Washington & Lee 2022

[mdlaxdad]

https://twitter.com/wlugenerals/status/ ... 1Un8p20wgA

This is a pretty wild statistic for all of the complaining that goes on in the W&L forum.

There is no AQ for regular season champion. W&l will not be playing in NCAA tournament if they don't win the conference tournament. It is as simple as that. It is evident as seen last year, beating LYN in ODAC play to get blown out the following night by the same opponent. Beating the same team twice is the kryptonite of this program. As great as it is to beat these teams in the regular season, it is just as bad to get blown out in the conference tournament( i.e last year's championship game).

[ilovethegenerals!]

What does W&L need to do to become a top 10 team each year and possibly contend for a title?

Get rid of the coach

[AnonymousLaxew1256]

What does W&L need to do to become a top 10 team each year and possibly contend for a title?

Get rid of the coach

Agreed. Beating up on the lower 75% of the ODAC year in and year out while consistently losing almost every single high-profile non-conference game and missing out on the NCAA tournament year after year should not be the standard for this program.

[InsiderRoll]

What does W&L need to do to become a top 10 team each year and possibly contend for a title?

Get rid of the coach

Agreed. Beating up on the lower 75% of the ODAC year in and year out while consistently losing almost every single high-profile non-conference game and missing out on the NCAA tournament year after year should not be the standard for this program.

I guess. But they historically they only make the NCAA tournament 4 times a decade dating back to the 70s. I don’t know why everyone acts like W&L is Salisbury. , they aren’t. Perhaps it’s the entitlement associated with the school, but people believe this historic program has had more success than it really has. They’ve been consistently solid with a few good years for the last 40 years. That trend hasn’t changed at all under McCabe. The numbers say this program isn’t what you think it is.

2011-19 4 NCAA appearances
2000-09 4 NCAA appearances
1991-99 4 NCAA appearances
1981-90 1 NCAA appearance

Late 90s to early 00s we’re good years for about 4/5 years. Pretty sure McCabe was an assistant for those teams too.

The 70s were a different story, but also a different era. Wooden sticks and only a few teams that played.

There’s a lot of “they should be…” but in reality they rarely ever were…

[OSVAlacrosse]

Recruiting is priority number one when it comes to being a top ten team year in and year out. You can't win if you don't have the talent. If you look at the W&L roster, they are still getting kids from top high school programs around the country. Their top 5 scorers they come from Salesianum, St. Albans, St. John's prep (MA), Delbarton and Taft. I can't speak to the actual talent level of these players coming out of high school, or the level of recruit they were, but those are all great programs. I'm not sure if they are getting a Delbarton kid every year, but they still are getting North Jersey, Philly, Baltimore and DC recruits from top programs. I still think they have those pipelines.

The real question might be if these kids are getting any better over their four years? You can't just rely on a players talent coming out of high school and hope that he is a good college player. I think that is what is separating some of the top programs right now.

I deleted a post with two many words but this may be a easier question? Where should W&L be getting recruits? Balt/NJ? I would think Virginia but the only DC area school listed above is St.Albans who is not one of the top DC area lacrosse programs. Yes, they have some good players but not a top team in their conference. I think W&L does not have a consistent pipeline with teams or clubs in the DC suburbs. CNU has several recruits from St Johns and SSSA. Other top schools in DC have kids at Amherst, Tufts, even Richmond that maybe could be W&L candidates. Why does W&L not recruit it the hotbed of DC for lacrosse? The current HS juniors and seniors don't seem to show evidence that they are recruiting locally.

[InsiderRoll]

Recruiting is priority number one when it comes to being a top ten team year in and year out. You can't win if you don't have the talent. If you look at the W&L roster, they are still getting kids from top high school programs around the country. Their top 5 scorers they come from Salesianum, St. Albans, St. John's prep (MA), Delbarton and Taft. I can't speak to the actual talent level of these players coming out of high school, or the level of recruit they were, but those are all great programs. I'm not sure if they are getting a Delbarton kid every year, but they still are getting North Jersey, Philly, Baltimore and DC recruits from top programs. I still think they have those pipelines.

The real question might be if these kids are getting any better over their four years? You can't just rely on a players talent coming out of high school and hope that he is a good college player. I think that is what is separating some of the top programs right now.

I deleted a post with two many words but this may be a easier question? Where should W&L be getting recruits? Balt/NJ? I would think Virginia but the only DC area school listed above is St.Albans who is not one of the top DC area lacrosse programs. Yes, they have some good players but not a top team in their conference. I think W&L does not have a consistent pipeline with teams or clubs in the DC suburbs. CNU has several recruits from St Johns and SSSA. Other top schools in DC have kids at Amherst, Tufts, even Richmond that maybe could be W&L candidates. Why does W&L not recruit it the hotbed of DC for lacrosse? The current HS juniors and seniors don't seem to show evidence that they are recruiting locally.

They should be able to recruit nationally. I will say their current recruiting coordinator was the recruiting coordinator at Amherst that built most of the 2019 National finalist team. He is known as a very good recruiter and evaluator, he will likely make a big impact in coming years.

[netminder]

This is an interesting discussion. My guess would be the head coaches marching orders are something like this:
A. Recruit kids who will be able to handle the academics
B. Recruit kids who will be good citizens of the school community
C. Be competitive in the ODAC
D. Graduate your kids in four years.

If you are lucky enough to get two solid recruiting classes in - then maybe you will advance in the NCAA’s. I don’t think competing for a National Championship is even discussed. The W&L roster has 15-20 different states represented, my guess is that is a lot better then most schools. When you are a small school like W&L it is really hard to compete for a National Championship without jeopardizing your core values.

[NJlxrdad]

This is an interesting discussion. My guess would be the head coaches marching orders are something like this:
A. Recruit kids who will be able to handle the academics
B. Recruit kids who will be good citizens of the school community
C. Be competitive in the ODAC
D. Graduate your kids in four years.

If you are lucky enough to get two solid recruiting classes in - then maybe you will advance in the NCAA’s. I don’t think competing for a National Championship is even discussed. The W&L roster has 15-20 different states represented, my guess is that is a lot better then most schools. When you are a small school like W&L it is really hard to compete for a National Championship without jeopardizing your core values.

I picture the exact same thing. I guess the question is then, does W&L's academics prevent them from becoming a consistent top 10 team? Does Admissions hold the team back. And if they losen up a tad will those recruits be able to handle the academics and stay on the field? I

The facilities seem competitive but maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe its just needing to do a lot of things a litle better?

[JPAtlantic]

This is an interesting discussion. My guess would be the head coaches marching orders are something like this:
A. Recruit kids who will be able to handle the academics
B. Recruit kids who will be good citizens of the school community
C. Be competitive in the ODAC
D. Graduate your kids in four years.

If you are lucky enough to get two solid recruiting classes in - then maybe you will advance in the NCAA’s. I don’t think competing for a National Championship is even discussed. The W&L roster has 15-20 different states represented, my guess is that is a lot better then most schools. When you are a small school like W&L it is really hard to compete for a National Championship without jeopardizing your core values.

I picture the exact same thing. I guess the question is then, does W&L's academics prevent them from becoming a consistent top 10 team? Does Admissions hold the team back. And if they losen up a tad will those recruits be able to handle the academics and stay on the field? I

The facilities seem competitive but maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe its just needing to do a lot of things a litle better?

Aren't the NESCAC schools operating with the same limitations? They compete every year.

[netminder]

Well Wesleyan and Amherst had a great runs a few years ago. Middlebury last appeared in the finals 17 years ago. Tufts wants to win national championships and with an undergrad population of 6k + that is not that difficult. W&L has 1,700 students which is probably smaller than all the Nescac’s. The NESCAC conference is great, but outside Tufts, they can not hang with RIT, Salisbury, Stevenson, Cortland(years ago) year in and year out. This year CNU, SJF, and York are new comers to the top of D3. My only point is that it is really hard to do without compromising your core mission.

[Skeetlax]

W&L held a Prospect Camp in October. Over 60 attendees from as far north as NYC and as far south as Hilton Head. Several also from the midwest.

[richard]

Anytime I see comments like these last few the first thing I think is that there is bad team chemistry. I saw it with Gettysburg a few years back and I’ve seen it with other teams too, some that I’ve been close to.

[BallHunt]

Well Wesleyan and Amherst had a great runs a few years ago. Middlebury last appeared in the finals 17 years ago. Tufts wants to win national championships and with an undergrad population of 6k + that is not that difficult. W&L has 1,700 students which is probably smaller than all the Nescac’s. The NESCAC conference is great, but outside Tufts, they can not hang with RIT, Salisbury, Stevenson, Cortland(years ago) year in and year out. This year CNU, SJF, and York are new comers to the top of D3. My only point is that it is really hard to do without compromising your core mission.

This is an interesting take on "core mission" as W&L and NESCAC conference schools have converging similar "core values," at least nowadays. Are most of the top 10 teams able to lean on a hands-off state school approach? More loosely attached to the "core mission" of the school?

[ergit]

Just about any school can develop a consistent, championship competitive team.
You need a high-character, more-than-competent coach, surrounded by a good coaching staff, who is able to develop a successful culture over time.
The team culture has to revolve around responsibility and accountability.
The idea of a school’s ‘core mission’ getting in the way is a bit of a smoke screen.
If you took Childs from York for example and put him in at W&L, he would turn them into a winner and championship calibre team given time (no disrespect to the current coach). The reason is that he is a coach with a long view and has the willingness to invest the time to build a program. Winning does help in recruiting but so does a program with a perceived identity (style of play) and a culture of success.

[InsiderRoll]

Just about any school can develop a consistent, championship competitive team.
You need a high-character, more-than-competent coach, surrounded by a good coaching staff, who is able to develop a successful culture over time.
The team culture has to revolve around responsibility and accountability.
The idea of a school’s ‘core mission’ getting in the way is a bit of a smoke screen.
If you took Childs from York for example and put him in at W&L, he would turn them into a winner and championship calibre team given time (no disrespect to the current coach). The reason is that he is a coach with a long view and has the willingness to invest the time to build a program. Winning does help in recruiting but so does a program with a perceived identity (style of play) and a culture of success.

You’re right to an extent. But the coach has to be the right fit for each school. They aren’t as interchangeable as you’re making it out to be. The personality of the students and faculty at York are completely different than a W&L. Childs absolutely berates kids on the field, my guess W&L admin would struggle with that. Considering they’ve fired coaches on other sports for similar actions. The AD also matters and the fit and vision matter. I agree that the core mission matters but isn’t the end all, but again if Child’s can’t get players into W&L at the same rate as Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan, and Tufts… then they won’t be as good period.

Daly is a phenomenal coach but Brown is now worse then they were when he started. Because Brown is limited compared to some of their piers.

Washington College was good not too long ago, but turnover in university leadership along with massive admissions mistakes (under enrollment) and poor investments crippled their financial aid abilities. Now they can’t compete with others.

The way Sean Woods and Jon Thompson are/were supported at Amherst are completely different. If there is a decline at Amherst it isn’t because Sean Woods can’t coach. It’s because the admissions department cut back substantially. Which is why many of Amherst sports are currently in some decline.

My point is, things aren’t always as equal as you think they are. Winning championships is tricky. Recruiting is king. And coaching for most is a matter of hard work meeting opportunity and luck. Kevin Warne was nearly fired after 2-10 and 4-12 seasons. He had to fire all his assistants, reset his program and was fortunate enough to have a great year that saved his job. He’ll tell you it took a special group of seniors. Now he’s talked about as one of the best. Do you think he forgot how to coach during that time?

Jeff Tambroni is one of the best out there. Massive success at Cornell. Outside of 1 great year hasn’t been able to replicate it at Penn State.

Danowski wasn’t setting the world on fire at Hofstra. But he got the Duke job because no high profile people would take it. All of the resources there allowed it to quickly become a winner. Do think if he was still at Hofstra that Hofstra would win championships?

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

Some interesting points in all of this. I know that I was not focused on winning an NCAA title while some of the conversation has now drifted that way. It’s a great objective and I believe possible while not probable at W&L. My only point was that with everything at their disposal they should be better and performing at a higher level. That would mean more OOC wins especially top 10 programs which they have done but rarely. Not just getting to the NCAA’s but making a final four appearance would be the initial ultimate goal. I think that’s a realistic goal or at least be in the conversation for what qualifies as a great season. As I’ve stated you are either getting better as a program or moving down which is easy to do, I listed countless examples, WAC, Middlebury, Cortland, Nazareth and others …Just beat Roanoke today and continue to work to be better.

[mdlaxdad]

Big test today for the Generals. Hope to see them use more of their depth at the midfield to give the first two lines a break. Also would like to see more consistency with the players on the field at attack. Even with turnovers, kids shouldn’t be pulled, but rather a chance to redeem themselves and make a play. Always love this rivalry and expecting a close game.

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

Big test today for the Generals. Hope to see them use more of their depth at the midfield to give the first two lines a break. Also would like to see more consistency with the players on the field at attack. Even with turnovers, kids shouldn’t be pulled, but rather a chance to redeem themselves and make a play. Always love this rivalry and expecting a close game.

That’s why they have so many turnovers, it’s coachable. In practice, in drills, in the fall it’s accepted. If it wasn’t you would not have it in the games. IT’s understood that there are no repercussions for low IQ , or poor fundamentals come game time because it’s not corrected in practice, it’s acceptable. Let’s hope they have far fewer this afternoon and deny Kammermann the ball the D will thank everyone after the game. Interesting they have Horgan on Kammermann. Spaghs w 10 saves first qtr?????? Asking a lot of him.
Spaghs has 14 saves playing great. W&L had literally 5 shots with 6 yards I don’t think they hit the cage on any of them. Generals could be ahead if they could shoot get it on the cage , they’ve got 12 SOG’s. One starter on offense has 7 shots or 25% of the teams shots for 0 goals. Need to posses the ball rest the D at least. Amazing Holiday has a shot going wide hits a D mans stick and ricochets in

Cardiac kids hold on, great game Spaghs and Horgan MVP

[NJlxrdad]

Big test today for the Generals. Hope to see them use more of their depth at the midfield to give the first two lines a break. Also would like to see more consistency with the players on the field at attack. Even with turnovers, kids shouldn’t be pulled, but rather a chance to redeem themselves and make a play. Always love this rivalry and expecting a close game.

That’s why they have so many turnovers, it’s coachable. In practice, in drills, in the fall it’s accepted. If it wasn’t you would not have it in the games. IT’s understood that there are no repercussions for low IQ , or poor fundamentals come game time because it’s not corrected in practice, it’s acceptable. Let’s hope they have far fewer this afternoon and deny Kammermann the ball the D will thank everyone after the game. Interesting they have Horgan on Kammermann. Spaghs w 10 saves first qtr?????? Asking a lot of him.
Spaghs has 14 saves playing great. W&L had literally 5 shots with 6 yards I don’t think they hit the cage on any of them. Generals could be ahead if they could shoot get it on the cage , they’ve got 12 SOG’s. One starter on offense has 7 shots or 25% of the teams shots for 0 goals. Need to posses the ball rest the D at least. Amazing Holiday has a shot going wide hits a D mans stick and ricochets in

Cardiac kids hold on, great game Spaghs and Horgan MVP

Nice win for sure. Good job by Gallagher on face offs too. Horgan took Kammerman out of the game, Spags with a ridiculous 1st half and MacCowatt just running through the Noke D at will.

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

Nice win for the Generals and hats off to the D especially Spagnoletti. He’s playing lights out, hope he has a few more great games left in him. This is his team hands down. He’s made about 150 saves to date almost 15 a game with a .629 save rate. He’s had his very best games against some teams that aren’t cupcakes, York .714 Gburg.655 CNU .618 and Noke .724…. Tell me if I’m missing something but that’s AA numbers against top 20 teams except Noke
To provide some perspective Taylor who was outstanding had save rates from his freshman year at .548 .581 .528 and sr yr .567 ( for a career rate .562) Taylor was strong outside the crease in the clearing dept so is Spagnoletti. He’s having a great year with three 20 plus save games. If the O picks up and reduces the number of turnovers can they Gennies steal one against Lynchburg. Special game by Horgan as well allowing only 3 shots for Kammermann and two assists ( both to Whitlow wide open on crease). Horgan had 2 gb’s as well and NO turnovers, we’ll let the two penalties slide. Generals are also getting very solid play from ssdm Bentley 1 goal 4 gbs and Marsh with 5 gbs. The two of them are also excellent in the clearing game. They both have good sticks know when to go to goal and you don’t have to worry about them throwing it away.