Re: Recruiting, the exact science
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:59 pm
Have you looked at high school to college football? Pros are trying to get that last 3-4% differential in improvement.
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Have you looked at high school to college football? Pros are trying to get that last 3-4% differential in improvement.
There is no exact science in recruiting….but there is one thing for sure, I don’t like kids playing down 2 years. People wonder why so many “5 Stars” don’t get much better in college…. If it’s relatively close, I am talking the younger player every time. Just saw the starting tailback for Wisconsin is an 18 year old SOPHOMORE…. I likeyInsiderRoll wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:36 pm If anyone figures out the exact science on recruiting I’d encourage you to write a book… you’ll be a millionaire.
There’s a great book called 4th and Goal Everyday. It takes a deep dive into Alabama recruiting and philosophical beliefs that Saban has. The roots of his philosophy on recruiting started with his time as an assistant for Bill Parsells.
For a second I was like “wait what..”. Then realized…wgdsr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:06 pmand obviously, as said on another thread, the b1g money got them to the final four. that, and i guess grass roots recruiting, culture and dedication. not transfers.Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:01 pm It is odd that this was started by a Rutgers fan holding them up as the example compared with a lot of other programs are better examples of outrecruiting the rankings. This goes back to at Laxpower when Denver & Loyola won titles a decade ago, Peter Baum hit the circuit and really back to the run Tambroni had from around 03 or so until he left for PSU at Cornell.
This thread was started by the father of a Rutgers player who he named as an underrated recruit. He would know. His kid is awesome btw.Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:01 pm It is odd that this was started by a Rutgers fan holding them up as the example compared with a lot of other programs are better examples of outrecruiting the rankings. This goes back to at Laxpower when Denver & Loyola won titles a decade ago, Peter Baum hit the circuit and really back to the run Tambroni had from around 03 or so until he left for PSU at Cornell.
Jules is a good example. After my son’s freshman year in college, he played a Summer tournament on a team with kids in his class from Brown, Hopkins and Rutgers. I asked him how it went and he said “the Rutgers players are better than the Hopkins players”… he was right in many ways. He said the Hopkins players were the worst. It stuck with me as years rolled on.livelovelax wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:21 am For the last 6-7 years that I have followed the recruiting experts and their rankings, schools like Duke, UVA, UNC, ND, Penn, Princeton, etc. get mostly 4 and 5 star recruits. A school like Rutgers, never gets these can't miss players. Never. How is it that they are in the mix with kids that don't get ranked especially the last two years? And please don't say transfer portal, cause many of these players were not 4 or 5 stars either. High level players like Ross Scott, Shane Knobloch and Ethan Rall were under recruited kids.
Being a recruiting guru is like being a weather forecaster.
Well not right in that many ways: While your son was in school, Rutgers was 2-3 against Hopkins with 0 playoff bids while Hopkins made the quarterfinals twice with one Final Four appearance. Maybe he was playing with the wrong guys?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:59 pmJules is a good example. After my son’s freshman year in college, he played a Summer tournament on a team with kids in his class from Brown, Hopkins and Rutgers. I asked him how it went and he said “the Rutgers players are better than the Hopkins players”… he was right in many ways. He said the Hopkins players were the worst. It stuck with me as years rolled on.livelovelax wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:21 am For the last 6-7 years that I have followed the recruiting experts and their rankings, schools like Duke, UVA, UNC, ND, Penn, Princeton, etc. get mostly 4 and 5 star recruits. A school like Rutgers, never gets these can't miss players. Never. How is it that they are in the mix with kids that don't get ranked especially the last two years? And please don't say transfer portal, cause many of these players were not 4 or 5 stars either. High level players like Ross Scott, Shane Knobloch and Ethan Rall were under recruited kids.
Being a recruiting guru is like being a weather forecaster.
It was a comment about the kids in that class (coming off their freshman year). Shack and Joel didn’t play. I was surprised by the comment but it turned out not to be too far off. To be honest, I always felt that 2015 Hopkins team was a good team and it slipped each subsequent year. What do you think of the 2015 team versus the 2016 to 2019 teams? I don’t know what the record says it’s just my on the field impression that the 2015 team had better players and more depth. I saw Rutgers play Duke in 2012. Rutgers put up a fight but it was two different levels. Rutgers has closed the gap on a lot of programs. Times have changed.HopFan16 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:06 pmWell not right in that many ways: While your son was in school, Rutgers was 2-3 against Hopkins with 0 playoff bids while Hopkins made the quarterfinals twice with one Final Four appearance. Maybe he was playing with the wrong guys?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:59 pmJules is a good example. After my son’s freshman year in college, he played a Summer tournament on a team with kids in his class from Brown, Hopkins and Rutgers. I asked him how it went and he said “the Rutgers players are better than the Hopkins players”… he was right in many ways. He said the Hopkins players were the worst. It stuck with me as years rolled on.livelovelax wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:21 am For the last 6-7 years that I have followed the recruiting experts and their rankings, schools like Duke, UVA, UNC, ND, Penn, Princeton, etc. get mostly 4 and 5 star recruits. A school like Rutgers, never gets these can't miss players. Never. How is it that they are in the mix with kids that don't get ranked especially the last two years? And please don't say transfer portal, cause many of these players were not 4 or 5 stars either. High level players like Ross Scott, Shane Knobloch and Ethan Rall were under recruited kids.
Being a recruiting guru is like being a weather forecaster.
There it is!Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:46 pm There is no exact science in recruiting….but there is one thing for sure, I don’t like kids playing down 2 years. People wonder why so many “5 Stars” don’t get much better in college…. If it’s relatively close, I am talking the younger player every time. Just saw the starting tailback for Wisconsin is an 18 year old SOPHOMORE…. I likey
lacrosse is quite a ways from this going downhill to younger ages. if anything, it's worse now than ever, and maybe by a good amount.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:46 pmThere is no exact science in recruiting….but there is one thing for sure, I don’t like kids playing down 2 years. People wonder why so many “5 Stars” don’t get much better in college…. If it’s relatively close, I am talking the younger player every time. Just saw the starting tailback for Wisconsin is an 18 year old SOPHOMORE…. I likeyInsiderRoll wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:36 pm If anyone figures out the exact science on recruiting I’d encourage you to write a book… you’ll be a millionaire.
There’s a great book called 4th and Goal Everyday. It takes a deep dive into Alabama recruiting and philosophical beliefs that Saban has. The roots of his philosophy on recruiting started with his time as an assistant for Bill Parsells.
Yep…. In basketball, you get good by playing older players…not younger. Lacrosse has indeed gotten worse. Some of these top 50 players were originally 2022s.wgdsr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:14 pmlacrosse is quite a ways from this going downhill to younger ages. if anything, it's worse now than ever, and maybe by a good amount.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:46 pmThere is no exact science in recruiting….but there is one thing for sure, I don’t like kids playing down 2 years. People wonder why so many “5 Stars” don’t get much better in college…. If it’s relatively close, I am talking the younger player every time. Just saw the starting tailback for Wisconsin is an 18 year old SOPHOMORE…. I likeyInsiderRoll wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:36 pm If anyone figures out the exact science on recruiting I’d encourage you to write a book… you’ll be a millionaire.
There’s a great book called 4th and Goal Everyday. It takes a deep dive into Alabama recruiting and philosophical beliefs that Saban has. The roots of his philosophy on recruiting started with his time as an assistant for Bill Parsells.
the top hoops and football players want to get going as soon as possible. quicker they're in, sooner they're out
and in lax, it bleeds down to all levels as well.
First, just say this is another 'Rutgers is disrespected thread and its us against the world', rather than a recruiting science discussion.livelovelax wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:21 am For the last 6-7 years that I have followed the recruiting experts and their rankings, schools like Duke, UVA, UNC, ND, Penn, Princeton, etc. get mostly 4 and 5 star recruits. A school like Rutgers, never gets these can't miss players. Never. How is it that they are in the mix with kids that don't get ranked especially the last two years? And please don't say transfer portal, cause many of these players were not 4 or 5 stars either. High level players like Ross Scott, Shane Knobloch and Ethan Rall were under recruited kids.
Being a recruiting guru is like being a weather forecaster.
Eh, I hope Rutgers continues to do well, transfer portal and all. What about our reigning champs? Wisnauskas, Khan, Murphy, Donville, all transfers. How many points did they contribute last season? What are you going to say if Georgetown and/or Notre Dame make the finals this spring? If you’re not maximizing the transfer portal as a coach right now you’re not doing your job. Counter point to that is the Ivy League who seem to be getting it done without that assistance.
I am not sure that RU will ever be a destination spot for top-ranked kids but being around recruiting for a while you notice that there are only a few people doing any sort of rankings and a massive number of kids go unranked. it does not mean that they are bad it just means that there are not a lot of people doing honest evaluations, partly because there are so many events but also because there is a fee-based evaluation system. I was told that Knobloch was going to be very good from a coach who played against him. Look at CJ Kirst Probably the best freshman in the country and it maybe matches his HS ranking but, Connor and Colin were not ranked very high if at all.livelovelax wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:21 am For the last 6-7 years that I have followed the recruiting experts and their rankings, schools like Duke, UVA, UNC, ND, Penn, Princeton, etc. get mostly 4 and 5 star recruits. A school like Rutgers, never gets these can't miss players. Never. How is it that they are in the mix with kids that don't get ranked especially the last two years? And please don't say transfer portal, cause many of these players were not 4 or 5 stars either. High level players like Ross Scott, Shane Knobloch and Ethan Rall were under recruited kids.
Being a recruiting guru is like being a weather forecaster.
Maybe a school like Rutgers searches for these intangibles (at least this would be the kind of traits I would look for in my recruits):Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:59 pmJules is a good example. After my son’s freshman year in college, he played a Summer tournament on a team with kids in his class from Brown, Hopkins and Rutgers. I asked him how it went and he said “the Rutgers players are better than the Hopkins players”… he was right in many ways. He said the Hopkins players were the worst. It stuck with me as years rolled on.livelovelax wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:21 am For the last 6-7 years that I have followed the recruiting experts and their rankings, schools like Duke, UVA, UNC, ND, Penn, Princeton, etc. get mostly 4 and 5 star recruits. A school like Rutgers, never gets these can't miss players. Never. How is it that they are in the mix with kids that don't get ranked especially the last two years? And please don't say transfer portal, cause many of these players were not 4 or 5 stars either. High level players like Ross Scott, Shane Knobloch and Ethan Rall were under recruited kids.
Being a recruiting guru is like being a weather forecaster.
I hate to break it to you but Virginia’s list of the top players, and those of many other top Coaches, is certainly somewhat different from the Ty Xanders list. They may be similar for a handful of the very best players, but the top teams recruit to who they project has the most athleticism and potential in college. It is not an exact science and some work out but many stars don’t. That may not always include the same players stuffing the stat sheet in Summer play.InsiderRoll wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:55 am I think people need to know there’s a complete difference in being a great recruiter vs a great evaluator. They are two different skill sets and not always possessed by everyone.
When it comes to rankings… for the most part Ty just talks to college coaches and club coaches and sees who they are going to recruit. That’s why they don’t come out until right at Sept. 1. So when he here’s that UVA and Duke are going to call them they get bumped up the list. It’s not a comprehensive ranking.
Lastly, great evaluators have the ability to project how a players game can grow and translate to college. Being a great HS player with talent doesn’t mean you’ll have a successful college career. Then there’s the hardest piece of all, it’s projecting which kids can buy into your program fully as and 18-23 year old and commit to being an elite player. With all of the distractions in college that come up, there isn’t a coach in the world that can project that with 100% certainty. Basically, the kids personality will play a major role in how they develop.
Oh, and it doesnt matter if UVA has 50 5 stars, only 10 can be on the field at a time, so if Rutgers can put together 10 guys that can play at that level, then they can compete.
Yes. I had this conversation with a young player that hasn’t shown up on a list or an all star game. He was the first call for 2 schools. Committed now and he heard from two or three top 15 programs. Good player. Those lists are virtually meaningless. Some good players up and down it is about all that you can gather. The order is meaningless.blue angels wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:49 amI hate to break it to you but Virginia’s list of the top players, and those of many other top Coaches, is certainly somewhat different from the Ty Xanders list. They may be similar for a handful of the very best players, but the top teams recruit to who they project has the most athleticism and potential in college. It is not an exact science and some work out but many stars don’t. That may not always include the same players stuffing the stat sheet in Summer play.InsiderRoll wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:55 am I think people need to know there’s a complete difference in being a great recruiter vs a great evaluator. They are two different skill sets and not always possessed by everyone.
When it comes to rankings… for the most part Ty just talks to college coaches and club coaches and sees who they are going to recruit. That’s why they don’t come out until right at Sept. 1. So when he here’s that UVA and Duke are going to call them they get bumped up the list. It’s not a comprehensive ranking.
Lastly, great evaluators have the ability to project how a players game can grow and translate to college. Being a great HS player with talent doesn’t mean you’ll have a successful college career. Then there’s the hardest piece of all, it’s projecting which kids can buy into your program fully as and 18-23 year old and commit to being an elite player. With all of the distractions in college that come up, there isn’t a coach in the world that can project that with 100% certainty. Basically, the kids personality will play a major role in how they develop.
Oh, and it doesnt matter if UVA has 50 5 stars, only 10 can be on the field at a time, so if Rutgers can put together 10 guys that can play at that level, then they can compete.
We’re saying the same thing. I didn’t say it was a carbon copy. I said Ty does his research with club coaches and can to a certain degree line up his evaluations with projected calls. If there’s a kid that he thought was pretty good and he learns that ACC schools like him, he shoots up the “rankings”.blue angels wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:49 amI hate to break it to you but Virginia’s list of the top players, and those of many other top Coaches, is certainly somewhat different from the Ty Xanders list. They may be similar for a handful of the very best players, but the top teams recruit to who they project has the most athleticism and potential in college. It is not an exact science and some work out but many stars don’t. That may not always include the same players stuffing the stat sheet in Summer play.InsiderRoll wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:55 am I think people need to know there’s a complete difference in being a great recruiter vs a great evaluator. They are two different skill sets and not always possessed by everyone.
When it comes to rankings… for the most part Ty just talks to college coaches and club coaches and sees who they are going to recruit. That’s why they don’t come out until right at Sept. 1. So when he here’s that UVA and Duke are going to call them they get bumped up the list. It’s not a comprehensive ranking.
Lastly, great evaluators have the ability to project how a players game can grow and translate to college. Being a great HS player with talent doesn’t mean you’ll have a successful college career. Then there’s the hardest piece of all, it’s projecting which kids can buy into your program fully as and 18-23 year old and commit to being an elite player. With all of the distractions in college that come up, there isn’t a coach in the world that can project that with 100% certainty. Basically, the kids personality will play a major role in how they develop.
Oh, and it doesnt matter if UVA has 50 5 stars, only 10 can be on the field at a time, so if Rutgers can put together 10 guys that can play at that level, then they can compete.