Syracuse 2022

[Powellfan22]

Syracuse fans have been complaining about the same defensive issues for years now. You can swap out the personnel and the past few seasons have seen the same poor slides, the same bad ssdm play, the same sloppy penalties, the same poor communication.

You don't really believe that, do you? Drop UMd's D/Goalie from 2021 into Syracuse's D...and you think they're going to have the same season?

They haven't had the players, my man. And yup, that's on the recruiting. I agree with you there.

If Gait and Petro can recruit better? They'll win. If they can't? they won't. Simple.

When Desko had elite players? He won Championships, made Final Fours, and had nice seasons.

Those players started going to other schools. It's as simple as that.

I guess I was trying to say, we’ve seen multiple lineups play these last few seasons and the same problems seem to rear their head. When you’ve cycled through multiple players, and problems persist, I tend to think it’s more than a personnel issue.

You’d be correct but you’re talking to the equivalent of a brick wall

Rogers D was just fine in the full season of 2019. 10 gaa is solid Division I D in the shot clock era, assuming a tough schedule.

And 2020....SU was undefeated, and the defense was just fine when looking at the limited data we have.

But you two think that the ONLY possible reason that SU's D wasn't good in 2021.....was coaching.

It can't possibly be that their leader on D went down for the year in game one, and they had some other key injuries? The players you throw out there in D1 ball don't matter.....that's what you two are telling me?

Okay.

You seem to be misrepresenting my posts. I said that recruiting has been an issue and the people in charge of recruiting are the coaches. Is it someone else I’m not aware of?

Injuries were an issue last year but in games they were fully healthy they gave up oodles of goals. How many goals is a ssdm worth? Would having a healthy Avilles have kept five goals off the board? Would giving up 15 instead of 20 in some of these games have been more acceptable? Who is the defensive leader they lost in the first game? Clary? Was he the defensive leader? A first time starter and redshirt freshman? Really?

You seem set on being a contrarian, but please don’t tell me I’m saying things that I’m clearly not.

Okay?

[HopFan16]

I will defend Desko and say I don't think it's been super easy to recruit to Syracuse in recent years. 20 years ago he could stand on the program's history and tradition of winning as points in its favor (compared to other schools), but now that's not as much of a selling point. With all due respect to the school and the city of Syracuse, how many reasons are there really for why a kid would go there over UNC, UVA, Duke, or ND?

We've been over this before but the recruiting profiles at most of those other ACC schools are just more enticing in terms of location, academics, etc. Those are the schools he had to recruit against (to say nothing of places like Georgetown, Villanova, Hopkins, Maryland, Penn State, the Ivies, and many others outside the ACC)—and on top of all that stuff, those ACCs also have a more recent history of success. So Cuse's one big argument that used to lure recruits in doesn't have the same value. We talk a lot about how coach X or coach Y is a great recruiter and sure some are better at developing relationships or persuading families than others, but at the end of the day, the school itself does the majority of the recruiting.

When recruits compare institutions and ask themselves what schools they can really see themselves being students at, Cuse probably loses that argument more often than not. I think Cuse is extremely, extremely fortunate Joey Spallina grew up a huge Cuse fan and then helped bring in all these other top recruits because had that not happened I think they'd be staring at a third straight year with zero Under-Armor All-Americans in 2022 with no end in sight. But now with a top recruit in the mix and a new staff they have the opportunity to change perceptions and boost recruiting for the future. That's not something they've had in awhile. Doesn't mean it will happen but at least there's a chance.

[a fan]

Syracuse fans have been complaining about the same defensive issues for years now. You can swap out the personnel and the past few seasons have seen the same poor slides, the same bad ssdm play, the same sloppy penalties, the same poor communication.

You don't really believe that, do you? Drop UMd's D/Goalie from 2021 into Syracuse's D...and you think they're going to have the same season?

They haven't had the players, my man. And yup, that's on the recruiting. I agree with you there.

If Gait and Petro can recruit better? They'll win. If they can't? they won't. Simple.

When Desko had elite players? He won Championships, made Final Fours, and had nice seasons.

Those players started going to other schools. It's as simple as that.

I guess I was trying to say, we’ve seen multiple lineups play these last few seasons and the same problems seem to rear their head. When you’ve cycled through multiple players, and problems persist, I tend to think it’s more than a personnel issue.

You’d be correct but you’re talking to the equivalent of a brick wall

Rogers D was just fine in the full season of 2019. 10 gaa is solid Division I D in the shot clock era, assuming a tough schedule.

And 2020....SU was undefeated, and the defense was just fine when looking at the limited data we have.

But you two think that the ONLY possible reason that SU's D wasn't good in 2021.....was coaching.

It can't possibly be that their leader on D went down for the year in game one, and they had some other key injuries? The players you throw out there in D1 ball don't matter.....that's what you two are telling me?

Okay.

You seem to be misrepresenting my posts. I said that recruiting has been an issue and the people in charge of recruiting are the coaches. Is it someone else I’m not aware of?

Injuries were an issue last year but in games they were fully healthy they gave up oodles of goals. How many goals is a ssdm worth? Would having a healthy Avilles have kept five goals off the board? Would giving up 15 instead of 20 in some of these games have been more acceptable? Who is the defensive leader they lost in the first game? Clary? Was he the defensive leader? A first time starter and redshirt freshman? Really?

You seem set on being a contrarian, but please don’t tell me I’m saying things that I’m clearly not.

Okay?

I quoted you directly. Twice.

And now I've bolded your statements. If I'm misrepresenting what you're saying-----you tell me what you mean by the bolded parts. You're implying that D coaching was the problem.

Feel free to correct me. I'm not intentionally misrepresenting your posts.

[JeremyCuse]

I will defend Desko and say I don't think it's been super easy to recruit to Syracuse in recent years. 20 years ago he could stand on the program's history and tradition of winning as points in its favor (compared to other schools), but now that's not as much of a selling point. With all due respect to the school and the city of Syracuse, how many reasons are there really for why a kid would go there over UNC, UVA, Duke, or ND?

We've been over this before but the recruiting profiles at most of those other ACC schools are just more enticing in terms of location, academics, etc. Those are the schools he had to recruit against (to say nothing of places like Georgetown, Villanova, Hopkins, Maryland, Penn State, the Ivies, and many others outside the ACC)—and on top of all that stuff, those ACCs also have a more recent history of success. So Cuse's one big argument that used to lure recruits in doesn't have the same value. We talk a lot about how coach X or coach Y is a great recruiter and sure some are better at developing relationships or persuading families than others, but at the end of the day, the school itself does the majority of the recruiting.

When recruits compare institutions and ask themselves what schools they can really see themselves being students at, Cuse probably loses that argument more often than not. I think Cuse is extremely, extremely fortunate Joey Spallina grew up a huge Cuse fan and then helped bring in all these other top recruits because had that not happened I think they'd be staring at a third straight year with zero Under-Armor All-Americans in 2022 with no end in sight. But now with a top recruit in the mix and a new staff they have the opportunity to change perceptions and boost recruiting for the future. That's not something they've had in awhile. Doesn't mean it will happen but at least there's a chance.

I don't disagree with those points and I think it does explain the fall in SU recruiting specifically in the 2010's to date. However, SU did have Hiltz as a UA in 2020 but I do get your point. They had zero in 2019 with Zawada's late flip and had 3 in 2018. I assume they will have 4 or 5 next year assuming everyone stays committed and signs in three months.

[Powellfan22]

Syracuse fans have been complaining about the same defensive issues for years now. You can swap out the personnel and the past few seasons have seen the same poor slides, the same bad ssdm play, the same sloppy penalties, the same poor communication.

You don't really believe that, do you? Drop UMd's D/Goalie from 2021 into Syracuse's D...and you think they're going to have the same season?

They haven't had the players, my man. And yup, that's on the recruiting. I agree with you there.

If Gait and Petro can recruit better? They'll win. If they can't? they won't. Simple.

When Desko had elite players? He won Championships, made Final Fours, and had nice seasons.

Those players started going to other schools. It's as simple as that.

I guess I was trying to say, we’ve seen multiple lineups play these last few seasons and the same problems seem to rear their head. When you’ve cycled through multiple players, and problems persist, I tend to think it’s more than a personnel issue.

You’d be correct but you’re talking to the equivalent of a brick wall

Rogers D was just fine in the full season of 2019. 10 gaa is solid Division I D in the shot clock era, assuming a tough schedule.

And 2020....SU was undefeated, and the defense was just fine when looking at the limited data we have.

But you two think that the ONLY possible reason that SU's D wasn't good in 2021.....was coaching.

It can't possibly be that their leader on D went down for the year in game one, and they had some other key injuries? The players you throw out there in D1 ball don't matter.....that's what you two are telling me?

Okay.

You seem to be misrepresenting my posts. I said that recruiting has been an issue and the people in charge of recruiting are the coaches. Is it someone else I’m not aware of?

Injuries were an issue last year but in games they were fully healthy they gave up oodles of goals. How many goals is a ssdm worth? Would having a healthy Avilles have kept five goals off the board? Would giving up 15 instead of 20 in some of these games have been more acceptable? Who is the defensive leader they lost in the first game? Clary? Was he the defensive leader? A first time starter and redshirt freshman? Really?

You seem set on being a contrarian, but please don’t tell me I’m saying things that I’m clearly not.

Okay?

I quoted you directly. Twice.

And now I've bolded your statements. If I'm misrepresenting what you're saying-----you tell me what you mean by the bolded parts. You're implying that D coaching was the problem.

Feel free to correct me. I'm not intentionally misrepresenting your posts.

My issue here is that you seem to focus on the bolded sentences but disregard everything else I’ve said. Yes it’s coaching, yes it’s injuries, yes it’s recruiting. It’s all of it and ultimately I think that the issues go back to the coaching. I think I am lost on just what your argument is. Do you think Rogers deserved to be back? What would your expectations for the Orange defense be next year if the coaching staff hadn’t changed?

[JeremyCuse]

Syracuse fans have been complaining about the same defensive issues for years now. You can swap out the personnel and the past few seasons have seen the same poor slides, the same bad ssdm play, the same sloppy penalties, the same poor communication.

You don't really believe that, do you? Drop UMd's D/Goalie from 2021 into Syracuse's D...and you think they're going to have the same season?

They haven't had the players, my man. And yup, that's on the recruiting. I agree with you there.

If Gait and Petro can recruit better? They'll win. If they can't? they won't. Simple.

When Desko had elite players? He won Championships, made Final Fours, and had nice seasons.

Those players started going to other schools. It's as simple as that.

I guess I was trying to say, we’ve seen multiple lineups play these last few seasons and the same problems seem to rear their head. When you’ve cycled through multiple players, and problems persist, I tend to think it’s more than a personnel issue.

You’d be correct but you’re talking to the equivalent of a brick wall

Rogers D was just fine in the full season of 2019. 10 gaa is solid Division I D in the shot clock era, assuming a tough schedule.

And 2020....SU was undefeated, and the defense was just fine when looking at the limited data we have.

But you two think that the ONLY possible reason that SU's D wasn't good in 2021.....was coaching.

It can't possibly be that their leader on D went down for the year in game one, and they had some other key injuries? The players you throw out there in D1 ball don't matter.....that's what you two are telling me?

Okay.

You seem to be misrepresenting my posts. I said that recruiting has been an issue and the people in charge of recruiting are the coaches. Is it someone else I’m not aware of?

Injuries were an issue last year but in games they were fully healthy they gave up oodles of goals. How many goals is a ssdm worth? Would having a healthy Avilles have kept five goals off the board? Would giving up 15 instead of 20 in some of these games have been more acceptable? Who is the defensive leader they lost in the first game? Clary? Was he the defensive leader? A first time starter and redshirt freshman? Really?

You seem set on being a contrarian, but please don’t tell me I’m saying things that I’m clearly not.

Okay?

I quoted you directly. Twice.

And now I've bolded your statements. If I'm misrepresenting what you're saying-----you tell me what you mean by the bolded parts. You're implying that D coaching was the problem.

Feel free to correct me. I'm not intentionally misrepresenting your posts.

My issue here is that you seem to focus on the bolded sentences but disregard everything else I’ve said. Yes it’s coaching, yes it’s injuries, yes it’s recruiting. It’s all of it and ultimately I think that the issues go back to the coaching. I think I am lost on just what your argument is. Do you think Rogers deserved to be back? What would your expectations for the Orange defense be next year if the coaching staff hadn’t changed?

It was clear to every SU fan that a change was needed, all staffs and coordinators run their course at some point and Rodgers who had a great career here had run his. Is Petro the answer? Only time will tell and he's unlikely to be here more then a few seasons but hard to argue that it wasn't time for a wholesale change.

[a fan]

My issue here is that you seem to focus on the bolded sentences but disregard everything else I’ve said. Yes it’s coaching, yes it’s injuries, yes it’s recruiting.

Cool. Thanks for clarifying. I can only respond to what I read....I'm not a mind reader.

It’s all of it and ultimately I think that the issues go back to the coaching. I think I am lost on just what your argument is.

That coaching wasn't the problem. The players are the problem.

Picture the last two generations of players on Syracuse Championship teams...the 04 and 08 Teams. Do you see anywhere near the talent level on the 2021 roster?

Do you think Rogers deserved to be back?

Desko? Yes. To run out his HOF contract. He earned it, and then some. Bringing in a new D coordinator would have done nothing.

What would your expectations for the Orange defense be next year if the coaching staff hadn’t changed?

My expectations for the Orange D are the same, regardless of coaching staff. This isn't rocket surgery. It's lacrosse.

My belief is the same as HopFan16's points (which also apply to his Hopkins team, btw).....Syracuse's tuition has gone through the roof in the last 20 years, and the quality for price just ain't there-----and when you're a blue chipper, and get a better overall financial offer at the other ACC schools...why would you go to SU?

And to my eyes, it's clear as day that the elite players that arrived at Syracuse for 22 straight years (and then some) are landing at other schools.

If Gait can fix this, and start a pipeline from Canada again, etc.? They'll win. But if they get the same level of players that have arrived the last few years?

And for the record? Outside of this year? I've really enjoyed watching Desko's teams the last several years. No Final Fours...but fun to watch! Really good players....it's just that other teams had better players. No shame in that.

[HopFan16]

My belief is the same as HopFan16's points (which also apply to his Hopkins team, btw).....Syracuse's tuition has gone through the roof in the last 20 years, and the quality for price just ain't there-----and when you're a blue chipper, and get a better overall financial offer at the other ACC schools...why would you go to SU?

Yes and no...like Cuse, Hopkins can't rely on its history or tradition like it used to, but I would argue it has several other factors in its favor (discussed ad nauseam in the Hopkins thread so I won't get into it here) relative to other programs, particularly a few in its own conference. From a recruiting standpoint, Hop has advantages over many of its B1G rivals that Cuse does not within the ACC. There are drawbacks of course too, but if you want a top-tier academic school in a lacrosse hotbed, which I think describes a decent number of kids, then you're going to pick Hopkins over Ohio State 100 times out of 100. My $0.02.

[stupefied]

Fan meant Mellen who was injured in 1st game of 2020 , a game he stunk. 2020 defense moved on without and was fine just as it was 2019. Fifth year offensive players returned for 21 but three defenseman decided not to return and they were replaced by a d3, furman and utah idefenders n 2021 and then not one ssdm played up to ability for various reasons. Subject is now nothing but a pissing ground. The dc critics dont have to accept the factors mentioned and Fan doesnt have to agree with throwing dirt on a long tenured coach who had his share of success.


Fall ball cant get here soon enough. Looking forward to what Gait brings and does.

[a fan]

Yes and no...like Cuse, Hopkins can't rely on its history or tradition like it used to, but I would argue it has several other factors in its favor (discussed ad nauseam in the Hopkins thread so I won't get into it here) relative to other programs, particularly a few in its own conference. From a recruiting standpoint, Hop has advantages over many of its B1G rivals that Cuse does not within the ACC. There are drawbacks of course too, but if you want a top-tier academic school in a lacrosse hotbed, which I think describes a decent number of kids, then you're going to pick Hopkins over Ohio State 100 times out of 100.

And Michigan. I think fans are finally waking up to your reality, after insisting that UMich would be a Final Four contender for years to come.

I'd agree if entire teams were on full scholarships. They're not. And all it takes is missing out on one single elite player over money....and you're watching that kid play for another team over Memorial Day Weekend.

[a fan]

Fan meant Mellen who was injured in 1st game of 2020 , a game he stunk. 2020 defense moved on without and was fine just as it was 2019. Fifth year offensive players returned for 21 but three defenseman decided not to return and they were replaced by a d3, furman and utah idefenders n 2021 and then not one ssdm played up to ability for various reasons.

Yep. Spot on.

Subject is now nothing but a pissing ground. The dc critics dont have to accept the factors mentioned and Fan doesnt have to agree with throwing dirt on a long tenured coach who had his share of success.

Also true. But it's the offseason....it's ok to BS about this stuff...

Fall ball cant get here soon enough. Looking forward to what Gait brings and does.

We all agree on that count!

[Powellfan22]

That coaching wasn't the problem. The players are the problem.

Picture the last two generations of players on Syracuse Championship teams...the 04 and 08 Teams. Do you see anywhere near the talent level on the 2021 roster?

Okay, if it is a talent problem, whose fault is that? Do the coaches have no responsibility in that? They are the ones in charge of creating the roster.

And if talent is the end all and be all, how did a team with 9 all Americans in 2020 finish such a disappointing season in 2021, with all those players returning?

[DocBarrister]

Yes and no...like Cuse, Hopkins can't rely on its history or tradition like it used to, but I would argue it has several other factors in its favor (discussed ad nauseam in the Hopkins thread so I won't get into it here) relative to other programs, particularly a few in its own conference. From a recruiting standpoint, Hop has advantages over many of its B1G rivals that Cuse does not within the ACC. There are drawbacks of course too, but if you want a top-tier academic school in a lacrosse hotbed, which I think describes a decent number of kids, then you're going to pick Hopkins over Ohio State 100 times out of 100.

And Michigan. I think fans are finally waking up to your reality, after insisting that UMich would be a Final Four contender for years to come.

I'd agree if entire teams were on full scholarships. They're not. And all it takes is missing out on one single elite player over money....and you're watching that kid play for another team over Memorial Day Weekend.

Look, coaches matter. If Bill Tierney had left Princeton for Michigan instead of Denver, I suspect it would be Michigan with a single Division I lacrosse national title.

A problem with the players IS a problem with the coaches. You are preaching an overly simplistic dichotomy that doesn’t really exist.

This isn’t the NFL or the NBA, where coaches coach and general managers assemble the player roster. Job One for any Division I lacrosse head coach is recruiting. Can’t coach if you don’t have any players.

DocBarrister

[a fan]

Okay, if it is a talent problem, whose fault is that?

The coaches, first and foremost.

But the School itself comes into play. It's why Danowski didn't win doodly at Hofstra...yet has how many rings at Duke?

And if talent is the end all and be all, how did a team with 9 all Americans in 2020 finish such a disappointing season in 2021, with all those players returning?

Talent is the end all be all if you want to make Final Fours from year to year. Not one single team in the history of our sport has made the Final Four with a bunch of scrubs. You need elite players to make it. And no, having elite players doesn't mean you'll make Final Fours.

But to answer your question: they had a bad year because the other teams had better players, and it caught up to them, just like every other team that fell short of the Final Four.

Did we have a player as good as Schellenberger or Berhardt? No, right? As I asked before: do we have players equal to the caliber of the 04 or 08 roster? No. And it's not even a close call. You need the horses.

Do you think Maryland made the finals because Coach Benson showed up, and told Bernhardt what to do? I don't.

[a fan]

If Bill Tierney had left Princeton for Michigan instead of Denver, I suspect it would be Michigan with a single Division I lacrosse national title.

Case in point, with Tierney. He's still coaching, my man. He has had some good players since his last Final Four, by any measure.

So go ahead and explain why if coaching is some magic helper that pushes good (but not great) talent into big wins----where are all the Final Fours?

My answer is: other teams have better players.

What's your answer?

[DocBarrister]

If Bill Tierney had left Princeton for Michigan instead of Denver, I suspect it would be Michigan with a single Division I lacrosse national title.

Case in point, with Tierney. He's still coaching, my man. He has had some good players since his last Final Four, by any measure.

So go ahead and explain why if coaching is some magic helper that pushes good (but not great) talent into big wins----where are all the Final Fours?

My answer is: other teams have better players.

What's your answer?

Teams and coaches have up and down years. Talented players are hardly everything necessary to win a national championship.

The year Tierney won his 7th national championship, a Syracuse team with 11 All-Americans (that is, loaded with talent) got bounced in the quarterfinals.

Your thesis is just wrong. Talent is just one component necessary to win. Syracuse 2015 and Duke 2021 are proof of that.

And while coaches don’t forget how to coach, they sometimes forget to keep innovating and adapting to the times. I would put forth Tom Landry (Dallas Cowboys) and Dave Pietramala in that category. I fully expect Coach Petro to bring a new perspective with him to Syracuse, and achieve substantial success with the Orange.

DocBarrister

[wgdsr]

danowski's over the hill. or he's unlucky and petro is over the hill?

[a fan]

danowski's over the hill. or he's unlucky and petro is over the hill?

I think Petro is over the unlucky hill. Yeah, that's it.

Oh...until Petro makes the Final Four. Then Doc will come on and explain how Petro "forgot to innovate" at Hopkins for the last freaking five years, and found Jeezus at Syracuse. Oh, and "remember how to coach D1 lacrosse" again. Oh, and remember to tell his D charges to be aggressive.

Anything to keep him and his fellow posters from admitting the obvious.

[stupefied]

Cannnons of PLL have given up ten goals just entering 2q. Must be no d talent or coaching.

[DocBarrister]

danowski's over the hill. or he's unlucky and petro is over the hill?

I think Petro is over the unlucky hill. Yeah, that's it.

Oh...until Petro makes the Final Four. Then Doc will come on and explain how Petro "forgot to innovate" at Hopkins for the last freaking five years, and found Jeezus at Syracuse. Oh, and "remember how to coach D1 lacrosse" again. Oh, and remember to tell his D charges to be aggressive.

Anything to keep him and his fellow posters from admitting the obvious.

Look at the defenses of the four teams that made the Final Four this season. Do they resemble any defense Petro put together?

As I have stated in an earlier post, Petro is one of the greatest lacrosse coaches of all time. But his defensive approach was dated.

Having watched this year’s Final Four (or even Coach Koesterer’s Hopkins defense in the B1G tournament), does anyone really believe it is not worthwhile to try and cause turnovers because the stick technology makes that too difficult? Does anyone really believe that anymore?

Sure, every team still tries to make opponents take lower percentage shots … but does anyone really believe that opponents should be allowed to shoot freely from 15 yards and wholly depend on the goalie to make the stop? Or, should a defense be more aggressive and always try to disrupt the shooter by getting a stick on their hands or physically checking them?

Petro’s old defensive system relied far too heavily on goalies to make the big stop and faceoff wins to gain possession. Those are still important, but today’s best defenses are far more active, dynamic, and aggressive:

—Aggressive rides to win new possessions;
—Physical defense that prevents shooters from getting clean shots;
—dynamic defenses that are always working to cause turnovers; and
—defenses that view themselves as initiators of offense.

Pietramala is a great coach, and he has at least another decade of coaching in him. I can’t imagine he watched this year’s Final Four and thought to himself … I should just keep doing what I’ve been doing on defense the last quarter century.

Tom Landry never got a chance to reinvent himself. Petro has that opportunity now.

I expect the Syracuse defense to look pretty different next season from any defense Petro has ever put out on the field.

DocBarrister