your reset button.

On a related note, Macron declares NATO brain dead without US leadership :

It’s our fight if Russia interferes with our elections and invades a sovereign nation in Europe.

And Ukraine is definitely OUR BUSINESS ... that nation shares a border with no fewer than four NATO allies: Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. That’s why no president should screw around with the military security of Ukraine in order to extort the Ukrainian government for their own political benefit.

All of the corrupt, reckless, and moronic things Donald Trump has done doesn’t seem to bother you. But you criticize Hillary Clinton’s good faith attempt at a diplomatic reset with Russia?!?

Your hypocrisy truly is astounding.

DocBarrister

Perhaps our self-admitted brain dead NATO allies could join us in doing something about this :
https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... to-forces/

Criticizing NATO allies (again) ... just what a Russian mole would do.

DocBarrister

I'm welcoming our NATO allies to join us on the E front. We're all in for the Poles & the Balts.
NATO's largest & wealthiest EU member remains worfully unprepared.
Criticism of NATO laggards is still warranted.
Your sudden hawkishness against Russia smells of political opportunism.
Have you found your souvenir reset button yet ?

You do understand that there is something very wrong with someone’s perspective when they criticize Hillary Clinton and U.S. allies more than Vladimir Putin and his murderous regime?

In fact, it’s difficult to recall any criticism from you against Putin and his crime lords. You have never explained that. Never ....

DocBarrister

Putin's malevolence is a given in every discussion. Selectively whining about it, only when you find it a politically advantageous talking point, then questioning the patriotism of anyone who doesn't join you, demonstrates how phoney you are. I don't recall you coming to Mitt's defense when Obama mocked him for naming Russia as our most dangerous adversary, or questioning Clinton's patriotism when she politically opportunistically offered Putin a reset button, emboldening him to move into Syria, Crimea & the Donbass.

I offer my opinions as to what motivates Putin & (more importantly) the Russian people & my ideas on how best to contain & deter Putin, while peacefully coexisting with Russia, until Putin passes from the scene, without alienating the Russian people to the point of permanent enmity.

The Cold War was a tremendous victory for the US, NATO & democracy. I don't want to see us fritter it away, for partisan political advantage.
Our slide backward toward Cold War levels of confrontation is alarming, dangerous & tremendously wasteful. Especially when our NATO allies are not willing to join us in our politically motivated escalation. Russia is not (yet) an existential threat to the US, but we're motivating them to become one with a foreign policy that is being used for domestic political score settling.

And your approach to not frittering away our Cold War victory over Russia is to support a president who practically kneels before Putin every time he seems him?

Is that a joke?!?

DocBarrister

[old salt]

The impeachment proceedings vis a vis the transcripts so far publicized look like they will put republican senators in the uncomfortable position of having to approve of a pro-Russian foreign policy. That is about the only way to justify Trumps' associates actions toward the Ukraine from a national security standpoint. Only if a pro-russian stance isn't a security problem is there no security risk for the US inherent in the Trump White House's mind boggling activity in this Ukrainian cluster-fk. This should be able to be succinctly laid out once the hearings begin. My guess is that that the US voting public will be able to digest this news far more easily than the Mueller investigation, and I suspect the result will be republican senators will be scrambling for sounder footing regarding the matters at hand than they have managed so far.

It's easy to make the factual case that Trump has been much more supportive of Ukraine,
& more supportive of NATO vs Russia, than his predecessor was.

[calourie]

The impeachment proceedings vis a vis the transcripts so far publicized look like they will put republican senators in the uncomfortable position of having to approve of a pro-Russian foreign policy. That is about the only way to justify Trumps' associates actions toward the Ukraine from a national security standpoint. Only if a pro-russian stance isn't a security problem is there no security risk for the US inherent in the Trump White House's mind boggling activity in this Ukrainian cluster-fk. This should be able to be succinctly laid out once the hearings begin. My guess is that that the US voting public will be able to digest this news far more easily than the Mueller investigation, and I suspect the result will be republican senators will be scrambling for sounder footing regarding the matters at hand than they have managed so far.

It's easy to make the factual case that Trump has been much more supportive of Ukraine,
& more supportive of NATO vs Russia, than his predecessor was.

That isn't the matter at hand, otherwise known as a red herring.

[old salt]

The fact that you focus on Ukrainian corruption while ignoring the filthy, immoral, and murderous detritus of Russia only reflects your truly distorted, delusional perspective on the world, Old Salt.

DocBarrister

How about, it's not our fight & none of our business.
Go play with your reset button.

On a related note, Macron declares NATO brain dead without US leadership :

It’s our fight if Russia interferes with our elections and invades a sovereign nation in Europe.

And Ukraine is definitely OUR BUSINESS ... that nation shares a border with no fewer than four NATO allies: Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. That’s why no president should screw around with the military security of Ukraine in order to extort the Ukrainian government for their own political benefit.

All of the corrupt, reckless, and moronic things Donald Trump has done doesn’t seem to bother you. But you criticize Hillary Clinton’s good faith attempt at a diplomatic reset with Russia?!?

Your hypocrisy truly is astounding.

DocBarrister

Perhaps our self-admitted brain dead NATO allies could join us in doing something about this :
https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... to-forces/

Criticizing NATO allies (again) ... just what a Russian mole would do.

DocBarrister

I'm welcoming our NATO allies to join us on the E front. We're all in for the Poles & the Balts.
NATO's largest & wealthiest EU member remains worfully unprepared.
Criticism of NATO laggards is still warranted.
Your sudden hawkishness against Russia smells of political opportunism.
Have you found your souvenir reset button yet ?

You do understand that there is something very wrong with someone’s perspective when they criticize Hillary Clinton and U.S. allies more than Vladimir Putin and his murderous regime?

In fact, it’s difficult to recall any criticism from you against Putin and his crime lords. You have never explained that. Never ....

DocBarrister

Putin's malevolence is a given in every discussion. Selectively whining about it, only when you find it a politically advantageous talking point, then questioning the patriotism of anyone who doesn't join you, demonstrates how phoney you are. I don't recall you coming to Mitt's defense when Obama mocked him for naming Russia as our most dangerous adversary, or questioning Clinton's patriotism when she politically opportunistically offered Putin a reset button, emboldening him to move into Syria, Crimea & the Donbass.

I offer my opinions as to what motivates Putin & (more importantly) the Russian people & my ideas on how best to contain & deter Putin, while peacefully coexisting with Russia, until Putin passes from the scene, without alienating the Russian people to the point of permanent enmity.

The Cold War was a tremendous victory for the US, NATO & democracy. I don't want to see us fritter it away, for partisan political advantage.
Our slide backward toward Cold War levels of confrontation is alarming, dangerous & tremendously wasteful. Especially when our NATO allies are not willing to join us in our politically motivated escalation. Russia is not (yet) an existential threat to the US, but we're motivating them to become one with a foreign policy that is being used for domestic political score settling.

And your approach to not frittering away our Cold War victory over Russia is to support a president who practically kneels before Putin every time he seems him?

Is that a joke?!?

DocBarrister

Kneels before Putin ? By deploying much more combat power to NATO's E front than his predecessor & the rest of NATO combined ?
Or by launching airstrikes on a Syrian airbase manned by Russian troops or killing 200 Russian mercenaries along the Euphrates ?
By extending the Magnitsky sanctions when the EU won't even vote on them ?

[calourie]

The impeachment proceedings vis a vis the transcripts so far publicized look like they will put republican senators in the uncomfortable position of having to approve of a pro-Russian foreign policy. That is about the only way to justify Trumps' associates actions toward the Ukraine from a national security standpoint. Only if a pro-russian stance isn't a security problem is there no security risk for the US inherent in the Trump White House's mind boggling activity in this Ukrainian cluster-fk. This should be able to be succinctly laid out once the hearings begin. My guess is that that the US voting public will be able to digest this news far more easily than the Mueller investigation, and I suspect the result will be republican senators will be scrambling for sounder footing regarding the matters at hand than they have managed so far.

It's easy to make the factual case that Trump has been much more supportive of Ukraine,
& more supportive of NATO vs Russia, than his predecessor was.

Comparing Obama's relationship toward Ukriane to Trump's pretty clearly isn't the issue at hand. As far as addressing whether Trump personally has been more supportive of Nato vs. Russia than his predecessor was would likely project into a case in which we won't find a lot of common ground so I'll take a pass on rehashing that one.

[seacoaster]

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/ ... 1943620608

[old salt]

The impeachment proceedings vis a vis the transcripts so far publicized look like they will put republican senators in the uncomfortable position of having to approve of a pro-Russian foreign policy. That is about the only way to justify Trumps' associates actions toward the Ukraine from a national security standpoint. Only if a pro-russian stance isn't a security problem is there no security risk for the US inherent in the Trump White House's mind boggling activity in this Ukrainian cluster-fk. This should be able to be succinctly laid out once the hearings begin. My guess is that that the US voting public will be able to digest this news far more easily than the Mueller investigation, and I suspect the result will be republican senators will be scrambling for sounder footing regarding the matters at hand than they have managed so far.

It's easy to make the factual case that Trump has been much more supportive of Ukraine,
& more supportive of NATO vs Russia, than his predecessor was.

Comparing Obama's relationship toward Ukriane to Trump's pretty clearly isn't the issue at hand.

Agree. It serves as the baseline for comparison of our tangible support for Ukraine, post Crimea.
It will be very hard to make the case that Trump harmed Ukraine & helped Russia.
150 Javelins, with more in the way, is a significant chip.

[calourie]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

It is more likely that the Ukrainians thought it was not going to happen. That is good enough....similar to an announcement of an investigation being enough to inflict damage.... like reopening the investigation into Hillary's emails. Nothing there but damage done. Old Salt isn't as stupid as he appears.

[MDlaxfan76]

The impeachment proceedings vis a vis the transcripts so far publicized look like they will put republican senators in the uncomfortable position of having to approve of a pro-Russian foreign policy. That is about the only way to justify Trumps' associates actions toward the Ukraine from a national security standpoint. Only if a pro-russian stance isn't a security problem is there no security risk for the US inherent in the Trump White House's mind boggling activity in this Ukrainian cluster-fk. This should be able to be succinctly laid out once the hearings begin. My guess is that that the US voting public will be able to digest this news far more easily than the Mueller investigation, and I suspect the result will be republican senators will be scrambling for sounder footing regarding the matters at hand than they have managed so far.

It's easy to make the factual case that Trump has been much more supportive of Ukraine,
& more supportive of NATO vs Russia, than his predecessor was.

That isn't the matter at hand, otherwise known as a red herring.

Certainly a red herring, look at the past 25 years of consistent policy towards Russia.
Lots of wishful thinking by each Admin, ending in Crimea.

Salty is far more worried about new Cold War than any sort of allegiance with Europe or any other allies.
At least that's what he says in his posts, again and again.
Europeans 'baaaad', Cold War worse.

[MDlaxfan76]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

It is more likely that the Ukrainians thought it was not going to happen. That is good enough....similar to an announcement of an investigation being enough to inflict damage.... like reopening the investigation into Hillary's emails. Nothing there but damage done. Old Salt isn't as stupid as he appears.

Nope, he's not.

[MDlaxfan76]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

Well, not without them caving and digging up false dirt.
Step one was to announce the 'investigations'...but to keep anything coming, he'd have needed to provide the 'deliverable' .

[old salt]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

It is more likely that the Ukrainians thought it was not going to happen. That is good enough....similar to an announcement of an investigation being enough to inflict damage.... like reopening the investigation into Hillary's emails. Nothing there but damage done. Old Salt isn't as stupid as he appears.

Nope, he's not.

It was ALWAYS going to happen. The funds had to be authorized or lost by 30 Sept.
(R) Senators weren't going to let that happen.
A quiet ph call from Rob Portman nudged Trump off the dime.
The aid was released before the WB complaint was leaked.

[MDlaxfan76]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

It is more likely that the Ukrainians thought it was not going to happen. That is good enough....similar to an announcement of an investigation being enough to inflict damage.... like reopening the investigation into Hillary's emails. Nothing there but damage done. Old Salt isn't as stupid as he appears.

Nope, he's not.

It was ALWAYS going to happen. The funds had to be authorized or lost by 30 Sept.
(R) Senators weren't going to let that happen.
A quiet ph call from Rob Portman nudged Trump off the dime.
The aid was released before the WB complaint was leaked.

ahhhh, now it was the R Senators who came riding to the rescue , not the panic over the WB...which the WH knew was coming public any moment, despite their efforts to quash it, delay it...

sure...

[Typical Lax Dad]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

It is more likely that the Ukrainians thought it was not going to happen. That is good enough....similar to an announcement of an investigation being enough to inflict damage.... like reopening the investigation into Hillary's emails. Nothing there but damage done. Old Salt isn't as stupid as he appears.

Nope, he's not.

It was ALWAYS going to happen. The funds had to be authorized or lost by 30 Sept.
(R) Senators weren't going to let that happen.
A quiet ph call from Rob Portman nudged Trump off the dime.
The aid was released before the WB complaint was leaked.

There is no bottom.

[old salt]

The impeachment proceedings vis a vis the transcripts so far publicized look like they will put republican senators in the uncomfortable position of having to approve of a pro-Russian foreign policy. That is about the only way to justify Trumps' associates actions toward the Ukraine from a national security standpoint. Only if a pro-russian stance isn't a security problem is there no security risk for the US inherent in the Trump White House's mind boggling activity in this Ukrainian cluster-fk. This should be able to be succinctly laid out once the hearings begin. My guess is that that the US voting public will be able to digest this news far more easily than the Mueller investigation, and I suspect the result will be republican senators will be scrambling for sounder footing regarding the matters at hand than they have managed so far.

It's easy to make the factual case that Trump has been much more supportive of Ukraine,
& more supportive of NATO vs Russia, than his predecessor was.

That isn't the matter at hand, otherwise known as a red herring.

Certainly a red herring, look at the past 25 years of consistent policy towards Russia.
Lots of wishful thinking by each Admin, ending in Crimea.

Salty is far more worried about new Cold War than any sort of allegiance with Europe or any other allies.
At least that's what he says in his posts, again and again.
Europeans 'baaaad', Cold War worse.

I don't think we should get out ahead of our NATO allies re. Russia.
I'm all for doing our "fair share", so long as the EUros step up & shoulder their share of the burden,
as the Brits (big nation) & Danes (small nation) are doing.
Germany's lethargic pacifism is a bigger threat to NATO's survival than Putin, Trump, or Erdogan.
I was part of NATO at it's greatest. Let's make NATO great again.

On a related note -- why are we becoming increasingly isolationist ? Let's find out :
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/1 ... e_today_nl

[njbill]

The aid was released before the WB complaint was leaked.

Yes, but weeks after the complaint was filed and the White House learned about it.

[old salt]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

It is more likely that the Ukrainians thought it was not going to happen. That is good enough....similar to an announcement of an investigation being enough to inflict damage.... like reopening the investigation into Hillary's emails. Nothing there but damage done. Old Salt isn't as stupid as he appears.

Nope, he's not.

It was ALWAYS going to happen. The funds had to be authorized or lost by 30 Sept.
(R) Senators weren't going to let that happen.
A quiet ph call from Rob Portman nudged Trump off the dime.
The aid was released before the WB complaint was leaked.

There is no bottom.

WB or not, there's no way Trump was going to buck the (R) Senators on this.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Seemingly was not going to happen without a whistlebower.

It is more likely that the Ukrainians thought it was not going to happen. That is good enough....similar to an announcement of an investigation being enough to inflict damage.... like reopening the investigation into Hillary's emails. Nothing there but damage done. Old Salt isn't as stupid as he appears.

Nope, he's not.

It was ALWAYS going to happen. The funds had to be authorized or lost by 30 Sept.
(R) Senators weren't going to let that happen.
A quiet ph call from Rob Portman nudged Trump off the dime.
The aid was released before the WB complaint was leaked.

There is no bottom.

WB or not, there's no way Trump was going to buck the (R) Senators on this.

You speaking for him or is that your opinion? “No way” is pretty definitive. When did you speak to him?