Orange Duce

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Believe his 35% base is unchanged no matter what Trump says or does and no matter what the media or critics say or do. I agree with you on that.

Thanks TLD. You put it a lot more succinctly than I did.

[cradleandshoot]

Believe his 35% base is unchanged no matter what Trump says or does and no matter what the media or critics say or do. I agree with you on that.

Thanks TLD. You put it a lot more succinctly than I did.

So nothing much has changed. trumps people will vote for him no matter what. Bidens people will vote for him no matter what. Will the upcoming debate change any ones opinion? I doubt it, but if your looking for one bizarre spectacle of a presidential debate this is the one you want to see. I can only speak for myself. My opinion will not change. No way in hell I vote for either of these knuckle heads. I'm not alone in feeling that way.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/31/poli ... ry-charges

This is politically motivated. Leave him alone.

[a fan]

Not to get too far off topic here, but I get the impression from talking to a lot of different people, that ultimately, there is a large segment of the population in America that doesn't care what Trump does in his personal life or even, to a degree, his political life, so long as he continues to talk about and "champion" his particular philosophy on how things should be in America--which obviously resonates with a lot of people. In other words, people are more concerned with what he does, the policies he enacts while he's in office as opposed to what he says and does.

Respectfully, you have it backwards. These voters are 1000% times more interested in what he says....and pays ZERO attention to what he does.

Pretty easy to figure this out: quiz them.

1. ask them if our troops hit any new countries (his comment on endless wars), or pulled out of the ones troops were already in
2. ask him what he did about China (standing up to China) and whether our imports from there went up or down.
3. here's a fun trick question: ask them how much Trump cut Federal spending (draining the swamp).
4. ask if he fixing immigration.

From there? I'd bet they can't name the things that Trump DID do. Like the Federal prison reform bill. Or massive tax cuts for the rich. Or three MASSIVE spending bills BEFORE Covid spending hit.

It has NOTHING to do with policy. They want his speeches. They want him to "stick it to the libs"....which to them, also means the press and the DoJ, FBI, etc., even though they were all run by R's and Trump appointees when Trump was there.

I know folks who were very happy with some of the things he DID while in office, and didn't care about his stupid tweets and/or his stupid comments and/or the other idiotic or sordid stuff he did and said.

Your response is an absolutely perfect modern day example of this:

Not even close!

I'm not asking about some intentionally obscure speech or policy...which is what the snobby aristocrat is doing in this clip.

I'm asking SIMPLE POLICY questions that are DIRECTLY related to Trump's very specific campaign planks that he said over and over and over and over.

For the folks you're telling me told you in person that they like the policies he executed? Name them. Just a few would suffice.

And for those folks? Ask them my above questions. See what they say. Especially ask them about the massive spending bills pre-Covid. I'd be stunned if any of them noticed that he did that. Happy to be corrected.

I, too, liked PLENTY of small things Trump did. And I just named one: Federal prison reform. I also thought Trump would use our military as a toy: I'm THRILLED he didn't. I also like that Trump gave Covid-related powers to each State's Governors, and didn't Federalize the rules and responses...which he could have EASILY done. I could name plenty more.

Edit to add: ask those same folks to name a few policies that Biden and Obama had that they liked. If they can't name any? There's your clue that policy isn't all that important, and they're supporting the person (or the letter R or D), not the policy.

Whether they are right or wrong or know the specifics is irrelevant—that’s what I’ve heard a number of people say, and bottom line—that’s what they believe--they like the things he DID while he was in office. Period.

Sure. But that's not at all the same thing as caring about policies. What they are doing is starting with the position that they like Trump no matter what, and then inventing reasons why, and discarding anything and everything that runs counter to "I like Trump".

Look at Trump's polling. It's unique among Republican Presidents, and unique among American Presidents.....not matter what he did over 4 years, his approval was in the high 80's or 90's for R voters. What he said and did was immaterial to Republican voters.

Reagan's approval among Republicans was related to actions and policies. That ship has sailed for the R party. Which is a serious problem if you ask me.

[njbill]

Believe his 35% base is unchanged no matter what Trump says or does and no matter what the media or critics say or do. I agree with you on that.

Thanks TLD. You put it a lot more succinctly than I did.

So nothing much has changed. trumps people will vote for him no matter what. Bidens people will vote for him no matter what. Will the upcoming debate change any ones opinion? I doubt it, but if your looking for one bizarre spectacle of a presidential debate this is the one you want to see. I can only speak for myself. My opinion will not change. No way in hell I vote for either of these knuckle heads. I'm not alone in feeling that way.

If you are going to vote for someone other than Trump or Biden, or not vote at all, you certainly understand that either Trump or Biden will win the election. Which one do you want to win between those two?

In 1980, I voted for John Anderson. I thought Carter had done a terrible job and there was no way in hell I would ever vote for a right wing idiot like Ronald Reagan. I knew Anderson wasn’t going to win. Between the two, I wanted Carter to win.

So how about you?

[Farfromgeneva]

Not to get too far off topic here, but I get the impression from talking to a lot of different people, that ultimately, there is a large segment of the population in America that doesn't care what Trump does in his personal life or even, to a degree, his political life, so long as he continues to talk about and "champion" his particular philosophy on how things should be in America--which obviously resonates with a lot of people. In other words, people are more concerned with what he does, the policies he enacts while he's in office as opposed to what he says and does.

Respectfully, you have it backwards. These voters are 1000% times more interested in what he says....and pays ZERO attention to what he does.

Pretty easy to figure this out: quiz them.

1. ask them if our troops hit any new countries (his comment on endless wars), or pulled out of the ones troops were already in
2. ask him what he did about China (standing up to China) and whether our imports from there went up or down.
3. here's a fun trick question: ask them how much Trump cut Federal spending (draining the swamp).
4. ask if he fixing immigration.

From there? I'd bet they can't name the things that Trump DID do. Like the Federal prison reform bill. Or massive tax cuts for the rich. Or three MASSIVE spending bills BEFORE Covid spending hit.

It has NOTHING to do with policy. They want his speeches. They want him to "stick it to the libs"....which to them, also means the press and the DoJ, FBI, etc., even though they were all run by R's and Trump appointees when Trump was there.

I know folks who were very happy with some of the things he DID while in office, and didn't care about his stupid tweets and/or his stupid comments and/or the other idiotic or sordid stuff he did and said.

Your response is an absolutely perfect modern day example of this:

Specifics and background on said folks.

[Farfromgeneva]

Can't remember the last time I watched any of the morning "news" shows but I did this morning.
Cohen was outstanding on GMA, he echoed my opinion of Trump, absolutely nailed it. How those
millions upon millions see this slimy shyster as the man they want for their president is truly
disappointing, pre Trump I never realized who so many of my fellow citizens really are.
I've gotta wonder if Trump is still tired of winning. Millions upon millions in fines from lost cases,
34X convicted felon. The man's been making his bed for a lifetime, it's now time to lie down in it.
Oh, but you can still vote for him to be the face of your country.

... why did the rural mid-west folks during the depression root for the bank robbers?

“Social control is never perfect, and so many norms and people exist that there are always some people who violate some norms. In fact, Émile Durkheim (1895/1962), a founder of sociology discussed in Chapter 1 “Sociology and the Sociological Perspective”, stressed that a society without deviance is impossible for at least two reasons. First, the collective conscience (see Chapter 1 “Sociology and the Sociological Perspective”) is never strong enough to prevent all rule breaking. Even in a “society of saints,” such as a monastery, he said, rules will be broken and negative social reactions aroused. Second, because deviance serves several important functions for society ( which we discuss later in this chapter), any given society “invents” deviance by defining certain behaviors as deviant and the people who commit them as deviants. Because Durkheim thought deviance was inevitable for these reasons, he considered it a normal part of every healthy society.”

https://open.lib.umn.edu/sociology/chap ... -deviance/

See I’m super f**kin high value to society!

Just got back from watching Natalie Portman Dior commercials on loop. The rest of my activity during said viewing belongs in Hamsterdam. What did I miss?

[Farfromgeneva]

Not to get too far off topic here, but I get the impression from talking to a lot of different people, that ultimately, there is a large segment of the population in America that doesn't care what Trump does in his personal life or even, to a degree, his political life, so long as he continues to talk about and "champion" his particular philosophy on how things should be in America--which obviously resonates with a lot of people. In other words, people are more concerned with what he does, the policies he enacts while he's in office as opposed to what he says and does.

Respectfully, you have it backwards. These voters are 1000% times more interested in what he says....and pays ZERO attention to what he does.

Pretty easy to figure this out: quiz them.

1. ask them if our troops hit any new countries (his comment on endless wars), or pulled out of the ones troops were already in
2. ask him what he did about China (standing up to China) and whether our imports from there went up or down.
3. here's a fun trick question: ask them how much Trump cut Federal spending (draining the swamp).
4. ask if he fixing immigration.

From there? I'd bet they can't name the things that Trump DID do. Like the Federal prison reform bill. Or massive tax cuts for the rich. Or three MASSIVE spending bills BEFORE Covid spending hit.

It has NOTHING to do with policy. They want his speeches. They want him to "stick it to the libs"....which to them, also means the press and the DoJ, FBI, etc., even though they were all run by R's and Trump appointees when Trump was there.

I know folks who were very happy with some of the things he DID while in office, and didn't care about his stupid tweets and/or his stupid comments and/or the other idiotic or sordid stuff he did and said.

Your response is an absolutely perfect modern day example of this:

Not even close!

I'm not asking about some intentionally obscure speech or policy...which is what the snobby aristocrat is doing in this clip.

I'm asking SIMPLE POLICY questions that are DIRECTLY related to Trump's very specific campaign planks that he said over and over and over and over.

For the folks you're telling me told you in person that they like the policies he executed? Name them. Just a few would suffice.

And for those folks? Ask them my above questions. See what they say. Especially ask them about the massive spending bills pre-Covid. I'd be stunned if any of them noticed that he did that. Happy to be corrected.

I, too, liked PLENTY of small things Trump did. And I just named one: Federal prison reform. I also thought Trump would use our military as a toy: I'm THRILLED he didn't. I also like that Trump gave Covid-related powers to each State's Governors, and didn't Federalize the rules and responses...which he could have EASILY done. I could name plenty more.

Edit to add: ask those same folks to name a few policies that Biden and Obama had that they liked. If they can't name any? There's your clue that policy isn't all that important, and they're supporting the person (or the letter R or D), not the policy.

Whether they are right or wrong or know the specifics is irrelevant—that’s what I’ve heard a number of people say, and bottom line—that’s what they believe--they like the things he DID while he was in office. Period.

I wouldn’t ask folks these questions you’re suggesting I ask. That’s not me. When folks are holding forth about Trump or Biden, or whomever—I listen. I’ve learned that trying to have a face-to-face discussion about politicians and political issues is a frickin minefield. No more surprise explosions for me please—thank you very much.

It’s well nigh impossible to get folks to change their mind about politics anyway. So I don’t waste my time. I shared my observations at the beginning of this thread. Ain’t tryin to proselytize me nobody.

Sounds like delusion. An alternate reality they’ve created.

I also have been to zoos and watched monkeys throw s**t at each other. That’s an observation.

[cradleandshoot]

Believe his 35% base is unchanged no matter what Trump says or does and no matter what the media or critics say or do. I agree with you on that.

Thanks TLD. You put it a lot more succinctly than I did.

So nothing much has changed. trumps people will vote for him no matter what. Bidens people will vote for him no matter what. Will the upcoming debate change any ones opinion? I doubt it, but if your looking for one bizarre spectacle of a presidential debate this is the one you want to see. I can only speak for myself. My opinion will not change. No way in hell I vote for either of these knuckle heads. I'm not alone in feeling that way.

If you are going to vote for someone other than Trump or Biden, or not vote at all, you certainly understand that either Trump or Biden will win the election. Which one do you want to win between those two?

In 1980, I voted for John Anderson. I thought Carter had done a terrible job and there was no way in hell I would ever vote for a right wing idiot like Ronald Reagan. I knew Anderson wasn’t going to win. Between the two, I wanted Carter to win.

So how about you?

I'm waiting to see how the 3rd party field plays out. I do know that many other people feel the same way. Neither individual is qualified to be president.

[ggait]

If you are going to vote for someone other than Trump or Biden, or not vote at all, you certainly understand that either Trump or Biden will win the election. Which one do you want to win between those two?

Of course third party voting is a waste of time. In the last 18 presidential elections (1972 and ff) third party candidates have won ZERO electoral votes.
That's 0-for-9,684 in winning electoral votes.

Ross Perot -- zero. John Anderson -- zero. RFK Jr. -- zero. Everyone except George Wallace in 1968 -- zero.

But since Cray lives in NYS, doesn't matter. For this go around 47 of the 50 states are whatever. Which is outrageous.

The EC (despite its nasty slave protecting genesis) is not the problem. The problem is the WTA allocations of the EVs choices made by the states. Which isn't in the Constitution and which was totally not intended by the Founders. But once one state pulls the WTA BS, every other state has to follow suit. Classic tragedy of the Commons and a major blunder by the Founders. As TJ put it in 1800:

“All agree that an election by districts would be best, if it could be general; but while 10 states choose either by their legislatures or by a general ticket, it is folly & worse than folly for the other 6 not to do it.” After TJ lost in 1796, VA switched in 1800 to WTA. Once VA switches, then Massachusetts switches to ensure that all its electoral votes would go to John Adams. And so on.

Unlikely that Joe will win any of the Sun Belt swing states (NC, GA, AZ, NV) this time. And if he does, that means he will be over-performing elsewhere so the Sun Belt swingers won't outcome determine.

For this election, the only voters who actually matter are a sliver of persuade-ables in PA, Mich, Wisc. If Sleepy Joe wins those, he gets to exactly to the minimum 270 EVs. Yikes.

And if Joe does draw to the straight, the MAGA mouth breathers led by Orange Jesus will burn the country down over bogus Big Lie 2.0.

Buckle up.

[njbill]

Believe his 35% base is unchanged no matter what Trump says or does and no matter what the media or critics say or do. I agree with you on that.

Thanks TLD. You put it a lot more succinctly than I did.

So nothing much has changed. trumps people will vote for him no matter what. Bidens people will vote for him no matter what. Will the upcoming debate change any ones opinion? I doubt it, but if your looking for one bizarre spectacle of a presidential debate this is the one you want to see. I can only speak for myself. My opinion will not change. No way in hell I vote for either of these knuckle heads. I'm not alone in feeling that way.

If you are going to vote for someone other than Trump or Biden, or not vote at all, you certainly understand that either Trump or Biden will win the election. Which one do you want to win between those two?

In 1980, I voted for John Anderson. I thought Carter had done a terrible job and there was no way in hell I would ever vote for a right wing idiot like Ronald Reagan. I knew Anderson wasn’t going to win. Between the two, I wanted Carter to win.

So how about you?

I'm waiting to see how the 3rd party field plays out. I do know that many other people feel the same way. Neither individual is qualified to be president.

You are ducking. You know that any third-party candidate isn’t going to win even if you vote for him.

So who do you want to win between Biden and Trump?

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Sure. But that's not at all the same thing as caring about policies. What they are doing is starting with the position that they like Trump no matter what, and then inventing reasons why, and discarding anything and everything that runs counter to "I like Trump".

Waaaaay too simplified. We're talking about a whole group made up of complex human beings. I was in touch with a woman living in Israel during Trump's presidency. She thought he was a raving looney and a capital A aszhole--but she loved what he was doing for her country, and she loved the fact that she could now travel to the United Arab Emirates. I know there are other people in America who felt and continue to feel the same way. I worked with a guy who was from Vietnam during Trump's term. He loved that he stood up to China, because the Vietnamese, he told me, detest China. He liked what Trump DID. They ultimately didn't care what kind of person he was or what kind of character he had. That's just a couple of examples that come to mind.

Look at Trump's polling. It's unique among Presidents, and unique among American Presidents.....no matter what he did over 4 years, his approval was in the high 80's or 90's for R voters. What he said and did was immaterial to Republican voters.

I think we're saying the same thing, just in different ways.

Reagan's approval among Republicans was related to actions and policies. That ship has sailed for the R party. Which is a serious problem if you ask me.

I agree wholeheartedly--it is indeed a serious problem. There is a large segment of the population that is pissed off at liberal mindsets and policies becoming more and more pervasive in American culture. One for instance--go survey female athletes and ask them how they feel about being forced to compete against biological males. I don't think folks realize the deep seated, seething and festering resentment there is in this country toward some of the liberal agendas being jammed down their throats. They see Trump as their only hope for respite. Whether they are misinformed, closed-minded, white trash, un or under-educated, whatever--they're enraged. And if Trump is the Republican on the ballot come November, they'll vote for him again by their tens of millions as they did in 2020. I have no stinky idea what will happen in November, but this country may very well get another rude surprise.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Sounds like delusion. An alternate reality they’ve created.

Could very well be--but those so-called deluded people get a vote, just like Stevens the uninformed butler did, much to the chagrin of the lofty high-minded.

[Typical Lax Dad]

If you are going to vote for someone other than Trump or Biden, or not vote at all, you certainly understand that either Trump or Biden will win the election. Which one do you want to win between those two?

Of course third party voting is a waste of time. In the last 18 presidential elections (1972 and ff) third party candidates have won ZERO electoral votes.
That's 0-for-9,684 in winning electoral votes.

Ross Perot -- zero. John Anderson -- zero. RFK Jr. -- zero. Everyone except George Wallace in 1968 -- zero.

But since Cray lives in NYS, doesn't matter. For this go around 47 of the 50 states are whatever. Which is outrageous.

The EC (despite its nasty slave protecting genesis) is not the problem. The problem is the WTA allocations of the EVs choices made by the states. Which isn't in the Constitution and which was totally not intended by the Founders. But once one state pulls the WTA BS, every other state has to follow suit. Classic tragedy of the Commons and a major blunder by the Founders. As TJ put it in 1800:

“All agree that an election by districts would be best, if it could be general; but while 10 states choose either by their legislatures or by a general ticket, it is folly & worse than folly for the other 6 not to do it.” After TJ lost in 1796, VA switched in 1800 to WTA. Once VA switches, then Massachusetts switches to ensure that all its electoral votes would go to John Adams. And so on.

Unlikely that Joe will win any of the Sun Belt swing states (NC, GA, AZ, NV) this time. And if he does, that means he will be over-performing elsewhere so the Sun Belt swingers won't outcome determine.

For this election, the only voters who actually matter are a sliver of persuade-ables in PA, Mich, Wisc. If Sleepy Joe wins those, he gets to exactly to the minimum 270 EVs. Yikes.

And if Joe does draw to the straight, the MAGA mouth breathers led by Orange Jesus will burn the country down over bogus Big Lie 2.0.

Buckle up.

I am hoping this happens.

[DMac]

TLD wrote
I am hoping this happens.

When I look out my windows I can see down the street both ways a long way (straight street),
thought many times I could pick off the bad guys from a long way away. I'm hoping that happens
too.

[old salt]

This seems to be the emerging theme: that the prosecution may help Trump because it was overtly political. Almost all of the palaver over the Trump felony verdict appears to be evidence free; that is, none of the critics or critiques since the verdict really canvas the evidence and look at the process by which the jury arrived at this verdict.

New York law criminalizes falsifying internal business records even when they are private and not used to cheat the tax system or defraud anyone. In New York, falsifying private business records is generally a misdemeanor. It becomes a felony only if, as the jury found here, the actions are used to cover up or conceal a crime. In this case, the jury appears to have been persuaded by the prosecution’s argument that the crime covered up was essentially a scheme to defraud the American people by concealing information about the character and conduct of a presidential candidate.

Looking at the evidence, there is no doubt -- no reasonable doubt -- that after the disclosure of the Access Hollywood tape, Trump and his campaign (separate things) both wanted desperately to keep the public from finding out that Trump had been serially unfaithful to his wife, with a Playboy model and an adult film actress. He, with the assistance of Cohen and Trump's friends at the tabloid, arranged to pay these women off, for their silence -- so the rest of us wouldn't know about the loathsome creature this guy was. The prosecution's case was buttressed by an enormous body of evidence, built to pre-corroborate what would be Cohen's testimony (and hold against the inevitable attacks on Cohen's veracity and trustworthiness).

The issue to cavil with can only, reasonably, be the decision to prosecute in the first place. Bragg did not run on a "get Trump" platform. In fact, he slowed the prosecution, and took a very hard look at the evidence, consulted with his career prosecution staff and evaluated the wrongs at issue.

A grand jury then indicted, in criminal procedure a routine and necessary step that certainly favors the prosecution view of the world. There was then extensive evidence disclosure and sharing with the defense team, which in this case appears to have been made up of experienced and skilled trial lawyers, deeply familiar with the NY courts and court system, particularly Bove and Necheles. They tried the case, confronted the prosecution's witnesses, including the crucial triumvirate of Cohen and Daniels and Pecker.

Counsel for the former President, Blanche, made a decision not to directly confront a handwritten note from former Trump Organization chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg revealing that a $130,000 payment payment to Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen had been "grossed up" to $360,000 so Cohen would avoid federal taxes. Trump's team likewise failed to confront and reduce the impact of a note from former Trump Organization controller Jeffrey McConney mentioning the need to increase the payment to Cohen to cover taxes. Moreover, Trump's legal team had no factual answer to (or, more importantly, witness to credibly and creditably rebut) the body of evidence that strongly suggested that the purpose of the overall scheme, pursuant to which records were falsified, was to help Trump's 2015 campaign, which was then thought to be in trouble against Mrs. Clinton.

And the prosecution's presentation resounded enough with the jury for 12 citizens (who themselves were seated only after significant voir dire by the lawyers, aimed at their ability to be and remain impartial), after 11 hours of deliberation, to convict Trump of the crimes asserted by the State.

Merchan is not corrupt; he presided over the trial and managed his courtroom very well, particularly in the face of a defendant whose principal effort was to distort and discredit the process and the people managing it. The jury isn't composed of crazy Trump haters. Trump appears to have committed the wrongdoing for the very purpose that the prosecution posited. He has all his appellate rights, and access to good counsel to prosecute his appeal. Welcome to America, where, if you avoid the spin, all you will see if a big shot trying to get away with something and finally getting caught.

Well written article. Is that an original post ? If not, who is the author ?

[old salt]

Sure. But that's not at all the same thing as caring about policies. What they are doing is starting with the position that they like Trump no matter what, and then inventing reasons why, and discarding anything and everything that runs counter to "I like Trump".

Waaaaay too simplified. We're talking about a whole group made up of complex human beings. I was in touch with a woman living in Israel during Trump's presidency. She thought he was a raving looney and a capital A aszhole--but she loved what he was doing for her country, and she loved the fact that she could now travel to the United Arab Emirates. I know there are other people in America who felt and continue to feel the same way. I worked with a guy who was from Vietnam during Trump's term. He loved that he stood up to China, because the Vietnamese, he told me, detest China. He liked what Trump DID. They ultimately didn't care what kind of person he was or what kind of character he had. That's just a couple of examples that come to mind.

Look at Trump's polling. It's unique among Presidents, and unique among American Presidents.....no matter what he did over 4 years, his approval was in the high 80's or 90's for R voters. What he said and did was immaterial to Republican voters.

I think we're saying the same thing, just in different ways.

Reagan's approval among Republicans was related to actions and policies. That ship has sailed for the R party. Which is a serious problem if you ask me.

I agree wholeheartedly--it is indeed a serious problem. There is a large segment of the population that is pissed off at liberal mindsets and policies becoming more and more pervasive in American culture. One for instance--go survey female athletes and ask them how they feel about being forced to compete against biological males. I don't think folks realize the deep seated, seething and festering resentment there is in this country toward some of the liberal agendas being jammed down their throats. They see Trump as their only hope for respite. Whether they are misinformed, closed-minded, white trash, un or under-educated, whatever--they're enraged. And if Trump is the only candidate on the Republican ticket come November, they'll vote for him again by their tens of millions as they did in 2020. I have no stinky idea what will happen in November, but this country may very well get another rude surprise.

+1 ...& other short term memory losses.

-- As President, Trump did not use the judicial process to go after political enemies. He didn't pursue Hillary on the email server & said that he didn't want to hurt the Clintons. Hunter Biden was not charged (or even leaked on) during the election campaign.
-- Trump did not start any new wars. He ended the war on ISIS by unleashing the ROE & letting his regional commander finish the fight asap, then reduced our ME presence. He also stopped our bleeding in Afghanistan, drew down our forces there & left in place a conditions based exit plan.
-- Abraham Accords
-- unleashed our energy sector. Refilled the SPRO. Attained energy self-sufficiency.
-- Got NATO off their collective asses & jolted them into rebuilding & rearming (obtw -- with US made weapons systems).

> 74 million citizens voted for the (R) candidate for President, not necessarily for Trump the man, many in spite of....
There was & is only so much he can do without the GOP behind him.

[a fan]

Sure. But that's not at all the same thing as caring about policies. What they are doing is starting with the position that they like Trump no matter what, and then inventing reasons why, and discarding anything and everything that runs counter to "I like Trump".

Waaaaay too simplified. We're talking about a whole group made up of complex human beings. I was in touch with a woman living in Israel during Trump's presidency. She thought he was a raving looney and a capital A aszhole--but she loved what he was doing for her country, and she loved the fact that she could now travel to the United Arab Emirates. I know there are other people in America who felt and continue to feel the same way. I worked with a guy who was from Vietnam during Trump's term. He loved that he stood up to China, because the Vietnamese, he told me, detest China. He liked what Trump DID. They ultimately didn't care what kind of person he was or what kind of character he had. That's just a couple of examples that come to mind.

If this was correct, Trump's polling among Republicans would look the same as they did under Reagan....where favorability goes up and down according to what Reagan did. Because this "a whole group of complex human beings" thing applies to ALL humans, not just TrumpFans, correct?"

Understand that we have never in the history of our nation have a POTUS who polled at the high 80's to 90's for a given Party for four years.

What has happened is the arrival of right wing media...where they tell their viewer that everything Trump does is awesome. Criticize nothing. Ignore anything that Trump does or doesn't do that isn't really conservative, and do NOT tell viewers about it.

It's why I asked you to quiz your friends who like Trump's policies: they will NEVER hear that Trump increased the size of Federal Government by nearly 100% in four years, cut the heck out of taxes....and flooded the American economy with literally ~3 trillion dollars of borrowed money.... and then claimed how awesome the economy was under Trump.

What happens when you double the amount of currency available in a country in a few short years? That's right: inflation, as that cash is devalued. Do R's blame Trump for that? Nope. Why? Because they were never informed that Trump increased Federal cash outlays by nearly $3 trillion in four short years. It's why I say policy doesn't matter....these voters don't bother looking at what Trump did the way that they did under previous R Presidents. They just consume what Fox et. al. tell them Trump did, and do NOT question it. This is KILLING our country.

There isn't a corollary to Right Wing news for the Dems. Result? Biden started at 88% approval among Dems...and he's now at 64%. Not only do Dems hear about the bad things Biden does...they actually CARE about what he does. That's how it's SUPPOSED to work in America. The Dem partiy and their media and voters simply don't behave the same way that 2024 Republicans and their media do. This is a very new, and VERY dangerous thing.

Look at Trump's polling. It's unique among Presidents, and unique among American Presidents.....no matter what he did over 4 years, his approval was in the high 80's or 90's for R voters. What he said and did was immaterial to Republican voters.

I think we're saying the same thing, just in different ways.[/quote]
Roughly? Yes! And I'm enjoying the discussion.

Reagan's approval among Republicans was related to actions and policies. That ship has sailed for the R party. Which is a serious problem if you ask me.

I agree wholeheartedly--it is indeed a serious problem. There is a large segment of the population that is pissed off at liberal mindsets and policies becoming more and more pervasive in American culture.

That's coming from Right Wing Media. Because Republicans no longer have one. single. solitary. solution to help America's working class. These outlets give Right Wing Americans pointless cultural clickbait: keep them perpetually angry and clicking, lining the pockets of the folks running these sites. So what happens? Molehllls become mountains. How many Trans athletes are there versus women athletes? What is it? A million to one? But you wouldn't know it if you paid any attention to clickbait.

Worse still, most consumers (and most especially the elderly) simply don't understand that when you click on something? What you're telling the internet and the folks who pay for advertising on these sites is: "More of this please". So that's what they get: nonstop stories about how the gays are taking over America, and converting America's children. As I"ve said many times, if you click on stories that tell you water is wet? You're gonna see a whole mess of "water is wet" stories on your media feed and advertisements. This, obviously, creates a self-fulfilling prophecy were TrumpFans keep reading about "the gays" and "trans people' day after day after day. They wind up thinking: OMG! Trans is taking over the world!

Yeah, no. They're not.

And notice no one does anything to fix this simple athletic situation? I'm 100% for making trans males compete with males. They still get to compete, right? So what's the problem? There isn't one. Fake problem solved. They don't fix this stuff for the same reason they will never fix immigration: they want a permanently angry base to keep voting for them over these fake issues. And yep, the Dems do this one, too.

And really, how many HS competitions are inherently unfair? Ever see a Basketball team of sub- 6 foot kids have to play against a lineup of 6'3"+ teams? In what world is that fair? Or how about HS lacrosse teams that can recruit players facing public school teams that are stuck with whomever lives in the school district. Ask a Republican if they think one lesson we should teach kids is: life is unfair? You'd get 99% responding: you bet we should teach kids that. So where'd that attitude run off to when it comes to a handful of trans kids in sports? But I digress, and agree that trans-males should compete with males.

One for instance--go survey female athletes and ask them how they feel about being forced to compete against biological males. I don't think folks realize the deep seated, seething and festering resentment there is in this country toward some of the liberal agendas being jammed down their throats. They see Trump as their only hope for respite.

Untrue. They see all REPUBLICANS as respite from this. You're explaining here why these voters vote for Republicans, not why they nominate and vote for Trump every chance they've had over 12 years now.

Whether they are misinformed, closed-minded, white trash, un or under-educated, whatever--they're enraged. And if Trump is the only candidate on the Republican ticket come November, they'll vote for him again by their tens of millions as they did in 2020. I have no stinky idea what will happen in November, but this country may very well get another rude surprise.

I am 100% of the belief that Trump will win.

The problem that Trumpfans that aren't rich don't get is: just like last time, Trump will shovel more money to the libs and lefties that you just told me these voters despise. Working class Trumpsters will fall further behind as Trump's ACTUAL policies pump more money to the top 20% earners who are in these dreaded liberal Universities......Ivies, top Public schools, etc. The nation's top 20% earners vote Dem. And you know as well as I do that the gap between rich and poor has been put on steroids in America.

At SOME POINT, Republicans need to help the working class. Can you name one single Federal R policy from the last 24 years that has economially helped the American working class in a material and sustainable way? I can't. Their base keeps falling further and further behind.

THIS is why Trump is a problem, imho. Don't care about his bluster, or appeal to shiny yet pointless culture war nonsense. Not only does the POTUS not control American culture in a meaningful way (it's the other way around), "sticking it to the gays" doesn't put food on a TrumpVoter's table, nor educate or train their kids for 21st century jobs.

The issue the R Party is confronted with this: they TRIED trickle down, and low taxes for the rich. And the rich, by and large, are more liberal and educated that the R Base. They have to (gasp!) try liberal policies that have worked well for every other 1st world nation on earth: more fair taxation. Free Education and training for the working class. And most of all? Free health care, as we're watching the life expectancy and every other health metric for the poor fall off a cliff, right before our eyes.

What's the Republican plan? No one can tell me. Not the voters. Not their national leaders. In short: when the circus is over for the working class, these folks walk back to their cars? The reality is that the American working class is F'ed.

Appreciate the discourse.

[a fan]

-- Trump did not start any new wars. He ended the war on ISIS by unleashing the ROE & letting his regional commander finish the fight asap, then reduced our ME presence. He also stopped our bleeding in Afghanistan, drew down our forces there & left in place a conditions based exit plan.
-- Abraham Accords
-- unleashed our energy sector. Refilled the SPRO. Attained energy self-sufficiency.
-- Got NATO off their collective asses & jolted them into rebuilding & rearming (obtw -- with US made weapons systems).

Here's the thing.

You didn't vote for him. So you don't rep the group we're discussing here that plainly doesn't care about policy. Policy DOES matter to you. Which is why you and I can so easily come up with candidates that we'd both be more than happy to put in the White House.

[Farfromgeneva]

Not to get too far off topic here, but I get the impression from talking to a lot of different people, that ultimately, there is a large segment of the population in America that doesn't care what Trump does in his personal life or even, to a degree, his political life, so long as he continues to talk about and "champion" his particular philosophy on how things should be in America--which obviously resonates with a lot of people. In other words, people are more concerned with what he does, the policies he enacts while he's in office as opposed to what he says and does.

Respectfully, you have it backwards. These voters are 1000% times more interested in what he says....and pays ZERO attention to what he does.

Pretty easy to figure this out: quiz them.

1. ask them if our troops hit any new countries (his comment on endless wars), or pulled out of the ones troops were already in
2. ask him what he did about China (standing up to China) and whether our imports from there went up or down.
3. here's a fun trick question: ask them how much Trump cut Federal spending (draining the swamp).
4. ask if he fixing immigration.

From there? I'd bet they can't name the things that Trump DID do. Like the Federal prison reform bill. Or massive tax cuts for the rich. Or three MASSIVE spending bills BEFORE Covid spending hit.

It has NOTHING to do with policy. They want his speeches. They want him to "stick it to the libs"....which to them, also means the press and the DoJ, FBI, etc., even though they were all run by R's and Trump appointees when Trump was there.

I know folks who were very happy with some of the things he DID while in office, and didn't care about his stupid tweets and/or his stupid comments and/or the other idiotic or sordid stuff he did and said.

Your response is an absolutely perfect modern day example of this:

Not even close!

I'm not asking about some intentionally obscure speech or policy...which is what the snobby aristocrat is doing in this clip.

I'm asking SIMPLE POLICY questions that are DIRECTLY related to Trump's very specific campaign planks that he said over and over and over and over.

For the folks you're telling me told you in person that they like the policies he executed? Name them. Just a few would suffice.

And for those folks? Ask them my above questions. See what they say. Especially ask them about the massive spending bills pre-Covid. I'd be stunned if any of them noticed that he did that. Happy to be corrected.

I, too, liked PLENTY of small things Trump did. And I just named one: Federal prison reform. I also thought Trump would use our military as a toy: I'm THRILLED he didn't. I also like that Trump gave Covid-related powers to each State's Governors, and didn't Federalize the rules and responses...which he could have EASILY done. I could name plenty more.

Edit to add: ask those same folks to name a few policies that Biden and Obama had that they liked. If they can't name any? There's your clue that policy isn't all that important, and they're supporting the person (or the letter R or D), not the policy.

Whether they are right or wrong or know the specifics is irrelevant—that’s what I’ve heard a number of people say, and bottom line—that’s what they believe--they like the things he DID while he was in office. Period.

I wouldn’t ask folks these questions you’re suggesting I ask. That’s not me. When folks are holding forth about Trump or Biden, or whomever—I listen. I’ve learned that trying to have a face-to-face discussion about politicians and political issues is a frickin minefield. No more surprise explosions for me please—thank you very much.

It’s well nigh impossible to get folks to change their mind about politics anyway. So I don’t waste my time. I shared my observations at the beginning of this thread. Ain’t tryin to proselytize me nobody.

It’s been posited here that the more the media and the judicial system comes down on Trump, it makes more people support him. That seems to suggest that people change their minds about him. Believe his 35% base is unchanged no matter what Trump says or does and no matter what the media or critics say or do. I agree with you on that.

But not because of policy I’m sure you don’t agree that is the true reasoning for those folks.