"The Deep State" aka the American Intelligence Community

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MDlaxfan76
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

HooDat wrote:There are so many very real and dangerous problems with the op-ed I am not sure where to begin.

If it is real (let's not forget that the NYT has won Pulitzer's for completely fabricated stories) the writer is neither a hero nor a patriot.

If it is real, the writer has broken ranks - for what purpose? An immature need for self-congratulations?

If the writer is real, why would you be going to all that effort and then out yourself for no reason? What do you accomplish?

The part that is in fact treasonous is this:
So we will do what we can to steer the administration in the right direction until — one way or another — it’s over.
it all but calls for the assassination of the president of the US.

IF the writer has taken a "vow" - well, they just broke it....
That is why many Trump appointees have vowed to do what we can to preserve our democratic institutions while thwarting Mr. Trump’s more misguided impulses until he is out of office.
If the writer were a) intelligent, and b) a true patriot seeking what is best for the country, they would resign their position and go public with everything they have seen. They now have no remaining ability to continue to influence the president (if it existed in the first place) nor do any of the fellow conspirators. And the American people are left with nothing but empty innuendo and accusations.

I don't care what side of the aisle you are on, this op-ed should really concern any rational person. In fact it should terrify any supporter of our representative government.
It is indeed an extraordinary statement. And IF, as IMO may be reasonably assumed, it is true, it's also quite amazing that the degree of concern among those hired/appointed by Trump about his fitness as POTUS is so high that they would take such extraordinary actions. It's not a surprise to those of us who would never have voted for him or worked for him, but we're talking, apparently, about lots and lots of people who Trump himself hired making this call that he's unstable and untrustworthy.

But hyperbole like 'coup'd'etat' and 'assassination' and treason are not helpful to understanding what's been happening to date.

For the record, "The constitution of the United States, art. 3, s. 3, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war (q.v.) against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort."

This ain't "treason" under the legal definition. It's also clear that the 'treachery', if one was to call it such, is not against the United States or the Constitution which presumably Anonymous has sworn to uphold, but is rather to protect the same against the actions of the occupant of the Oval Office in a deranged state.

Anonymous most certainly was not calling for "assassination", but he/she is clearly predicting that the Trump era will come to an end. There are at least 4 possibilities. The first and most normal would be for the election in 2020 in which Trump lost, the second would be that he resigns for whatever personal reasons or pressures as he may decide justify resignation, the third is impeachment and the fourth is an Article 25 action. None of those are "assassinations" or "coup d'etats".

That all said, I tend to agree with the many commentators, on all sides of the political spectrum, who think that Anonymous and the rest of the crew involved would do the most good for the country if they were to stand up and be counted in the open.

But I do understand why they may be worried that their replacements will not protect the country as they believe they are doing...essentially concerned that the putsch would result in far greater damage.

But we'll eventually find out...
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

MDlaxfan76 wrote:
HooDat wrote:There are so many very real and dangerous problems with the op-ed I am not sure where to begin.

If it is real (let's not forget that the NYT has won Pulitzer's for completely fabricated stories) the writer is neither a hero nor a patriot.

If it is real, the writer has broken ranks - for what purpose? An immature need for self-congratulations?

If the writer is real, why would you be going to all that effort and then out yourself for no reason? What do you accomplish?

The part that is in fact treasonous is this:
So we will do what we can to steer the administration in the right direction until — one way or another — it’s over.
it all but calls for the assassination of the president of the US.

IF the writer has taken a "vow" - well, they just broke it....
That is why many Trump appointees have vowed to do what we can to preserve our democratic institutions while thwarting Mr. Trump’s more misguided impulses until he is out of office.
If the writer were a) intelligent, and b) a true patriot seeking what is best for the country, they would resign their position and go public with everything they have seen. They now have no remaining ability to continue to influence the president (if it existed in the first place) nor do any of the fellow conspirators. And the American people are left with nothing but empty innuendo and accusations.

I don't care what side of the aisle you are on, this op-ed should really concern any rational person. In fact it should terrify any supporter of our representative government.
It is indeed an extraordinary statement. And IF, as IMO may be reasonably assumed, it is true, it's also quite amazing that the degree of concern among those hired/appointed by Trump about his fitness as POTUS is so high that they would take such extraordinary actions. It's not a surprise to those of us who would never have voted for him or worked for him, but we're talking, apparently, about lots and lots of people who Trump himself hired making this call that he's unstable and untrustworthy.

But hyperbole like 'coup'd'etat' and 'assassination' and treason are not helpful to understanding what's been happening to date.

For the record, "The constitution of the United States, art. 3, s. 3, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war (q.v.) against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort."

This ain't "treason" under the legal definition. It's also clear that the 'treachery', if one was to call it such, is not against the United States or the Constitution which presumably Anonymous has sworn to uphold, but is rather to protect the same against the actions of the occupant of the Oval Office in a deranged state.

Anonymous most certainly was not calling for "assassination", but he/she is clearly predicting that the Trump era will come to an end. There are at least 4 possibilities. The first and most normal would be for the election in 2020 in which Trump lost, the second would be that he resigns for whatever personal reasons or pressures as he may decide justify resignation, the third is impeachment and the fourth is an Article 25 action. None of those are "assassinations" or "coup d'etats".

That all said, I tend to agree with the many commentators, on all sides of the political spectrum, who think that Anonymous and the rest of the crew involved would do the most good for the country if they were to stand up and be counted in the open.

But I do understand why they may be worried that their replacements will not protect the country as they believe they are doing...essentially concerned that the putsch would result in far greater damage.

But we'll eventually find out...
None of this is surprising to anyone that knows Trump or has followed him closely for decades. His tv personality was just that...a tv personality. Guy is in so far over his head it's hard to believe. The President of the United States watches 7 to 9 hours of tv a day.....think about it.
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ChairmanOfTheBoard
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by ChairmanOfTheBoard »

to me this will make it all the more crazy IF this guy actually wins another election.
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ggait
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by ggait »

Trump is sui generis and pretty far out there. I don't think anyone really knows how to deal with him -- not Democrats, not Republicans, not the media, not the people working for him.

Maybe you should ignore him. Maybe you should quit your job and make a noisy withdrawal. Maybe you should stay put in your job and try to keep him between the white lines. Maybe you need to leak to the tv/press to get through to him (since that's what he pays attention to). Maybe you need to tongue bath him first to get him to do what you want/need him to do. Maybe you need to steal papers off his desk. Maybe all of the above are required.

Anonymous isn't a traitor or a hero. He's just some guy who is as flummoxed by Trump as anyone else. I can't blame him for giving the NYT op-ed thing a try. Worth a shot. It might not work. But what is the guaranteed best way to deal with Trump?
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

ggait wrote:Trump is sui generis and pretty far out there. I don't think anyone really knows how to deal with him -- not Democrats, not Republicans, not the media, not the people working for him.

Maybe you should ignore him. Maybe you should quit your job and make a noisy withdrawal. Maybe you should stay put in your job and try to keep him between the white lines. Maybe you need to leak to the tv/press to get through to him (since that's what he pays attention to). Maybe you need to tongue bath him first to get him to do what you want/need him to do. Maybe you need to steal papers off his desk. Maybe all of the above are required.

Anonymous isn't a traitor or a hero. He's just some guy who is as flummoxed by Trump as anyone else. I can't blame him for giving the NYT op-ed thing a try. Worth a shot. It might not work. But what is the guaranteed best way to deal with Trump?
Give him the remote control and some TV sets and then explain what he really meant whenever he says something stupid.



I would pay $10k to see Trump grilled by a Mueller prosecutor.
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ggait
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by ggait »

Hard for me to see any meaningful difference between Mr. Anonymous and the multitudes of Trump staffers (present and former) who have said the exact same things about Trump many times before.

They've been doing it on a daily basis with reporters from dozens of print and broadcast outlets since the inauguration. A boatload of them talked to Michael Wolff for Fire and Fury. Several boatloads talked to Bob Woodward for his book. They all knew it all was going to be publicly disclosed when they opened their mouths.

So the only noteworthy things are (i) how many people feel the need to trash Trump, and (ii) how consistent all their stories are.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

ggait wrote:Hard for me to see any meaningful difference between Mr. Anonymous and the multitudes of Trump staffers (present and former) who have said the exact same things about Trump many times before.

They've been doing it on a daily basis with reporters from dozens of print and broadcast outlets since the inauguration. A boatload of them talked to Michael Wolff for Fire and Fury. Several boatloads talked to Bob Woodward for his book. They all knew it all was going to be publicly disclosed when they opened their mouths.

So the only noteworthy things are (i) how many people feel the need to trash Trump, and (ii) how consistent all their stories are.
Yep..... I didn't bother reading the op-ed piece. That's how far we have fallen... someone mentioned Trump has never held a position where he could be fired.
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by frmanfan »

This is a brilliant coup script. Netflix movie to follow.

The Deep State, with the help of the NYT and assorted others, concocts this anonymous Op-Ed story.

In late November, after the mid-terms and the takeover of the House by the Ds, they announce that Pence was the author.

Pence is forced to resign.

Trump nominates new VP, but House refuses to hold hearings and vote, office remains vacant.

Dem House impeaches Trump, Ds and establishment Rs in Senate make deal to get 2/3 vote, oust Trump.

Pelosi becomes POTUS.

Obama nominated as VP and assumes position.

Pelosi resigns, Obama takes over (again).

This is constituionally possible (although sure to be legally argued over).

Alternate ending: Pelosi nominates HRC. :shock:
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by dislaxxic »

ggait wrote:Maybe you need to tongue bath him first...
Thanks alot...i can't unthink that phrase now... JEEBUS, gg!

Image

TAKE THAT!! :shock:

..
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by dislaxxic »

"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
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HooDat
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by HooDat »

dislaxxic wrote:Perhaps hoo and his compadres consider the author a patriot? After all, he/she is attempting to "protect the Republic" IF it's not a hoax, of course...

..
not sure what you are getting at with this statement dis, but your lame attempts at personal attacks are getting tiresome.

What I find interesting in all the discussions of the op-ed is that no one who seems supportive of the writer can come forward with a defense that says anything other than: "it sure rings true with other things we hear about this president".

Yes it does. And no, I am not defending Trump here. At times I do, at times I hold him to task. The guy is an ass, a buffoon, a boor and so far a completely ineffectual president. He has done half of what he could and virtually none of what he promised.

But in everyone's rush to throw vegetables at Trump, they are running right past some very unsettling precedents that are being set. The ends do not always justify the means.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

HooDat wrote:
dislaxxic wrote:Perhaps hoo and his compadres consider the author a patriot? After all, he/she is attempting to "protect the Republic" IF it's not a hoax, of course...

..
not sure what you are getting at with this statement dis, but your lame attempts at personal attacks are getting tiresome.

What I find interesting in all the discussions of the op-ed is that no one who seems supportive of the writer can come forward with a defense that says anything other than: "it sure rings true with other things we hear about this president".

Yes it does. And no, I am not defending Trump here. At times I do, at times I hold him to task. The guy is an ass, a buffoon, a boor and so far a completely ineffectual president. He has done half of what he could and virtually none of what he promised.

But in everyone's rush to throw vegetables at Trump, they are running right past some very unsettling precedents that are being set. The ends do not always justify the means.
Trump is less of a problem than Congress. Congress is performing as if they have a substitute teacher in the white house and congress will do anything to keep the substitute teacher there as they can get away with almost anything........ they don't want someone that will challenge them in the Whitehouse.
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by dislaxxic »

"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by dislaxxic »

Trump’s Latest Attack on the FBI Is Probably Bogus

"On Monday, Rep. Mark Meadows (R-N.C.) released some big news that, he suggested, undercut the FBI’s investigation into the Trump campaign’s contacts with Russia. Meadows announced that Peter Strzok—the FBI agent recently fired over his anti-Trump text messages—had mentioned a “media leak strategy” in an April 10, 2017, text message to Lisa Page, a former bureau attorney.

Meadows, a top congressional backer of President Donald Trump, said in a letter to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein that the texts suggest a “coordinated effort” by the FBI and the Justice Department to “release information in the public domain potentially harmful” to the Trump Administration. Right-leaning media outlets, including Fox News, quickly jumped on the story. Trump tweeted about it Tuesday morning. “So terrible, and NOTHING is being done at DOJ or FBI,” the president wrote.

Meadows’ claim, however, may rely on major misinterpretation. Strzok and Page were actually discussing the administration’s strategy for stopping leaks, not plotting to cause leaks, according to Strzok’s lawyer and Democratic lawmakers. “The term ‘media leak strategy’ in Mr. Strzok’s text refers to a Department-wide initiative to detect and stop leaks to the media,” Strzok’s lawyer, Aitan Goelman, said in a statement Tuesday. “The President and his enablers are once again peddling unfounded conspiracy theories to mislead the American People.”


..
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by dislaxxic »

Trump’s big dump of classified FBI documents: More fuel for right-wing conspiracy theory

The impact of such brazenly partisan tactics can't really be judged yet, can it? The willingness of future CinC's to vilify the media and the IC may well be the worst thing (of many) this president is doing to our nation.

Selective release of FISA materials and IC internal texts and emails serves...WHAT purpose again? "Proving" the Witch Hunt theory of federal investigations?? (So MANY witches have pled guilty or been convicted already, with more likely to come)

Greg Sargent at the WaPo perhaps says it best...

"Regardless of the facts, these situations allow Trump and his allies to exploit deep structural imbalances in our discourse and political media. Even if the new release debunks Trumpworld’s narrative, they will lie relentlessly in bad faith to the contrary, and madly cherry-pick from the new information to make their case. And they can count on assistance from a massive right-wing media infrastructure that will faithfully blare forth this narrative — even as the major news organizations adopt a much more careful approach that treats the interpretation of the new information as a matter for legitimate dispute, thus putting good-faith analysis and bad-faith propaganda on equal footing."

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by tech37 »

So how come none of you progressive "resistance"-type people, who live and breathe according to NYT reporting, didn't post this article? "Fake news" this time?...doesn't fit the "resistance" narrative?

I've never used the term "deep state" but If this is accurate, it is the epitome of what I believe is meant by "deep state."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/21/us/p ... dment.html

Release the unredacted documents!
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by a fan »

This is the opposite of what you, RR, and FoxNation (sorry to lump you in) mean by Deep State.

What Deep State meant when it was coined are folks that are high level career bureaucrats-----all either liberal Hillary fans or "never Trumpers".

What's funny, and what was pointed out by yours truly on Laxpower, was that we have no clue who is leaking or undermining Trump....and it has now turned out that the Deep State are all people either working in the White House, or were appointed by Trumpy himself.

In other words, the rest of DC hasn't had to lift a finger to stick it to Trump....Trump's own people are the "Deep State". Sorry, but this is NOT what has been sold as the Deep State over the last couple of years.

Both funny and sad at the same time.

Also both reassuring and scary that it's a coup d'etat happening in the plain light of day.
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

a fan wrote:This is the opposite of what you, RR, and FoxNation (sorry to lump you in) mean by Deep State.

What Deep State meant when it was coined are folks that are high level career bureaucrats-----all either liberal Hillary fans or "never Trumpers".

What's funny, and what was pointed out by yours truly on Laxpower, was that we have no clue who is leaking or undermining Trump....and it has now turned out that the Deep State are all people either working in the White House, or were appointed by Trumpy himself.

In other words, the rest of DC hasn't had to lift a finger to stick it to Trump....Trump's own people are the "Deep State". Sorry, but this is NOT what has been sold as the Deep State over the last couple of years.

Both funny and sad at the same time.

Also both reassuring and scary that it's a coup d'etat happening in the plain light of day.
Yep...just as scary are Russia installing their guy right in front of our eyes. I posted that in July 2016....We are asleep at the switch.
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tech37
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by tech37 »

a fan wrote:This is the opposite of what you, RR, and FoxNation (sorry to lump you in) mean by Deep State. What Deep State meant when it was coined are folks that are high level career bureaucrats-----all either liberal Hillary fans or "never Trumpers".
What possesses you to constantly bring other people and FoxNews into your post replies? My post had nothing to do with FoxNews and are my thoughts alone. As stated, I never used the term "deep state." By labeling or grouping posters with a broad stroke, in your mind somehow proves your point?

And I disagree with your personal definition of "deep state," that's way too simple a fan. Many of the bad actors are either fired or have resigned... but how can you honestly believe that the culture that unfolded at DOJ/FBI during eight years of Obama is completely gone? That's just naive.
Last edited by tech37 on Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
tech37
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Re: The Deep State - aka "Intelligence" Community

Post by tech37 »

Typical Lax Dad wrote:
a fan wrote:This is the opposite of what you, RR, and FoxNation (sorry to lump you in) mean by Deep State.

What Deep State meant when it was coined are folks that are high level career bureaucrats-----all either liberal Hillary fans or "never Trumpers".

What's funny, and what was pointed out by yours truly on Laxpower, was that we have no clue who is leaking or undermining Trump....and it has now turned out that the Deep State are all people either working in the White House, or were appointed by Trumpy himself.

In other words, the rest of DC hasn't had to lift a finger to stick it to Trump....Trump's own people are the "Deep State". Sorry, but this is NOT what has been sold as the Deep State over the last couple of years.

Both funny and sad at the same time.

Also both reassuring and scary that it's a coup d'etat happening in the plain light of day.
Yep...just as scary are Russia installing their guy right in front of our eyes. I posted that in July 2016....We are asleep at the switch.
Not sure I'd boast that July 2016 post...wrong now and wrong then.
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