SCOTUS

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cradleandshoot
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

CU77 wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:01 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:56 pmIMO as a nation we should to every length to counsel these young women and give them every possible option to bring their baby into this world.
Fine, as long as we leave the final decision up to them.

I'd like to see some specific proposals as to how this would work (in a way that's not happening now).
I have never been in favor and never will be in favor of denying any women their right to terminate a pregnancy. I will also never sit by the side twiddling my thumbs and say that I am okay with it. The majority opinion here seems to be telling me to shut up and that my opinion means nothing. I know i am peeing in the wind in this discussion. These procedures may be legal and sometimes medically necessary. When they are done strictly out of convenience then something is really screwed up in our society that almost no one will say any thing against it. You don't even have to speak out against abortions. Why is it so many folks act like they just don't give a chit one way or the other? If you see a kid in a cage on the southern border, then all holy hell breaks loose. :roll:
Last edited by cradleandshoot on Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:34 pm
seacoaster wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:25 pm
njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:56 pm Sorry, just sick and tired of listening to you on this issue.

You have no right — ZERO — to tell some woman you don’t even know what to do.

If you disagree, Mr. tough guy, why don’t you pay each woman who has a baby she doesn’t want $1 million to care for it?

Otherwise, STFU.
Yep; +1
So let me get this straight. You are pro abortion because, well, kids are expensive?
I can actually understand the argument of someone wanting an abortion because or rape, incest, or having their own life in jeopardy.
But abortion due to "expense" and "inconvenience" is about as selfish as it gets. There is a thing called adoption.
+1
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by njbill »

Cradle, your blood and guts argument is meaningless to me. It has zero persuasive force.

I am pro-choice. It is the right of a woman who becomes pregnant to decide for herself what to do with the pregnancy.

You have NO say in that. It is none of your business. Butt out.

If you get a woman pregnant, I have no problem if you and the woman decide to have the baby. Or to terminate the pregnancy. That’s your decision, not mine.

I have no problem with you being anti-choice in general.

Where I draw the line is when you use words like “baby” and “murder.” That is disgusting. Fetuses aren’t babies. Abortions aren’t murder. You know that, but continue on and on spewing this revolting nonsense. I have read crap like this from you and your ilk for a long time. Enough.

Mind you own f’ing business. Or do you want me to make decisions that impact your life, Mr. Big Talk. I don’t think so.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:16 pm Cradle, your blood and guts argument is meaningless to me. It has zero persuasive force.

I am pro-choice. It is the right of a woman who becomes pregnant to decide for herself what to do with the pregnancy.

You have NO say in that. It is none of your business. Butt out.

If you get a woman pregnant, I have no problem if you and the woman decide to have the baby. Or to terminate the pregnancy. That’s your decision, not mine.

I have no problem with you being anti-choice in general.

Where I draw the line is when you use words like “baby” and “murder.” That is disgusting. Fetuses aren’t babies. Abortions aren’t murder. You know that, but continue on and on spewing this revolting nonsense. I have read dump like this from you and your ilk for a long time. Enough.

Mind you own f’ing business. Or do you want me to make decisions that impact your life, Mr. Big Talk. I don’t think so.
Thank you counselor, I have my opinion and you have yours. i really don't give a flying fig about what your opinion is and i know you feel the same. You never did answer a simple question... Have you ever witnessed an evacuation procedure up close and personal? It is not that tough of a question for a distinguished lawyer such as yourself to answer.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by njbill »

kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:34 pm So let me get this straight. You are pro abortion because, well, kids are expensive?
I can actually understand the argument of someone wanting an abortion because or rape, incest, or having their own life in jeopardy.
But abortion due to "expense" and "inconvenience" is about as selfish as it gets. There is a thing called adoption.
I’m not pro-abortion. I’m pro-choice.

I used expense as an example of why a woman may decide to have an abortion. You may think that is selfish, but it’s not your life or your decision.

Are you really in the business of making judgments of this nature about people you don’t even know who are in circumstances you are completely unfamiliar with?

Adoption is also an option. But it is the woman’s decision as to whether to terminate an unwanted pregnancy or give the child up for adoption. Not yours, not mine.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by njbill »

cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:26 pm
njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:16 pm Cradle, your blood and guts argument is meaningless to me. It has zero persuasive force.

I am pro-choice. It is the right of a woman who becomes pregnant to decide for herself what to do with the pregnancy.

You have NO say in that. It is none of your business. Butt out.

If you get a woman pregnant, I have no problem if you and the woman decide to have the baby. Or to terminate the pregnancy. That’s your decision, not mine.

I have no problem with you being anti-choice in general.

Where I draw the line is when you use words like “baby” and “murder.” That is disgusting. Fetuses aren’t babies. Abortions aren’t murder. You know that, but continue on and on spewing this revolting nonsense. I have read dump like this from you and your ilk for a long time. Enough.

Mind you own f’ing business. Or do you want me to make decisions that impact your life, Mr. Big Talk. I don’t think so.
Thank you counselor, I have my opinion and you have yours. i really don't give a flying fig about what your opinion is and i know you feel the same. You never did answer a simple question... Have you ever witnessed an evacuation procedure up close and personal? It is not that tough of a question for a distinguished lawyer such as yourself to answer.
Nope. Nor have you.

Have you ever carried a baby to term? Have you ever given birth? Didn’t think so.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:16 pm Cradle, your blood and guts argument is meaningless to me. It has zero persuasive force.

I am pro-choice. It is the right of a woman who becomes pregnant to decide for herself what to do with the pregnancy.

You have NO say in that. It is none of your business. Butt out.

If you get a woman pregnant, I have no problem if you and the woman decide to have the baby. Or to terminate the pregnancy. That’s your decision, not mine.

I have no problem with you being anti-choice in general.

Where I draw the line is when you use words like “baby” and “murder.” That is disgusting. Fetuses aren’t babies. Abortions aren’t murder. You know that, but continue on and on spewing this revolting nonsense. I have read dump like this from you and your ilk for a long time. Enough.

Mind you own f’ing business. Or do you want me to make decisions that impact your life, Mr. Big Talk. I don’t think so.
" Fetuses aren’t babies."

I am not a Catholic anymore but i know there are probably around a billion of practicing Catholics that believe life begins at conception. Take your argument to the pope even Pope Francis would probably disagree with you.
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ggait
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by ggait »

Abortion is legal in Russia.

C&S will have to move to Nicaragua or the Dominican Republic, the two largest countries where abortion is strictly illegal.
Or maybe Ireland?

Pretty much the entire developed world (rightly or wrongly) has long since decided that abortion should be legal in many/most cases. The USA in no way is out of spec on this issue.

The only reason why this issue generates political heat in the USA is because of the legal basis for the policy (i.e judicial fiat over-riding legislative enactment). But if the judicial fiat ever went away, abortion would always remain legal in most places.

So why all the shouting at clouds? Go donate money to or volunteer at a non-profit that supports adoption or (even better) contraception.

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/defaul ... able_1.pdf
Boycott stupid. Country over party.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:29 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:26 pm
njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:16 pm Cradle, your blood and guts argument is meaningless to me. It has zero persuasive force.

I am pro-choice. It is the right of a woman who becomes pregnant to decide for herself what to do with the pregnancy.

You have NO say in that. It is none of your business. Butt out.

If you get a woman pregnant, I have no problem if you and the woman decide to have the baby. Or to terminate the pregnancy. That’s your decision, not mine.

I have no problem with you being anti-choice in general.

Where I draw the line is when you use words like “baby” and “murder.” That is disgusting. Fetuses aren’t babies. Abortions aren’t murder. You know that, but continue on and on spewing this revolting nonsense. I have read dump like this from you and your ilk for a long time. Enough.

Mind you own f’ing business. Or do you want me to make decisions that impact your life, Mr. Big Talk. I don’t think so.
Thank you counselor, I have my opinion and you have yours. i really don't give a flying fig about what your opinion is and i know you feel the same. You never did answer a simple question... Have you ever witnessed an evacuation procedure up close and personal? It is not that tough of a question for a distinguished lawyer such as yourself to answer.
Nope. Nor have you.

Have you ever carried a baby to term? Have you ever given birth? Didn’t think so.
The pain felt here conversing with deranged FLP people has to be the equivalent of giving birth. No i have never carried a baby to term. i was in the delivery room when both my sons were born. My wife as a young nurse had to assist in many procedures. Afterwards she held their hands as some had the equivalent of a nervous breakdown. One young lady even took her life a few days after her "procedure". So easy for you to judge never having seen the devastation caused to so many women. Maybe you should get some blood on your wingtips and volunteer your time at Planned Parenthood. Your kindness and compassion towards these traumatized women in their time of need would be greatly appreciated. No matter what they are going through you could give them a pat on the back and reassure them they did the right thing. :roll:
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by RedFromMI »

Back to the Kavanaugh nonsense:

Twitter thread from Tierney Sneed, of TalkingPointsMemo:
Kavanaugh's concurrence in the Wisconsin case is sloppy AF.

(A thread.)

Merrill II is a weird citation here, as the Supreme Court intervened to allow a state election official to unilaterally implement a voter restriction — a ban on curbside voting — that was ~no where~ in the state’s code.
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Wrong! Vermont has made a major change: it’s mailing everyone a ballot! There’s almost no risk of someone receiving a ballot when it’s too late to mail it in, as is the case in Wisconsin.
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This analogy makes no sense. The WI deadline is receipt deadline, not a submission deadline. The in-person voting equivalent is if someone showed up at their polling place before it officially closed but — due to long lines — didn’t get to cast their ballot until after midnight.
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This quote is in the context of an argument for moving ~several~ dates up in the timeline – request dates, dates to begin processing — not just the receipt deadline. WI hasn’t moved up those other dates, and its request and processing timelines among the latest in the country.
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Again, it’s hard to argue that an election day receipt deadline is justified for the purposes of turning around quick results when Wisconsin’s legislature has resisted calls to its tweak processing timelines in a way that will deliver quick results.
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In Bush v Palm Beach County Canvassing Bd., the court said that it was “declin[ing]” to review the very question Kavanaugh is queuing up. https://t.co/PQHG1f9iR1
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Another analogy that makes no sense! The IRS April 15 deadline is a submission deadline, not a receipt deadline.
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There is actually a widespread fear that voters will assume mail moves quickly enough to match the request deadlines. That’s why USPS sent all those states those letters telling them they should change their deadlines!
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Again, Kavanaugh is conflating a receipt deadline with a submission deadline.
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This back up plan really isn't a good failsafe.
1. it assumes voters will actually be able to get in touch w/election officials to tell them they want to spoil the mail ballots already in the mail on their way back to elections offices
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2. In other states, like PA, the voter in the scenario Kavanaugh describes will have to vote provisionally... which will further delay the process of tabulating the results
One final gripe: this is a very rich way to describe how the shadow docket has operated during the pandemic. Only occasionally have the justices explained why they voted to put on hold lower court orders making voting easier and not always as part of majority/per curium opinion
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

ggait wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:34 pm
Abortion is legal in Russia.

C&S will have to move to Nicaragua or the Dominican Republic, the two largest countries where abortion is strictly illegal.
Or maybe Ireland?

Pretty much the entire developed world (rightly or wrongly) has long since decided that abortion should be legal in many/most cases. The USA in no way is out of spec on this issue.

The only reason why this issue generates political heat in the USA is because of the legal basis for the policy (i.e judicial fiat over-riding legislative enactment). But if the judicial fiat ever went away, abortion would always remain legal in most places.

So why all the shouting at clouds? Go donate money to or volunteer at a non-profit that supports adoption or (even better) contraception.

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/defaul ... able_1.pdf
I don't give a chit what kind of political heat it generates counselor. I will take the time to repeat my position for you. I do not and will not ever advocate denying any women to their constitutional legal right to have an abortion... is that CLEAR enough for you? The flip side of that is that i will never sit here on the side lines twiddling my thumbs and not express my opinion on the barbarity of abortion. It is rather odd that abortions are unique in our country. They are the only medical procedure in the USA where the stated objective of the procedure dictates that someone die for the procedure to be a success. Pretty cool ehhhh.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by kramerica.inc »

njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:28 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:34 pm So let me get this straight. You are pro abortion because, well, kids are expensive?
I can actually understand the argument of someone wanting an abortion because or rape, incest, or having their own life in jeopardy.
But abortion due to "expense" and "inconvenience" is about as selfish as it gets. There is a thing called adoption.
I’m not pro-abortion. I’m pro-choice.

I used expense as an example of why a woman may decide to have an abortion. You may think that is selfish, but it’s not your life or your decision.

Are you really in the business of making judgments of this nature about people you don’t even know who are in circumstances you are completely unfamiliar with?

Adoption is also an option. But it is the woman’s decision as to whether to terminate an unwanted pregnancy or give the child up for adoption. Not yours, not mine.
Gotcha. You ARE a lawyer so you need to parce words and to make it acceptable in your brain. I get it. Because the reality isn't pretty. The posturing and mind bending is quite fascinating.

RVW is holding on by a thread. Civil law says you've got little ground to stand on. (Ignoring the Unborn Victim of Violence Act).

And Natural law shows you're most certainly wrong. You've obviously never seen an abortion up close and personal OR known a woman who has had one, or lost a pregnancy.

But yeah, when in doubt, forget adoption. That's too "messy."

:roll:
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by ggait »

Ironic that in 2000 the Bush legal team (which included CJ Roberts, Beer Kavanaugh and Justice Dogma) argued (pretty successfully) that late arriving ballots without postmarks should be counted since it was thought that those would favor Bush.

Even though the clear rule in FL had been that you needed a post-mark so you could determine if the vote had been cast by election day.
Boycott stupid. Country over party.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by a fan »

kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:08 pm
njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:28 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:34 pm So let me get this straight. You are pro abortion because, well, kids are expensive?
I can actually understand the argument of someone wanting an abortion because or rape, incest, or having their own life in jeopardy.
But abortion due to "expense" and "inconvenience" is about as selfish as it gets. There is a thing called adoption.
I’m not pro-abortion. I’m pro-choice.

I used expense as an example of why a woman may decide to have an abortion. You may think that is selfish, but it’s not your life or your decision.

Are you really in the business of making judgments of this nature about people you don’t even know who are in circumstances you are completely unfamiliar with?

Adoption is also an option. But it is the woman’s decision as to whether to terminate an unwanted pregnancy or give the child up for adoption. Not yours, not mine.
Gotcha. You ARE a lawyer so you need to parce words and to make it acceptable in your brain. I get it. Because the reality isn't pretty. The posturing and mind bending is quite fascinating.

RVW is holding on by a thread. Civil law says you've got little ground to stand on. (Ignoring the Unborn Victim of Violence Act).

And Natural law shows you're most certainly wrong. You've obviously never seen an abortion up close and personal OR known a woman who has had one, or lost a pregnancy.
Still don't get it: if anti-abortion folks are really upset about this stuff......why the F aren't all of you working with libs, and throwing money at preventing unwanted pregnancies? You could almost eliminate it....free condoms and b control, sex ed, etc.

Not only is your team not doing that---you're actively preventing programs like this from happening. We had it on a State level in Colorado...and teen pregnancy fell of a cliff. What did your team do? They shut it down.

And I've yet to hear anyone on your team explain why. I don't get it.....
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by ggait »

https://www.vox.com/2014/7/7/5877505/co ... th-control

CS -- is this something you'd support? Cut teen abortions in CO by 42%.

But to avoid those abortions, you have to spend public money to give free to frisky teen girls. Who don't have to tell their parents that they are getting contraception and having sex.

Seems like something that pro-lifers would like. But that wasn't the case out here in CO.

Honest question.
Boycott stupid. Country over party.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

ggait wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:36 pm https://www.vox.com/2014/7/7/5877505/co ... th-control

CS -- is this something you'd support? Cut teen abortions in CO by 42%.

But to avoid those abortions, you have to spend public money to give free to frisky teen girls. Who don't have to tell their parents that they are getting contraception and having sex.

Seems like something that pro-lifers would like. But that wasn't the case out here in CO.

Honest question.
I am in favor of all contraception. It seems common sense to me. i understand the apprehension of parents. Condoms are very effective birth control but they are not foolproof. If you can cut unwanted teen pregnancy 42% that is a big deal and a big win. It does not address the question of young teenage girls having sex. That is an issue for the parents to deal with. i would rather my kid use a condom than take a shot in the dark and lose.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by kramerica.inc »

a fan wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:19 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:08 pm
njbill wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:28 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:34 pm So let me get this straight. You are pro abortion because, well, kids are expensive?
I can actually understand the argument of someone wanting an abortion because or rape, incest, or having their own life in jeopardy.
But abortion due to "expense" and "inconvenience" is about as selfish as it gets. There is a thing called adoption.
I’m not pro-abortion. I’m pro-choice.

I used expense as an example of why a woman may decide to have an abortion. You may think that is selfish, but it’s not your life or your decision.

Are you really in the business of making judgments of this nature about people you don’t even know who are in circumstances you are completely unfamiliar with?

Adoption is also an option. But it is the woman’s decision as to whether to terminate an unwanted pregnancy or give the child up for adoption. Not yours, not mine.
Gotcha. You ARE a lawyer so you need to parce words and to make it acceptable in your brain. I get it. Because the reality isn't pretty. The posturing and mind bending is quite fascinating.

RVW is holding on by a thread. Civil law says you've got little ground to stand on. (Ignoring the Unborn Victim of Violence Act).

And Natural law shows you're most certainly wrong. You've obviously never seen an abortion up close and personal OR known a woman who has had one, or lost a pregnancy.
Still don't get it: if anti-abortion folks are really upset about this stuff......why the F aren't all of you working with libs, and throwing money at preventing unwanted pregnancies? You could almost eliminate it....free condoms and b control, sex ed, etc.

Not only is your team not doing that---you're actively preventing programs like this from happening. We had it on a State level in Colorado...and teen pregnancy fell of a cliff. What did your team do? They shut it down.

And I've yet to hear anyone on your team explain why. I don't get it.....
You keep adding "my team" to it. Not my ballclub.
That said, I'm ALL for prevention and education. It's money well sent IMO.
But why the hue and cry over eliminating abortions legally too? If my "team" accepts contraception and education, would the other be open to eliminating it as an "elective" surgery?
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Nope, but it would sure be far more rare...which surely is the point, right?

It's not as if criminalizing abortion again actually eliminates it...it just takes it to the back alley.

Focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies, guys, it works.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by kramerica.inc »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:00 pm Nope, but it would sure be far more rare...which surely is the point, right?

It's not as if criminalizing abortion again actually eliminates it...it just takes it to the back alley.

Focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies, guys, it works.
As you mentioned, you're not criminalizing it. You're making it much less rare if it's not elective.
If you went that route, you wouldn't have back alley abortions. You would have doctors who want to earn a buck or are sympathetic to the "cause." Just like some docs are more likely to prescribe pain killers or antibiotics than others.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:09 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:00 pm Nope, but it would sure be far more rare...which surely is the point, right?

It's not as if criminalizing abortion again actually eliminates it...it just takes it to the back alley.

Focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies, guys, it works.
As you mentioned, you're not criminalizing it. You're making it much less rare if it's not elective.
If you went that route, you wouldn't have back alley abortions. You would have doctors who want to earn a buck or are sympathetic to the "cause." Just like some docs are more likely to prescribe pain killers or antibiotics than others.
I may not be as immersed in the lingo as you, Kram.
Are you suggesting that 'not elective' makes it not criminal, but you can't do it in a hospital?

As I understand 'elective' versus non-elective' is that the first is a choice, the latter is caused by an immediate risk of death to the patient.

The anti-abortion folks want it to be criminal to perform or get an abortion. Not sure what you're suggesting.
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