MOUNT ST MARYS 2023

[redfoxalum]

Different program now. Theyll be right there w Richmond next year.

But I know you love making every case imaginable for the MAAC being at parity with the NEC. Dog doesn’t hunt to me but keep working on that angle.

If you think St. Joe's is a "different program now", bet you would've said Colgate "is a different program now" after making the quarterfinals and having a Tewaaraton winner. It's extremely hard for non ACC, B1G, Ivy, BE programs to maintain that high a level of success.

And by "every case imaginable" do you mean basic objective comparisons like head to head NCAA tournament play-in game results or RPI? They were absolutely comparable conferences. Stick to trading 80's D3 war stories, you aren't knowledgable about contemporary lacrosse or athletics administration.

[ReturnOfTheWAC]

4 winning seasons in the last 20 years is hard to defend as a good job. It is probably considered a good job to some and limited to others but its not like they haven't had some pretty talented players come through there over the last 10-12 years

[wgdsr]

Have you ever been to St Joes? Their basketball team hasn’t been nationally relevant in a long time. It’s a fine school with nice facilities but let’s not pretend MSM couldn’t reach their level of success.

Bryant is in an area almost as remote as the Mount, same thing fine school nice facilities.

The difference is Bryant had one of the greatest coaches of all time and St Joes has one of the best young coaches in the game. Either one could make MSM a perennial contender in the MAAC.

almost as remote? have you been to mt st mary's?

[xxxxxxx]

Have you ever been to St Joes? Their basketball team hasn’t been nationally relevant in a long time. It’s a fine school with nice facilities but let’s not pretend MSM couldn’t reach their level of success.

Bryant is in an area almost as remote as the Mount, same thing fine school nice facilities.

The difference is Bryant had one of the greatest coaches of all time and St Joes has one of the best young coaches in the game. Either one could make MSM a perennial contender in the MAAC.

almost as remote? have you been to mt st mary's?

Yes I have and Bryant too, I understand MSM is remote, but so are a lot of schools that have had "reasonable" success. All I am saying is there is no legitimate reason why MSM can't be as successful as St Joes or Bryant, and no reason why they can't be a regular contender in the MAAC. I have no dog in this fight and don't know anything about the coaching staff, but to act like they have no chance to be successful is absurd. In the last few years Manhattan, Monmouth, Marist, Canisius, Quinnipiac, and Detroit Mercy have all won MAAC Championships, if you think all those schools have big advantages over MSM then you should just give up and drop down to D3. The same goes for the NEC, they have what they need to compete in that league evidenced by winning the regular season in 2019.

[Farfromgeneva]

Stil don’t understand how the divisions work I see.

MSM will have a decent team every 4-5yrs built on senior leadership. By the end of the season not many who actually follow the NEC expected them to make it through to the AQ. It took Bart choking away a 7 gold Q3 lead to RoMo in order to get that insignificant reg season title but they just can’t build much depth occasionally have enough Junior and Seniors to compete in a season. I get that everyone looks up like I was make the case (to myself) that NEC is often comparable to AE and CAA but MSM was fine in the MAAC before and will be again. There’s a difference in conferences. It is what it is. Conflating the NEC and MAAC is specious.

[xxxxxxx]

Stil don’t understand how the divisions work I see.

MSM will have a decent team every 4-5yrs built on senior leadership. By the end of the season not many who actually follow the NEC expected them to make it through to the AQ. It took Bart choking away a 7 gold Q3 lead to RoMo in order to get that insignificant reg season title but they just can’t build much depth occasionally have enough Junior and Seniors to compete in a season. I get that everyone looks up like I was make the case (to myself) that NEC is often comparable to AE and CAA but MSM was fine in the MAAC before and will be again. There’s a difference in conferences. It is what it is. Conflating the NEC and MAAC is specious.

I don't really care how you view the NEC and MAAC, the fact is they are similar mid-major conferences. My point is that MSM should be able to compete in either of these conferences and has the resources to do so. Whether or not they have the coaching I don't know?

[kramerica.inc]

Stil don’t understand how the divisions work I see.

MSM will have a decent team every 4-5yrs built on senior leadership. By the end of the season not many who actually follow the NEC expected them to make it through to the AQ. It took Bart choking away a 7 gold Q3 lead to RoMo in order to get that insignificant reg season title but they just can’t build much depth occasionally have enough Junior and Seniors to compete in a season. I get that everyone looks up like I was make the case (to myself) that NEC is often comparable to AE and CAA but MSM was fine in the MAAC before and will be again. There’s a difference in conferences. It is what it is. Conflating the NEC and MAAC is specious.

I don't really care how you view the NEC and MAAC, the fact is they are similar mid-major conferences. My point is that MSM should be able to compete in either of these conferences and has the resources to do so. Whether or not they have the coaching I don't know?

+1

The reality is...for the good and bad, you know what you're getting with Gravante. He runs a clean, nondescript D1 program. The good (?) is that no one is beating down the door to hire him away. IF you find someone else, and IF they have a higher level of success, they would likely be out the door for greener pastures and you're looking to hire again. That's not something this administration wants to do. They are happy at locking in the cruise control just under the speed limit.

[Farfromgeneva]

So then what’s the point in asking the initial question? Because it was a question. If my kid refuses to be more risk averse at some point I stop asking if he’s going to be risk averse and look to build my expectations around those guardrails.

If you reread this same person who doesn’t care about conferences he’s asking for Gravante head based on this comment:

if you think all those schools have big advantages over MSM then you should just give up and drop down to D3.

kram, your comments are correct but you don’t foolishly think the school even has the option to drop to D3. See the difference? People keep thinking it has to be linear progression to some theoretical ideal (which Gravante has already accomplished by winning the MAAC multiple times and being in the NEC conference playoffs. Presenting these absurd binary options is goofy. He’s done it, he will do it again. It won’t be every year but until Mack and LIU, two premier D2 programs, showed up he was in the NEC playoffs most years. What worse are we talking about?

Every coach should be fired if they don’t win every year!

[Farfromgeneva]

Stil don’t understand how the divisions work I see.

MSM will have a decent team every 4-5yrs built on senior leadership. By the end of the season not many who actually follow the NEC expected them to make it through to the AQ. It took Bart choking away a 7 gold Q3 lead to RoMo in order to get that insignificant reg season title but they just can’t build much depth occasionally have enough Junior and Seniors to compete in a season. I get that everyone looks up like I was make the case (to myself) that NEC is often comparable to AE and CAA but MSM was fine in the MAAC before and will be again. There’s a difference in conferences. It is what it is. Conflating the NEC and MAAC is specious.

I don't really care how you view the NEC and MAAC, the fact is they are similar mid-major conferences. My point is that MSM should be able to compete in either of these conferences and has the resources to do so. Whether or not they have the coaching I don't know?

How don’t your know when you cited 2019 and I presented his relative success in the MAAC preciously on this thread?

And what’s the lint of saying just go d3 if not? So impractical. It’s the competition not the expectation of winning every year. Otherwise why would Hobart have f**kes around in D1 the past 25yrs while being consistently refused to be allowed to give athletic aid by the NCAA? I guess I’m just getting old because I learned to compete against myself first and foremost. And to have fun

[xxxxxxx]

Stil don’t understand how the divisions work I see.

MSM will have a decent team every 4-5yrs built on senior leadership. By the end of the season not many who actually follow the NEC expected them to make it through to the AQ. It took Bart choking away a 7 gold Q3 lead to RoMo in order to get that insignificant reg season title but they just can’t build much depth occasionally have enough Junior and Seniors to compete in a season. I get that everyone looks up like I was make the case (to myself) that NEC is often comparable to AE and CAA but MSM was fine in the MAAC before and will be again. There’s a difference in conferences. It is what it is. Conflating the NEC and MAAC is specious.

I don't really care how you view the NEC and MAAC, the fact is they are similar mid-major conferences. My point is that MSM should be able to compete in either of these conferences and has the resources to do so. Whether or not they have the coaching I don't know?

How don’t your know when you cited 2019 and I presented his relative success in the MAAC preciously on this thread?

And what’s the lint of saying just go d3 if not? So impractical. It’s the competition not the expectation of winning every year. Otherwise why would Hobart have f**kes around in D1 the past 25yrs while being consistently refused to be allowed to give athletic aid by the NCAA? I guess I’m just getting old because I learned to compete against myself first and foremost. And to have fun

you are definitely just getting old

[ReturnOfTheWAC]

So then what’s the point in asking the initial question? Because it was a question. If my kid refuses to be more risk averse at some point I stop asking if he’s going to be risk averse and look to build my expectations around those guardrails.

If you reread this same person who doesn’t care about conferences he’s asking for Gravante head based on this comment:

if you think all those schools have big advantages over MSM then you should just give up and drop down to D3.

kram, your comments are correct but you don’t foolishly think the school even has the option to drop to D3. See the difference? People keep thinking it has to be linear progression to some theoretical ideal (which Gravante has already accomplished by winning the MAAC multiple times and being in the NEC conference playoffs. Presenting these absurd binary options is goofy. He’s done it, he will do it again. It won’t be every year but until Mack and LIU, two premier D2 programs, showed up he was in the NEC playoffs most years. What worse are we talking about?

Every coach should be fired if they don’t win every year!

We get it your a Gravante supporter because you went to Hobart and your not gonna knock him. They have 4 winning seasons in 20 years, 2 of which are with arguably the schools best player ever. In 2019 they were a “Cinderella” nobody took them seriously in your own words. Gravante will go when he’s ready retire/move on(whether that’s right or not I don’t know) . They will progress to a better program post Gravante regardless of whoever they hire

[Farfromgeneva]

Stil don’t understand how the divisions work I see.

MSM will have a decent team every 4-5yrs built on senior leadership. By the end of the season not many who actually follow the NEC expected them to make it through to the AQ. It took Bart choking away a 7 gold Q3 lead to RoMo in order to get that insignificant reg season title but they just can’t build much depth occasionally have enough Junior and Seniors to compete in a season. I get that everyone looks up like I was make the case (to myself) that NEC is often comparable to AE and CAA but MSM was fine in the MAAC before and will be again. There’s a difference in conferences. It is what it is. Conflating the NEC and MAAC is specious.

I don't really care how you view the NEC and MAAC, the fact is they are similar mid-major conferences. My point is that MSM should be able to compete in either of these conferences and has the resources to do so. Whether or not they have the coaching I don't know?

How don’t your know when you cited 2019 and I presented his relative success in the MAAC preciously on this thread?

And what’s the lint of saying just go d3 if not? So impractical. It’s the competition not the expectation of winning every year. Otherwise why would Hobart have f**kes around in D1 the past 25yrs while being consistently refused to be allowed to give athletic aid by the NCAA? I guess I’m just getting old because I learned to compete against myself first and foremost. And to have fun

you are definitely just getting old

Absolutely. Was trying to teach my 9yr old to make alley oop passes to me yesterday afternoon, and I haven’t touched a (basketball) rim in 7-10yrs, ending up doing these awful “what if George Gervin and Javale McGee had a baby” awkward finger-roll layups and my knee nearly gave out coming downstairs to make coffee this am!

[Farfromgeneva]

So then what’s the point in asking the initial question? Because it was a question. If my kid refuses to be more risk averse at some point I stop asking if he’s going to be risk averse and look to build my expectations around those guardrails.

If you reread this same person who doesn’t care about conferences he’s asking for Gravante head based on this comment:

if you think all those schools have big advantages over MSM then you should just give up and drop down to D3.

kram, your comments are correct but you don’t foolishly think the school even has the option to drop to D3. See the difference? People keep thinking it has to be linear progression to some theoretical ideal (which Gravante has already accomplished by winning the MAAC multiple times and being in the NEC conference playoffs. Presenting these absurd binary options is goofy. He’s done it, he will do it again. It won’t be every year but until Mack and LIU, two premier D2 programs, showed up he was in the NEC playoffs most years. What worse are we talking about?

Every coach should be fired if they don’t win every year!

We get it your a Gravante supporter because you went to Hobart and your not gonna knock him. They have 4 winning seasons in 20 years, 2 of which are with arguably the schools best player ever. In 2019 they were a “Cinderella” nobody took them seriously in your own words. Gravante will go when he’s ready retire/move on(whether that’s right or not I don’t know) . They will progress to a better program post Gravante regardless of whoever they hire

So everybody is better than him? All those MAAC programs that win their conference with 5-1 in conference records and 2-6 OOC? Because

By the way I’ve gotten into absurd arguments with another Bart alum about Kerwick so nice job ASSuming without even checking the record. Like vicious stuff with another alum on Kerwick.

When’s Washington college returning to relevance? Do they need a new coach too? Siena is better off post Svec? (They are but only because he wasn’t a team player as part of a staff) Is Karweck the reason Colgate isn’t doing as well as Nagle and Murphy too? Miyashita?

80% NEC Champions
NEC Tournament Champions
2010 12 5 71% 7 1 88% MAAC Champions
MAAC Tournament Champions
NCAA Tournament First Round
2009 5 10 33% 5 3 61%
2008 2 12 14% 2 6 25%
2007 4 10 29% 4 4 50%
2006 7 9 44%
2005 8 9 47%
2004 5 8 38%
2003 10 8 56% MAAC Tournament Champions
NCAA Tournament First Round
2002 6 11 35%
2001 11 6 65% MAAC Champions
MAAC Tournament Champions
2000 8 8 50%
1999 11 6 65% MAAC Champions

[ReturnOfTheWAC]

So then what’s the point in asking the initial question? Because it was a question. If my kid refuses to be more risk averse at some point I stop asking if he’s going to be risk averse and look to build my expectations around those guardrails.

If you reread this same person who doesn’t care about conferences he’s asking for Gravante head based on this comment:

if you think all those schools have big advantages over MSM then you should just give up and drop down to D3.

kram, your comments are correct but you don’t foolishly think the school even has the option to drop to D3. See the difference? People keep thinking it has to be linear progression to some theoretical ideal (which Gravante has already accomplished by winning the MAAC multiple times and being in the NEC conference playoffs. Presenting these absurd binary options is goofy. He’s done it, he will do it again. It won’t be every year but until Mack and LIU, two premier D2 programs, showed up he was in the NEC playoffs most years. What worse are we talking about?

Every coach should be fired if they don’t win every year!

We get it your a Gravante supporter because you went to Hobart and your not gonna knock him. They have 4 winning seasons in 20 years, 2 of which are with arguably the schools best player ever. In 2019 they were a “Cinderella” nobody took them seriously in your own words. Gravante will go when he’s ready retire/move on(whether that’s right or not I don’t know) . They will progress to a better program post Gravante regardless of whoever they hire

So everybody is better than him? All those MAAC programs that win their conference with 5-1 in conference records and 2-6 OOC? Because

By the way I’ve gotten into absurd arguments with another Bart alum about Kerwick so nice job ASSuming without even checking the record. Like vicious stuff with another alum on Kerwick.

When’s Washington college returning to relevance? Do they need a new coach too? Siena is better off post Svec? (They are but only because he wasn’t a team player as part of a staff) Is Karweck the reason Colgate isn’t doing as well as Nagle and Murphy too? Miyashita?

80% NEC Champions
NEC Tournament Champions
2010 12 5 71% 7 1 88% MAAC Champions
MAAC Tournament Champions
NCAA Tournament First Round
2009 5 10 33% 5 3 61%
2008 2 12 14% 2 6 25%
2007 4 10 29% 4 4 50%
2006 7 9 44%
2005 8 9 47%
2004 5 8 38%
2003 10 8 56% MAAC Tournament Champions
NCAA Tournament First Round
2002 6 11 35%
2001 11 6 65% MAAC Champions
MAAC Tournament Champions
2000 8 8 50%
1999 11 6 65% MAAC Champions

I never said Washington needed a change or not(but they have made multiple since Gravante came into employment) but expectations needed to be met. I love you cherry picking seasons....

now lets look at the last 10 years .....



2011 9-6 4-1 NEC Champions
2012 6-9 2-3 NEC Tournament(lost in championship game)
2013 6-9 2-3
2014 1-15 1-5
2015 5-10 2-4
2016 6-8 2-4
2017 4-10 1-5
2018 5-9 2-4
2019 9-7 5-1 NEC Tournament(lost in semis)
2020 3-5 n/a
2021 4-9 2-5
2022 5-10 2-5

3 playoff appearances in 10 years 2 winning seasons. Again he will go when he is ready and the school will immediately be better for it

[Farfromgeneva]

Not cherry picking Hobart came after the implosion of the NEC. Bryant was just transitioning and St Joes came later so I picked their MAAC record that's not "cherry picking", trust me I work in corporate finance and capital markets, if I wanted to manipulate the data I would've done a much more thorough job in the presentation, that was on my phone in five seconds specifically becuase it was a very different conference starting in 2014.

The point, to a reader who is thinking is look at the wins overall/wins in conference in MAAC vs. NEC. But I guess you didn't understand that.

From 2007 - 2010 when they measured conference record, they won 23 games total, 18 in conference - that's 78% for the less quantitatively inclined.

Using full NEC, not accounting for reality of changes in conference (and we played Bryant 1-2x before joining the NEC and they weren't the same, especially from a depth perspective, subsequent in recent years took in two top 5 type D2 programs not randoms or newly built, who had champion quality coaches), they won 62 games total. About 5/yr including partial 20 and 21 seasons. They had one conference winning season after 2011, again not comparable with 2014 or 2018. In that same period including 2011 they won 25 games. So they won 40% of their total wins in conference vs. winning nearly 80% of their total in conference, 20% of their total wins were OOC in the MAAC, 60% of their total wins with OOC in the NEC. Take out 2011 and it gets worse. It's safe to see that pre conference measurement they were winning more in the MAAC than outside.

[ReturnOfTheWAC]

Not cherry picking Hobart came after the implosion of the NEC. Bryant was just transitioning and St Joes came later so I picked their MAAC record that's not "cherry picking", trust me I work in corporate finance and capital markets, if I wanted to manipulate the data I would've done a much more thorough job in the presentation, that was on my phone in five seconds specifically becuase it was a very different conference starting in 2014.

The point, to a reader who is thinking is look at the wins overall/wins in conference in MAAC vs. NEC. But I guess you didn't understand that.

From 2007 - 2010 when they measured conference record, they won 23 games total, 18 in conference - that's 78% for the less quantitatively inclined.

Using full NEC, not accounting for reality of changes in conference (and we played Bryant 1-2x before joining the NEC and they weren't the same, especially from a depth perspective, subsequent in recent years took in two top 5 type D2 programs not randoms or newly built, who had champion quality coaches), they won 62 games total. About 5/yr including partial 20 and 21 seasons. They had one conference winning season after 2011, again not comparable with 2014 or 2018. In that same period including 2011 they won 25 games. So they won 40% of their total wins in conference vs. winning nearly 80% of their total in conference, 20% of their total wins were OOC in the MAAC, 60% of their total wins with OOC in the NEC. Take out 2011 and it gets worse. It's safe to see that pre conference measurement they were winning more in the MAAC than outside.

Sorry not a "finance" guy that that docent work in "capital markets"(seems fancy). All I'm seeing is a bunch of terrible in conference records for the last ten years and some decent/good records in a very underfunded and scholarship capped MAAC in the early 2000s; since then with more resources they have been at the bottom of the conference. But hey I'm just a dumb non finance guy your obviously the expect on everything!

[gymman1031]

Stil don’t understand how the divisions work I see.

MSM will have a decent team every 4-5yrs built on senior leadership. By the end of the season not many who actually follow the NEC expected them to make it through to the AQ. It took Bart choking away a 7 gold Q3 lead to RoMo in order to get that insignificant reg season title but they just can’t build much depth occasionally have enough Junior and Seniors to compete in a season. I get that everyone looks up like I was make the case (to myself) that NEC is often comparable to AE and CAA but MSM was fine in the MAAC before and will be again. There’s a difference in conferences. It is what it is. Conflating the NEC and MAAC is specious.

I don't really care how you view the NEC and MAAC, the fact is they are similar mid-major conferences. My point is that MSM should be able to compete in either of these conferences and has the resources to do so. Whether or not they have the coaching I don't know?

+1

The reality is...for the good and bad, you know what you're getting with Gravante. He runs a clean, nondescript D1 program. The good (?) is that no one is beating down the door to hire him away. IF you find someone else, and IF they have a higher level of success, they would likely be out the door for greener pastures and you're looking to hire again. That's not something this administration wants to do. They are happy at locking in the cruise control just under the speed limit.

Bingo regarding Gravante! He is a lifer at MSM as long as they allow him to be there.

[Farfromgeneva]

Stil don’t understand how the divisions work I see.

MSM will have a decent team every 4-5yrs built on senior leadership. By the end of the season not many who actually follow the NEC expected them to make it through to the AQ. It took Bart choking away a 7 gold Q3 lead to RoMo in order to get that insignificant reg season title but they just can’t build much depth occasionally have enough Junior and Seniors to compete in a season. I get that everyone looks up like I was make the case (to myself) that NEC is often comparable to AE and CAA but MSM was fine in the MAAC before and will be again. There’s a difference in conferences. It is what it is. Conflating the NEC and MAAC is specious.

I don't really care how you view the NEC and MAAC, the fact is they are similar mid-major conferences. My point is that MSM should be able to compete in either of these conferences and has the resources to do so. Whether or not they have the coaching I don't know?

+1

The reality is...for the good and bad, you know what you're getting with Gravante. He runs a clean, nondescript D1 program. The good (?) is that no one is beating down the door to hire him away. IF you find someone else, and IF they have a higher level of success, they would likely be out the door for greener pastures and you're looking to hire again. That's not something this administration wants to do. They are happy at locking in the cruise control just under the speed limit.

How's siena done without Brecht, Colgate w/o Nagle, St Johns w/o Sowell, etc. Guys do just well enough to stick around like Wilkinson without causing trouble - Quinny, Air Force, Hartford

[molo]

I’m hearing that Gravante is out. Confirmation?

[AreaLax]

I’m hearing that Gravante is out. Confirmation?

Per Chris Jastrzembski Twitter

Have been told that Tom Gravante has been relieved of his duties as head coach at Mount St. Mary’s.

One of the longer-tenured coaches in Division I with a single school, Gravante had been the Mountaineers head coach since 1995.