NIL and Lacrosse

[coda]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

i get it that's your take, and i disagree. wholeheartedly. there were 700 people at a tosu game recently. we've had more at our high school for games. that's the sport outside of I95, apologies to denver. no hunting and gaming and friday night lights guy in alabama is watching lacrosse. the "need" is not there.

Kind of funny. OSU was 8th in average attendance in 2023 and that is your example. That was during a bad season
https://www.oceantooceanlacrosse.com/po ... e-rankings

here is how is looks on a per game basis. There is 1 Ivy that is top 10. 50% of the top 10 are large state Universities. Utah and Michigan are on the list, despite being very young programs with limited success


Per Game
1 Cuse 4232.11
2 Maryland 3908.13
3 Virginia 3473.89
4 ND 2217.43
5 Denver 2070.00
6 Hop 1933.40
7 Rutgers 1871.38
8 Osu 1814.43
9 Carolina 1795.22
10 Harvard 1720.17
11 navy 1643.44
12 Albany 1573.78
13 Duke 1514.89
14 Penn 1514.40
15 GT 1483.11
16 Army 1452.29
17 St Joespehs 1408.00
18 Loyola 1375.00
19 Princeton 1363.75
20 Michigan 1347.14
21 PSU 1315.71
22 Cornell 1231.86
23 Utah 1107.00
24 Yale 1044.33
25 delaware 947.27

you're highlighting attendance of 1,800 people. for a sport that might have 7 or 8 home games. and you'd like the next stage to be that lacrosse gets exclusive broadcast on 5 or 10 networks?

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

I don’t think that’s the right logic here. “Being big” = “doing more to grow the game” is problematic. And given both the small numbers and unique nature I don’t think this data tells you much that one can do something with. It’s problematic but some equal access system would be the best path to grow the game. Something better than the current AQ system unless we give up on
The myth that conferences have any value

Big is generally better for drawing eyeballs. You have fans at some of these big schools that will watch any event that their school is playing in. IF Texas, Oregon, or Florida start a new program it is likely to garner more attention than Lindenwood's jump. There are more variables than size, but you can not dismiss it. Conferences do have economic value. I dont think it is coincidence that the best funded conference in America has become a lacrosse power and seen 2 new lax only facilities built. The first need for expansion is an Athletic department with money. Not that I think expansion is imminent, but I would bet the next major program to join men's lacrosse will come from the Big 10. SEC would be my second choice, but not sure how that would work

[wgdsr]

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

coda,
having top attendance teams bring in fewer than 2k fans shows the state of play. i noted tosu as they are an absolutely humongous state school as u mentioned, and 700 in isolation, or 1,800 in toto reflects that.

viewership for the sport, between some big international games, to playoff games, even to the pll is way up. good, even though softball still dwarfs it. any success in popularity, also good. never said otherwise. the sport itself hasn't grown in the last 5 years re: participation. so we'll see whether it joins the list of almost all other sports except for bowling.

to me, that's fine and maybe inevitable, tho i'd like to see some modicum of grass roots growth return. but that'll come imo from other avenues than a bunch of big state universities signing on (which is more than a little unlikely, anyway). we have a lot of games on teevee. division 3 fanatics can watch a lot of the contenders play regularly. some pretty organized college club programs and leagues are options for other players/students. ivies and mid-majors can contend. i commented bc of the notion that we "need" expansion. understand that's your opinion about it, and valid as your thought. but to me, we're in a pretty good place. with some warts.


as far as nil goes, it's baked in the cake for now. we'll see how it bleeds once football and hoops sort it out.

The 1800 is not a large absolute number, but it does rank 8th among lacrosse programs. That is telling, especially considering the location and lack of tradition. My argument is that lacrosse is basically considered an east coast sport. That is where the fans are coming from. The growth will come from places like Texas, California, Florida, and the Midwest. That is where the growth is. It would be great to have major universities playing lax in all those areas.

tx, cali and florida, yes.... have had that growth. and no big state u teams to be found. not a coincidence.

much more important (like 100 or 1000x) is that the next generation of ex-laxers that start pushing out puppies, which are in far greater number than the previous generation, take that experience and build locally, wherever they are. it'll be hard enough to maintain much less grow substantially in this day and age of single-sport emphasis, elite travel club mania, screen time dominance and distractions.

and maybe take heed of some of the sideline behavior they endured and don't want to see repeated by adults.

[1766]

Title 9 makes adding men's lacrosse a real challenge at most universities. The game's growth is outpacing the growth at the college level.

[wgdsr]

Title 9 makes adding men's lacrosse a real challenge at most universities. The game's growth is outpacing the growth at the college level.

the game hasn't grown since 2018. maybe a year or 2 further back for boys, depending on your source.

and title ix doesn't affect anything, unless a school is using the proportional prong. and almost none of them are.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Title 9 makes adding men's lacrosse a real challenge at most universities. The game's growth is outpacing the growth at the college level.

the game hasn't grown since 2018. maybe a year or 2 further back for boys, depending on your source.

and title ix doesn't affect anything, unless a school is using the proportional prong. and almost none of them are.

Sixies will help grow the game.

[wgdsr]

Title 9 makes adding men's lacrosse a real challenge at most universities. The game's growth is outpacing the growth at the college level.

the game hasn't grown since 2018. maybe a year or 2 further back for boys, depending on your source.

and title ix doesn't affect anything, unless a school is using the proportional prong. and almost none of them are.

Sixies will help grow the game.

tld!!! you hate sixes!!!

you'll be happy to know, i've joined you in this boycott, like... since forever. banned my sons from playing with their rec team when the local indoor facility invented it before usa lacrosse invented it. refused ricky's overtures when the pll circus came to town.

to sixes!!!

[Farfromgeneva]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

i get it that's your take, and i disagree. wholeheartedly. there were 700 people at a tosu game recently. we've had more at our high school for games. that's the sport outside of I95, apologies to denver. no hunting and gaming and friday night lights guy in alabama is watching lacrosse. the "need" is not there.

Kind of funny. OSU was 8th in average attendance in 2023 and that is your example. That was during a bad season
https://www.oceantooceanlacrosse.com/po ... e-rankings

here is how is looks on a per game basis. There is 1 Ivy that is top 10. 50% of the top 10 are large state Universities. Utah and Michigan are on the list, despite being very young programs with limited success


Per Game
1 Cuse 4232.11
2 Maryland 3908.13
3 Virginia 3473.89
4 ND 2217.43
5 Denver 2070.00
6 Hop 1933.40
7 Rutgers 1871.38
8 Osu 1814.43
9 Carolina 1795.22
10 Harvard 1720.17
11 navy 1643.44
12 Albany 1573.78
13 Duke 1514.89
14 Penn 1514.40
15 GT 1483.11
16 Army 1452.29
17 St Joespehs 1408.00
18 Loyola 1375.00
19 Princeton 1363.75
20 Michigan 1347.14
21 PSU 1315.71
22 Cornell 1231.86
23 Utah 1107.00
24 Yale 1044.33
25 delaware 947.27

you're highlighting attendance of 1,800 people. for a sport that might have 7 or 8 home games. and you'd like the next stage to be that lacrosse gets exclusive broadcast on 5 or 10 networks?

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

I don’t think that’s the right logic here. “Being big” = “doing more to grow the game” is problematic. And given both the small numbers and unique nature I don’t think this data tells you much that one can do something with. It’s problematic but some equal access system would be the best path to grow the game. Something better than the current AQ system unless we give up on
The myth that conferences have any value

Big is generally better for drawing eyeballs. You have fans at some of these big schools that will watch any event that their school is playing in. IF Texas, Oregon, or Florida start a new program it is likely to garner more attention than Lindenwood's jump. There are more variables than size, but you can not dismiss it. Conferences do have economic value. I dont think it is coincidence that the best funded conference in America has become a lacrosse power and seen 2 new lax only facilities built. The first need for expansion is an Athletic department with money. Not that I think expansion is imminent, but I would bet the next major program to join men's lacrosse will come from the Big 10. SEC would be my second choice, but not sure how that would work

What is conference roles once the colleges are licensed to professional for profit owners?

[Farfromgeneva]

Title 9 makes adding men's lacrosse a real challenge at most universities. The game's growth is outpacing the growth at the college level.

the game hasn't grown since 2018. maybe a year or 2 further back for boys, depending on your source.

and title ix doesn't affect anything, unless a school is using the proportional prong. and almost none of them are.

Sixies will help grow the game.

tld!!! you hate sixes!!!

you'll be happy to know, i've joined you in this boycott, like... since forever. banned my sons from playing with their rec team when the local indoor facility invented it before usa lacrosse invented it. refused ricky's overtures when the pll circus came to town.

to sixes!!!

My son’s new team had a practice scrimmage of sixes recently and I was immediately let down when he said how they played. I’m in on down
With sixes.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Title 9 makes adding men's lacrosse a real challenge at most universities. The game's growth is outpacing the growth at the college level.

the game hasn't grown since 2018. maybe a year or 2 further back for boys, depending on your source.

and title ix doesn't affect anything, unless a school is using the proportional prong. and almost none of them are.

Sixies will help grow the game.

tld!!! you hate sixes!!!

you'll be happy to know, i've joined you in this boycott, like... since forever. banned my sons from playing with their rec team when the local indoor facility invented it before usa lacrosse invented it. refused ricky's overtures when the pll circus came to town.

to sixes!!!

It is an equity valuation play…..but “the best players in the world” play it…. Can’t get any traction with box in the Olympics because that’s NLL and Canadian territory….

[pcowlax]

Nick Saban speaking before Congress yesterday. Starts at :28

I think people need to start separating sports. CFB is billion+ dollar business. You can say there is value to giving top recruits NIL money for football. Sports like lacrosse it is just doesnt really make sense and only adds another barrier to entry for a sport in need of expansion. You just have fans running amok and makign things worse.

that separation in some form is likely to be coming. when, how etc. we'll see. there will be a lot of consequences to that that aren't highly predictable. personally, don't see any "need" for expansion. the adage of "if you're not growing, you're one step away from decay" is always in play, but the landscape will probably be taking its form as it has in the past, as influenced by outside forces as much as or more than internal, anyway.

we still have ivies challenging. mid-tiers, even service academies, with opportunities. high skill level. investment in the sport. and warts. nil is a pimple. lacrosse is in a pretty good spot, all things considered.

Lacrosse needs expansion. I mean large state Universities. There are plenty of small private schools involved. You have Title 9 issues, but also money issues. Lacrosse doesnt make money. The only way it can is if viewership and attendance numbers increase. I obvioulsy love the sport, but it would be nice to not have to have like 7 apps to watch lacrosse games.

i get it that's your take, and i disagree. wholeheartedly. there were 700 people at a tosu game recently. we've had more at our high school for games. that's the sport outside of I95, apologies to denver. no hunting and gaming and friday night lights guy in alabama is watching lacrosse. the "need" is not there.

Kind of funny. OSU was 8th in average attendance in 2023 and that is your example. That was during a bad season
https://www.oceantooceanlacrosse.com/po ... e-rankings

here is how is looks on a per game basis. There is 1 Ivy that is top 10. 50% of the top 10 are large state Universities. Utah and Michigan are on the list, despite being very young programs with limited success


Per Game
1 Cuse 4232.11
2 Maryland 3908.13
3 Virginia 3473.89
4 ND 2217.43
5 Denver 2070.00
6 Hop 1933.40
7 Rutgers 1871.38
8 Osu 1814.43
9 Carolina 1795.22
10 Harvard 1720.17
11 navy 1643.44
12 Albany 1573.78
13 Duke 1514.89
14 Penn 1514.40
15 GT 1483.11
16 Army 1452.29
17 St Joespehs 1408.00
18 Loyola 1375.00
19 Princeton 1363.75
20 Michigan 1347.14
21 PSU 1315.71
22 Cornell 1231.86
23 Utah 1107.00
24 Yale 1044.33
25 delaware 947.27

you're highlighting attendance of 1,800 people. for a sport that might have 7 or 8 home games. and you'd like the next stage to be that lacrosse gets exclusive broadcast on 5 or 10 networks?

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

I don’t think that’s the right logic here. “Being big” = “doing more to grow the game” is problematic. And given both the small numbers and unique nature I don’t think this data tells you much that one can do something with. It’s problematic but some equal access system would be the best path to grow the game. Something better than the current AQ system unless we give up on
The myth that conferences have any value

Big is generally better for drawing eyeballs. You have fans at some of these big schools that will watch any event that their school is playing in. IF Texas, Oregon, or Florida start a new program it is likely to garner more attention than Lindenwood's jump. There are more variables than size, but you can not dismiss it. Conferences do have economic value. I dont think it is coincidence that the best funded conference in America has become a lacrosse power and seen 2 new lax only facilities built. The first need for expansion is an Athletic department with money. Not that I think expansion is imminent, but I would bet the next major program to join men's lacrosse will come from the Big 10. SEC would be my second choice, but not sure how that would work

What is conference roles once the colleges are licensed to professional for profit owners?

I’m not sure if it would a conference per se, but if those for profit owners want to maximize their profits, they want to sell as many seats and pull as big a ratings as possible. College football, while massively popular nationally, is in terms of fandom still a regional sport. Michigan fans want to watch them play Ohio St, and Michigan St. and Penn St. and Iowa, etc. Definitely true for SEC. If there were no conferences, many teams would continue to play most of their games vs the same teams they do now (assuming those teams were all in the new “D1A”). They would mix in other national high profile games as they do now but Alabama is not going to have a schedule of Georgia, Texas, Michigan, Ohio St., Clemson, Oregon, Washington, FSU and USC, both for travel and rivalry/fan nostalgia reasons. Regional teams will still clump in terms of who they play most often.

[SCLaxAttack]

You highlighted OSU as a school that doesnt get attract people to watch home games. I was showing you that they were top 10 during a bad season. The numbers are bad across the board, but places like OSU, Utah, and Michigan are doing more to grow the game than the Ivies. I'll root for all of them to have success, because that is good for the game.

coda,
having top attendance teams bring in fewer than 2k fans shows the state of play. i noted tosu as they are an absolutely humongous state school as u mentioned, and 700 in isolation, or 1,800 in toto reflects that.

viewership for the sport, between some big international games, to playoff games, even to the pll is way up. good, even though softball still dwarfs it. any success in popularity, also good. never said otherwise. the sport itself hasn't grown in the last 5 years re: participation. so we'll see whether it joins the list of almost all other sports except for bowling.

to me, that's fine and maybe inevitable, tho i'd like to see some modicum of grass roots growth return. but that'll come imo from other avenues than a bunch of big state universities signing on (which is more than a little unlikely, anyway). we have a lot of games on teevee. division 3 fanatics can watch a lot of the contenders play regularly. some pretty organized college club programs and leagues are options for other players/students. ivies and mid-majors can contend. i commented bc of the notion that we "need" expansion. understand that's your opinion about it, and valid as your thought. but to me, we're in a pretty good place. with some warts.


as far as nil goes, it's baked in the cake for now. we'll see how it bleeds once football and hoops sort it out.

The 1800 is not a large absolute number, but it does rank 8th among lacrosse programs. That is telling, especially considering the location and lack of tradition. My argument is that lacrosse is basically considered an east coast sport. That is where the fans are coming from. The growth will come from places like Texas, California, Florida, and the Midwest. That is where the growth is. It would be great to have major universities playing lax in all those areas.

tx, cali and florida, yes.... have had that growth. and no big state u teams to be found. not a coincidence.

much more important (like 100 or 1000x) is that the next generation of ex-laxers that start pushing out puppies, which are in far greater number than the previous generation, take that experience and build locally, wherever they are. it'll be hard enough to maintain much less grow substantially in this day and age of single-sport emphasis, elite travel club mania, screen time dominance and distractions.

and maybe take heed of some of the sideline behavior they endured and don't want to see repeated by adults.

RE: the highlighted text, I’d be interested in anyone’s comments on how Duke, UNC, and even NCState picked up the sport when they did, particularly since I assume there wasn’t a lot of high school lax being played in RTP at the time.

[justanotherperson]

Interesting discussion and I see validity to many of the points so far.

I do think large university participation will be necessary for growth as people who have no ties to the sport will likely be more intrigued by a big school matchup then some of the small schools, some of which have recently joined and ill be honest, have never heard of some of those schools until they moved up to D1. The larger schools may give some "cred" to the sport to the lay public. But growing the sport from the top-down is by no means, a solution to this problem

As much as I love the sport, to me,in the eyes of the public, lacrosse will always remain a "niche" sport until it changes the perception (sixes and olympics may help) that is just a niche sport. I think to the general public who know nothing about the sport, it is close to Crew, squash and water polo then it is to baseball, football, hockey and basketball. The cost of play is not cheap and there are both monetary and societal barriers to entry to the sport

I think it was coda who said that it need to be grown from grass roots which I agree with and say the grass roots starts even earlier. If lacrosse doesnt command the attention of youth, it will never grow beyond what it is now and likely the reason why growth has flattened since 2018. There are many reasons for this beyond cost but I do believe the current club system as well as the migration from public --> to private schools is more exclusionary than inclusionary and the attrition of kids who were once interested in the sport is alarming as they continue to age in this current club system that is in place now. So fixing this at the college level is trying to get the tail to wag the dog.

Great topic and discussions. With regards to NIL itself, to me, it has very little relevance to lacrosse, imho. I see kids trying to maximize their lax NIL, which is non existent. I keep looking for evidence that there is big money in lax NIL but all of it is anecdotal (eg Spallina's??) but people seem to be caught up in the NIL craze, which has forced Saban and others out of the business

[wgdsr]

tx, cali and florida, yes.... have had that growth. and no big state u teams to be found. not a coincidence.

RE: the highlighted text, I’d be interested in anyone’s comments on how Duke, UNC, and even NCState picked up the sport when they did, particularly since I assume there wasn’t a lot of high school lax being played in RTP at the time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Bl ... s_lacrosse
it's wiki and all, but gives the timeline. duke (and unc in 1937) starts a club program in 1938. pretty organized including with all the acc schools that are playing. guessing uva and ga tech, maybe others. 1954 newly formed acc sanctions lacrosse. there is a trove of boxes evidently at the rubenstein library that can be checked in on of clippings, press guides, etc.

more interesting maybe... nc state rise and fall:
https://www.collegecrosse.com/2011/6/7/ ... e-wolfpack
col robert conroy wants a club lax team and school obliges. then elevates it to varsity the next year!!! stan cockerton happens, a run for a couple years, and then it's over. early 80's wasn't exactly boom time for the economy.
some of the same info but some other details:
https://lacrossebucket.com/2020/06/18/t ... sse-field/

anecdotal: what i got from jimmy v when he was assoc a.d. (& coach) and getting a pre-game cig in the hallway... he loved lacrosse, wanted to bring it back, but "issues". i asked if one of those was (beyond citing costs and losing $$ in the articles) trashing the dorm/hotel/building they were housed in at the time, which i had heard, he smiled and said they were good guys. read: confirmed.

[oldbartman]

Does anyone have an idea, or better yet real info, on how much top players in men's D I lacrosse are making from NIL?

[coda]

Does anyone have an idea, or better yet real info, on how much top players in men's D I lacrosse are making from NIL?

I dont think there is any legit sources. I can say the rumor on Ierlan was full ride and 50k in NIL, but that is just whispers in the dark..

[44WeWantMore]

If true, this confirms what I wrote on the Ivy Thread. In Varsity Blues, people were paying hundreds of thousands to get into Southern Cal. So, the value of a $50K NIL deal is pretty minor, especially compared to the value of an almost-guaranteed admission to a top college, where I was told by a pretty big donor that it takes seven figures to even get admissions to take a second look at a qualified, but not exceptional, applicant at a highly competitive, but non-Ivy, school.

Now, for all I know, big-time football and basketball players may already be making seven figures in NIL.

[coda]

If true, this confirms what I wrote on the Ivy Thread. In Varsity Blues, people were paying hundreds of thousands to get into Southern Cal. So, the value of a $50K NIL deal is pretty minor, especially compared to the value of an almost-guaranteed admission to a top college, where I was told by a pretty big donor that it takes seven figures to even get admissions to take a second look at a qualified, but not exceptional, applicant at a highly competitive, but non-Ivy, school.

Now, for all I know, big-time football and basketball players may already be making seven figures in NIL.

You have to put it on a scale. Google says PLL players average 35k. Median salary in the NFL is 860K. It only makes sense that football and basketball money would be much higher. They are far more recognizable and their benefit to a school is much more valuable.

[steel_hop]

Now, for all I know, big-time football and basketball players may already be making seven figures in NIL.

Um....the answer is yes. Here is Caleb Williams condo in LA...https://twitter.com/TrojanFBx/status/17 ... heisman%2F

Top 10 NIL deals in football
https://draftwire.usatoday.com/lists/sh ... h-manning/

Not sure some of the "donors" got their moneys worth on some of those deals.

[coda]

Now, for all I know, big-time football and basketball players may already be making seven figures in NIL.

Um....the answer is yes. Here is Caleb Williams condo in LA...https://twitter.com/TrojanFBx/status/17 ... heisman%2F

Top 10 NIL deals in football
https://draftwire.usatoday.com/lists/sh ... h-manning/

Not sure some of the "donors" got their moneys worth on some of those deals.

those are estimates, they are not hard data. That is the issue with NIL, lots of BS surrounding it.

[AreaLax]

the IL D-Fly and Dixie Podcast from february 9th with Mark Koesterer goes into great detail about NIL and its impact and future.