Universal Start Date, New Tournament Format

[OCanada]

Cooter. The teams don’t pay the costs. Do t know about now but in addition to transportation and housing etc each school was comped 250 tickets

[kramerica.inc]

-I like the idea of starting the tournament on Memorial Day weekend at higher seeds. That way you keep the tradition, and it is a good kickoff to summer vacation. With the youth and h.s lax seasons ending around then, I know a lot of families that plan their memorial day around attending a college lax event. With different local colleges hosting, that means less time on roads and makes travel easier for families..

But these games are at the home fields of some pretty out of the way schools, are they not?

And if you START the tournament that late in May, you're guaranteeing that student fans have left for the summer, no?

And families can't plan to go to the game, because home seeds are announced just a week before the games.

Sounds like a recipe for worse attendance than we already have.....

Sure worse attendance is possible. But could it be a net gain (as others above noted) if TV ratings improve drastically just due to weekend choice? Hasn't the PLL showed us that it doesn't matter who is in the stands if the events get bought and are seen on TV? THe NCAA has proven time and again they want money, not necessarily butts in seats. TV gets you that.

You are already looking at some schools being closed in early May or in exams when the tourney currently starts. And you are already looking at lack of host sites due to commencement activities as it currently sits. There is a possibility that the stagger improves (or deteriorates) the host school options. Also, I'm under the general (anecdotal) impression that most college lax fans in the seats of most games are not the student body. But I could be wrong on that.

The first round games are already hosted at the higher seeds. Last year the games were at:

PSU
Loyola
Yale
UPenn
UVA
Towson
ND
Duke

Not necessarily "out of the way." I'd argue that it's more convenient having more options spread out on Memorial Day weekend, even if it just gives you a week's notice. If you happen to get a ND, Denver, Marquette, U Mich, OSU or Utah hosting that's pretty cool too and not a bad thing for those outside the I95 corridor either. I think the real challenge is staffing at these colleges on the Holiday weekend. So for that reason, the games may be limited to Fri-Sun and not on the holiday Monday.

[kramerica.inc]

How about we recognize that these kids are all student athletes. Maybe we don't need to play so many games? Maybe STUDENT athletes need some time to study and attend class during the week? Maybe it is perfectly OK to have the season end no later than Memorial Day so that these young men can fit other things into their lives? Maybe leave it alone? Maybe everything doesn't have to keep expanding and having the ante upped to the point of stupidity?

now someone go tell those kids to get off my lawn!

Sure they are student athletes. But most of these kids picked their schools with a major consideration of athletics.

So these kids who have eaten, breathed, and lived lacrosse for the past 15 years of their lives would want to have LESS of an NCAA tourney lax experience?

Love you Hoo. But gotta disagree. May and playoff lax is the culmination of what these kids have worked for their entire lives.

[a fan]

Sure worse attendance is possible. But could it be a net gain (as others above noted) if TV ratings improve drastically just due to weekend choice? Hasn't the PLL showed us that it doesn't matter who is in the stands if the events get bought and are seen on TV? THe NCAA has proven time and again they want money, not necessarily butts in seats. TV gets you that.

You are already looking at some schools being closed in early May or in exams when the tourney currently starts. And you are already looking at lack of host sites due to commencement activities as it currently sits. There is a possibility that the stagger improves (or deteriorates) the host school options. Also, I'm under the general (anecdotal) impression that most college lax fans in the seats of most games are not the student body. But I could be wrong on that.

Solid points.

[HooDat]

Sure they are student athletes. But most of these kids picked their schools with a major consideration of athletics.

So these kids who have eaten, breathed, and lived lacrosse for the past 15 years of their lives would want to have LESS of an NCAA tourney lax experience?

Love you Hoo. But gotta disagree. May and playoff lax is the culmination of what these kids have worked for their entire lives.

agree with all you say here, but I am not sure I have seen any comments about improving the PLAYER's experience during the tournament, it has all been about improving the spectator's experience - or even worse (in my opinion) the amount of money generated by the event for third parties....

[kramerica.inc]

True. Fair enough.

So one thing that occasionally gets talked about in terms of improving the student/athlete experience- NCAA playoff roster limits.

Stop with the roster limits. Let ALL the kids on the team dress!

[wgdsr]

How about we recognize that these kids are all student athletes. Maybe we don't need to play so many games? Maybe STUDENT athletes need some time to study and attend class during the week? Maybe it is perfectly OK to have the season end no later than Memorial Day so that these young men can fit other things into their lives? Maybe leave it alone? Maybe everything doesn't have to keep expanding and having the ante upped to the point of stupidity?

now someone go tell those kids to get off my lawn!

i'm gonna come at you a little bit, too, hoodat.
tennis - 30+, hockey - 35-40+, baseball - 60+, softball - 50+(plus a fall season), volleyball - 30+, basketball - 35-40, golf - 35-40. that's how many games those teams are playing. i'm not sure it's any kind of an argument that lacrosse plays too many games. or that a couple of mid-week games would hamper their education to the point of diminishing returns. unless we believe lacrosse players' educations matter, but the athletes in those other sports don't?
hell, even women's lacrosse plays more games. so do division 3 men's.

what do all of the above have in common to do that? they have to play some mid-week games. somehow, they manage. there is one small faction of people that don't want mid-week games, and that is the coaches.

on your latter point, i agree from the athletes' perspective (and a lot of others). here's another thought -- once campuses desert, which can be anywhere from very early may to mid-may... it's a ghost town, and you are left with nothing else to do but practice, double session, film, eat bad food, hopefully not get into trouble. that's a long 6-7 days between games. if you want to stretch that period out to 5-6 weeks, players will be going out of their minds. add to the fact that you have 25 guys who won't even play (or dress in many cases with nc$$ limitations), and you get a serious strain on your team's cohesion. and the overall experience for the team, win or lose.

[OCanada]

I lot of discussion looks at the issue from the fans point of view. Not so much from the players or universities or staff or NCAA point of view. Interesting points get made but they don’t take into consideration more important players in the grand scheme.

Your points are very like points made in discussions more than a decade ago. ^5

[Cooter]

Sure they are student athletes. But most of these kids picked their schools with a major consideration of athletics.

So these kids who have eaten, breathed, and lived lacrosse for the past 15 years of their lives would want to have LESS of an NCAA tourney lax experience?

Love you Hoo. But gotta disagree. May and playoff lax is the culmination of what these kids have worked for their entire lives.

agree with all you say here, but I am not sure I have seen any comments about improving the PLAYER's experience during the tournament, it has all been about improving the spectator's experience - or even worse (in my opinion) the amount of money generated by the event for third parties....

My comment about moving the NCAA final game from Memorial Day to the next weekend was about the player's experience. Instead of having to play in one of the biggest games of their lives with just 1 day of practice, they would have a whole week to prepare themselves and get ready.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

1 was qu0ted!!!!

I hope you don’t mind me asking, but what’s with the 1s and 0s?

Are you binary?

[Dip&Dunk]

1 was qu0ted!!!!

I hope you don’t mind me asking, but what’s with the 1s and 0s?

Are you binary?

You can't ask that anymore.

[smoova]

Start 1ater and p1ay m0re weekday games, mic dr0p,

^^^ this

Correct. HS kids will play 9 games in 3 days (Friday showcase plus weekend tournament), with only 20 kids on a roster and often bookended by long travel days, but when we/they show up to college, playing 2 games in a weekend with a roster of 50+ is unthinkable. Occam's razor.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Start 1ater and p1ay m0re weekday games, mic dr0p,

^^^ this

Correct. HS kids will play 9 games in 3 days (Friday showcase plus weekend tournament), with only 20 kids on a roster and often bookended by long travel days, but when we/they show up to college playing 2 games in a weekend with a roster of 50+ is unthinkable. Occam's razor.

Those 35 minute running time games aren’t college lacrosse games. I favor pushing the start time back with a few midweek games. Ivy League first games are Feb 15th or so. It can work for everyone. You will lose some big OCC games as the calendar is compressed unless you move some conference games to midweek. 3 or 4 mid week games is reasonable. Harder for Denver/Utah/ Air Force and to a lesser extent ND.

[HooDat]

Players would rather play games than practice - so I am a supporter of the idea of mid-week games.

With that said, the logistics can be challenging, as I don't think a mid-week game with an opponent that is three states away is optimal - the travel makes no sense. Which leads to the notion that mid-week games should really be reserved for local opponents. Because of the tv ratings driven expansion of conferences, not all in conference games are the same in terms of travel. For example, I tend to think UVA vs Richmond rather than UVA vs Syracuse is a better mid-week game.

What do Denver, Air Force or Utah do about mid-week games? I guess that travel disruption becomes a part of their lives. If you go to play at Utah, you know going in that you are going to spend a lot of time traveling....

wgsr's point is well taken.

[OCanada]

Ernie Banks quote. “Let’s play two”

My HS used to play a lot of Canadian HS thst tewuired travel of sometimes two hours. Our primary sports were hockey and FB. We would sometimes play three games in a week.

Players I have talked with over the years like the FF structure. Nothing is ever perfect but it seemed the best solution was the essence.

The basic questions seldom get addressed in discussions. WhT dies the Men’s Lacrosse Committee think? What do the coaches think? What do the players think. Hosting is a key issue. Are all these schools going to interrupt their calendars for a lacrosse game. I have noted before the NCAA moved to pro stadia NO ONE was beating dien the doors to host. MD was done. Their staff was done. Their volunteers were done after something like 6 FFs.

To my mind going bsck to small stadia is a strp backward. Better to correct the bigger issues as it stands. A weekend in Nsltimote for the FF has become too expensive firctge casual fan or average family of four. Tickets prices are driven by stadia costs and budgets. Too high. Everyone had their hsnf out. Hotels, parking, meals, memorabilia, sightseeing etc all add up.

I would be interested in knowing what percent of ticket sales are walkups. It used to be sbout 10%.

Ten years ago we had a major recession which ripples through the economy and hurt sales. Purchasing power in the country has been flat for decades. Lax is a marginal activity of you aren't closely tied to a team or the sport.

The structure, pricing, location etc of the lax tourney involved a lot of moving parts and factors allocated which need to be addressed in any scenario

[NElaxtalent]

• NCAA hockey hockey often plays Fri/Sat, so why can't lacrosse manage 2 games per week (somehow) a few times a season to push the start date back to 3/1? A Thurs/Sat or Fri/Sun is also possible.

• Ivy basketball & hockey play Fri/Sat all season, this includes TRAVEL between back to back road games

I believe the 1x/wk is largely about coaches wanting a full week to implement extensive game plans to control/analyze film/game-plan every aspect & personal match-up. Yes travel is a factor but other NCAA sports routinely travel & play mid-week.

[Dunker]

Kinduf: Comment of thee year by you. Very funny. Hopefully you know I was not being sarcastic.

[Gorilla Fan]

I dunno... it wasn’t always this way... UMass opens these days with Army. Which is always a terrific grudge match between 2 tough, well coached teams. The game is always played the first weekend in February, and whether at West Point, or Garber, it’s always frigid. It is played in front of 300 family members and close friends.

I get that the recent advent of conference tourneys has pushed everything back a week or even more, but sunny days on the hill at Garber were special. Same could be said of Homewood, Klockner, and many others. Spring lacrosse with a student body presence is a thing of the past. (Except shout out to Loyola)

Why are we so stuck to Memorial Day? Play it every year at Annapolis, make it home. Week after graduation, awesome venue. Or play it somewhere else, but why is lacrosse tied to a weekend that is the beginning of summer? When families start their vacations? When no one is watching television, when traffic is murder along the corridor?

I don’t know why extended stay of a handful of teams past finals is a big deal when softball and baseball with many more teams goes well beyond.

Talk all you want about the growth and promotion of the game, but it sucks freezing your butt off in the Northeast, with wind whipping, snow banks piled, and you can’t feel your feet.

[OCanada]

Navy has commissioning week. I also doubt they would want to be the permanent site

[bearlaxfan]

A previous comment that assuming an ^ in midweek games, the natural choice of opponents will be local schools, rings true. This can have a trickle-down effect on SOS & RPI, and will vary by region. Md/DC area schools would be boosted most, as the UMd Hop Loyola Towson Navy Georgetown nexus is- currently- strong (UMBC (maybe Navy?) outlier(s)). Other regions less strong: less SOS/RPI benefit.