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Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:35 pm
by Brooklyn
^ Image

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:10 pm
by Brooklyn
While delusionals on this forum remain hellbent on defending Israel, the majority of the world remains against it:


https://twitter.com/Megatron_ron/status ... 3998242213


https://twitter.com/ASE/status/17222806 ... 4804223290


https://twitter.com/IranObserver0/statu ... 2004570471


https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleea ... index.html




It is clear that the majority of the world defend the Palestinians who have been victims of Israeli Apartheid for over 70 years. I have posted numerous articles which prove it (most written by Jewish writers and many conservatives) but trying to persuade forum Palestinian haters has been hopeless. This because they are so emotional and lacking the rationality to address the issues stated in the articles.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:23 am
by jhu72
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:39 pm Pretty bold move.

"An Israeli diplomat tried to persuade a leading New York college to cancel a course about the growing debate over whether the Jewish state practices a form of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The Israeli consul for public diplomacy in New York, Yuval Donio-Gideon, took the highly unusual step of contacting Bard College earlier this year to object to the course, Apartheid in Israel-Palestine, on the grounds that it breached the controversial International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism.

When the college defended the course, it came under pressure from pro-Israel groups and from at least one major donor. Robert Epstein, the property developer and co-owner of the Boston Celtics, resigned from Bard’s board of trustees in protest at Bard’s refusal to cancel the subject.

The course was designed and taught by Nathan Thrall, a Jewish American writer and researcher who lives in Jerusalem.

“The Israeli consulate contacted Bard and said they would like the course to be cancelled. There was mention of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which is the standard means of attempting to silence criticism of Israel,” said Thrall."

How about Israel concerns itself with freedom of speech and expression in Israel? Pretty sure we can handle the debate by ourselves, thank you. Epstein didn't like it, so he protested. See how it works?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... eid-debate
... said it once, will say it again. The Israeli's are doing themselves no favors with their attempts to control speech in the US - playing the any speech which is critical of the government is antisemitic, game. They think repeating it and saying it louder will change minds. They are losing the debate and looking like they are just gaslighting the world, the same way as their enemy. They need to STFU!

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:37 am
by Farfromgeneva
JoeMauer89 wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:11 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:39 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:22 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:46 pm How come your incapable of proving it yourself? Never mind…

Another accusation.

Well, let's put it this way, I agree with Mr Richman. I do not see any reason for dissenting from his well defended thesis at all. However if you feel he is wrong, by all means let's discuss it.

Oh wait. That involves issues. Something so many of you pro war types are incapable of doing since you insist on personalities as opposed to discussing issues because you have no rational basis for your indefensible ideas.

Next ...
So I've never discussed an issue.

Whining about accusations while calling everyone pro war, throwing out silly challenges in the abstract that are petty and referring to everyone as right wingers. But no accusations.. None.
FFG,

It's a lost cause with that poster. Don't waste your time any further. That poster spends too much perusing various forums on the internet and has completely lost sense of reality.

Joe
I’m in pugilistic mode - but the bell hasn’t quite rung on the round yet. This is a diversion at this point for me when I need mini breaks from work. Can pop in and out while doing the 15 things on my daily work agenda. Stuff is on fire-people should be setting up reservoirs for themselves but they won’t and then they’ll get or complain someone else got a bailout at some point in the next 3-5yrs. This is what 16-18hr days in your 40s looks like Joe. You’ve got about what 7-9yrs so enjoy a world of volatility every 5-10yrs until boomers give up control of the system.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:41 am
by cradleandshoot
jhu72 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:23 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:39 pm Pretty bold move.

"An Israeli diplomat tried to persuade a leading New York college to cancel a course about the growing debate over whether the Jewish state practices a form of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The Israeli consul for public diplomacy in New York, Yuval Donio-Gideon, took the highly unusual step of contacting Bard College earlier this year to object to the course, Apartheid in Israel-Palestine, on the grounds that it breached the controversial International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism.

When the college defended the course, it came under pressure from pro-Israel groups and from at least one major donor. Robert Epstein, the property developer and co-owner of the Boston Celtics, resigned from Bard’s board of trustees in protest at Bard’s refusal to cancel the subject.

The course was designed and taught by Nathan Thrall, a Jewish American writer and researcher who lives in Jerusalem.

“The Israeli consulate contacted Bard and said they would like the course to be cancelled. There was mention of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which is the standard means of attempting to silence criticism of Israel,” said Thrall."

How about Israel concerns itself with freedom of speech and expression in Israel? Pretty sure we can handle the debate by ourselves, thank you. Epstein didn't like it, so he protested. See how it works?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... eid-debate
... said it once, will say it again. The Israeli's are doing themselves no favors with their attempts to control speech in the US - playing the any speech which is critical of the government is antisemitic, game. They think repeating it and saying it louder will change minds. They are losing the debate and looking like they are just gaslighting the world, the same way as their enemy. They need to STFU!
You sure told those god damn Israelis. They must be shaking in their boots. :D

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:44 am
by Farfromgeneva
jhu72 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:23 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:39 pm Pretty bold move.

"An Israeli diplomat tried to persuade a leading New York college to cancel a course about the growing debate over whether the Jewish state practices a form of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The Israeli consul for public diplomacy in New York, Yuval Donio-Gideon, took the highly unusual step of contacting Bard College earlier this year to object to the course, Apartheid in Israel-Palestine, on the grounds that it breached the controversial International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism.

When the college defended the course, it came under pressure from pro-Israel groups and from at least one major donor. Robert Epstein, the property developer and co-owner of the Boston Celtics, resigned from Bard’s board of trustees in protest at Bard’s refusal to cancel the subject.

The course was designed and taught by Nathan Thrall, a Jewish American writer and researcher who lives in Jerusalem.

“The Israeli consulate contacted Bard and said they would like the course to be cancelled. There was mention of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which is the standard means of attempting to silence criticism of Israel,” said Thrall."

How about Israel concerns itself with freedom of speech and expression in Israel? Pretty sure we can handle the debate by ourselves, thank you. Epstein didn't like it, so he protested. See how it works?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... eid-debate
... said it once, will say it again. The Israeli's are doing themselves no favors with their attempts to control speech in the US - playing the any speech which is critical of the government is antisemitic, game. They think repeating it and saying it louder will change minds. They are losing the debate and looking like they are just gaslighting the world, the same way as their enemy. They need to STFU!
This was happening with the Israeli govt 5-6yrs ago though wasn’t it? I swear I was reading economist stories pre Covid about Netanyahu becoming authoritarian and trending towards fascist tendencies in the wave that came mid decade with trump. If that’s incorrect and it’s more recent please correct me but this should be be a surprise. It’s the way of the world now. Nobody wants French style pontificating anymore, they want Marquis De Sade and the Guillotine.

Also hasn’t this been the case in the US a lot? I’m surrounded by Jewish family and friends but most by brith and we’re good once they got their barmitsvah cheddar and/or couldn’t go to the Jewish hookup summer camps anymore and otherwise see a synagogue 1x every 12-24mo so not the most passionate except my concert sister. But I see the “that’s anti Semitic” tossed around quickly a lot here in the US.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:53 am
by cradleandshoot
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:44 am
jhu72 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:23 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:39 pm Pretty bold move.

"An Israeli diplomat tried to persuade a leading New York college to cancel a course about the growing debate over whether the Jewish state practices a form of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The Israeli consul for public diplomacy in New York, Yuval Donio-Gideon, took the highly unusual step of contacting Bard College earlier this year to object to the course, Apartheid in Israel-Palestine, on the grounds that it breached the controversial International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism.

When the college defended the course, it came under pressure from pro-Israel groups and from at least one major donor. Robert Epstein, the property developer and co-owner of the Boston Celtics, resigned from Bard’s board of trustees in protest at Bard’s refusal to cancel the subject.

The course was designed and taught by Nathan Thrall, a Jewish American writer and researcher who lives in Jerusalem.

“The Israeli consulate contacted Bard and said they would like the course to be cancelled. There was mention of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which is the standard means of attempting to silence criticism of Israel,” said Thrall."

How about Israel concerns itself with freedom of speech and expression in Israel? Pretty sure we can handle the debate by ourselves, thank you. Epstein didn't like it, so he protested. See how it works?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... eid-debate
... said it once, will say it again. The Israeli's are doing themselves no favors with their attempts to control speech in the US - playing the any speech which is critical of the government is antisemitic, game. They think repeating it and saying it louder will change minds. They are losing the debate and looking like they are just gaslighting the world, the same way as their enemy. They need to STFU!
This was happening with the Israeli govt 5-6yrs ago though wasn’t it? I swear I was reading economist stories pre Covid about Netanyahu becoming authoritarian and trending towards fascist tendencies in the wave that came mid decade with trump. If that’s incorrect and it’s more recent please correct me but this should be be a surprise. It’s the way of the world now. Nobody wants French style pontificating anymore, they want Marquis De Sade and the Guillotine.

Also hasn’t this been the case in the US a lot? I’m surrounded by Jewish family and friends but most by brith and we’re good once they got their barmitsvah cheddar and/or couldn’t go to the Jewish hookup summer camps anymore and otherwise see a synagogue 1x every 12-24mo so not the most passionate except my concert sister. But I see the “that’s anti Semitic” tossed around quickly a lot here in the US.
What a coincidence, I hear " that's racist" tossed around everyday in the US. I'm seeing a pattern of hyperbole here.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 7:36 am
by Farfromgeneva
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:53 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:44 am
jhu72 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:23 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:39 pm Pretty bold move.

"An Israeli diplomat tried to persuade a leading New York college to cancel a course about the growing debate over whether the Jewish state practices a form of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The Israeli consul for public diplomacy in New York, Yuval Donio-Gideon, took the highly unusual step of contacting Bard College earlier this year to object to the course, Apartheid in Israel-Palestine, on the grounds that it breached the controversial International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism.

When the college defended the course, it came under pressure from pro-Israel groups and from at least one major donor. Robert Epstein, the property developer and co-owner of the Boston Celtics, resigned from Bard’s board of trustees in protest at Bard’s refusal to cancel the subject.

The course was designed and taught by Nathan Thrall, a Jewish American writer and researcher who lives in Jerusalem.

“The Israeli consulate contacted Bard and said they would like the course to be cancelled. There was mention of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which is the standard means of attempting to silence criticism of Israel,” said Thrall."

How about Israel concerns itself with freedom of speech and expression in Israel? Pretty sure we can handle the debate by ourselves, thank you. Epstein didn't like it, so he protested. See how it works?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... eid-debate
... said it once, will say it again. The Israeli's are doing themselves no favors with their attempts to control speech in the US - playing the any speech which is critical of the government is antisemitic, game. They think repeating it and saying it louder will change minds. They are losing the debate and looking like they are just gaslighting the world, the same way as their enemy. They need to STFU!
This was happening with the Israeli govt 5-6yrs ago though wasn’t it? I swear I was reading economist stories pre Covid about Netanyahu becoming authoritarian and trending towards fascist tendencies in the wave that came mid decade with trump. If that’s incorrect and it’s more recent please correct me but this should be be a surprise. It’s the way of the world now. Nobody wants French style pontificating anymore, they want Marquis De Sade and the Guillotine.

Also hasn’t this been the case in the US a lot? I’m surrounded by Jewish family and friends but most by brith and we’re good once they got their barmitsvah cheddar and/or couldn’t go to the Jewish hookup summer camps anymore and otherwise see a synagogue 1x every 12-24mo so not the most passionate except my concert sister. But I see the “that’s anti Semitic” tossed around quickly a lot here in the US.
What a coincidence, I hear " that's racist" tossed around everyday in the US. I'm seeing a pattern of hyperbole here.
Coincidences happen all the time. Should go take you’re deed on your home to Turning Stone and deploy a gambling strategy of seeing coincidences.

https://kevineikenberry.com/leadership/ ... cognition/

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:36 am
by dislaxxic
Apologies if this got discussed up-thread...

I'm hearing all these Zionist pundits throwing out the "what if Mexico attacked Florida and murdered 1,400 Floridians...would we support a cease-fire with THESE people??" IMO, this is a dangerous, false equivalency. Brushing off criticism of their response strategy with a real red herring.

I'd ask them to carry the metaphor they love all the way out...

If the murderous Mexicans then retreated to, say, Tijuana, a heavily populated urban area that was, say, walled off to prohibit civilians from fleeing...and said murderers were hiding in tunnels under hospitals and schools, governed by a terrorist city council totally separate and apart from the larger Mexican government...that was dedicated to "wiping Florida off the map"...well, what then?? A much more evolved strategy seems very much in order...

Hamas needs to be destroyed and totally marginalized, to be sure. Quickly.

Pounding Gaza to a bloody pulp and murdering innocent civilians is not a viable or moral option. Easy. Soothing to Israeli's that want to wipe Palestinians off the map of the world. Not a solution to this most intractable issue.

..

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:40 am
by cradleandshoot
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:36 am Apologies if this got discussed up-thread...

I'm hearing all these Zionist pundits throwing out the "what if Mexico attacked Florida and murdered 1,400 Floridians...would we support a cease-fire with THESE people??" IMO, this is a dangerous, false equivalency. Brushing off criticism of their response strategy with a real red herring.

I'd ask them to carry the metaphor they love all the way out...

If the murderous Mexicans then retreated to, say, Tijuana, a heavily populated urban area that was, say, walled off to prohibit civilians from fleeing...and said murderers were hiding in tunnels under hospitals and schools, governed by a terrorist city council totally separate and apart from the larger Mexican government...that was dedicated to "wiping Florida off the map"...well, what then?? A much more evolved strategy seems very much in order...

Hamas needs to be destroyed and totally marginalized, to be sure. Quickly.

Pounding Gaza to a bloody pulp and murdering innocent civilians is not a viable or moral option. Easy. Soothing to Israeli's that want to wipe Palestinians off the map of the world. Not a solution to this most intractable issue.

..
All of these hypothetical scenarios lead strait up to the land of absurdity. The issue at hand is problematic enough as it is.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:47 am
by cradleandshoot
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 7:36 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:53 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:44 am
jhu72 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:23 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:39 pm Pretty bold move.

"An Israeli diplomat tried to persuade a leading New York college to cancel a course about the growing debate over whether the Jewish state practices a form of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territories.

The Israeli consul for public diplomacy in New York, Yuval Donio-Gideon, took the highly unusual step of contacting Bard College earlier this year to object to the course, Apartheid in Israel-Palestine, on the grounds that it breached the controversial International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism.

When the college defended the course, it came under pressure from pro-Israel groups and from at least one major donor. Robert Epstein, the property developer and co-owner of the Boston Celtics, resigned from Bard’s board of trustees in protest at Bard’s refusal to cancel the subject.

The course was designed and taught by Nathan Thrall, a Jewish American writer and researcher who lives in Jerusalem.

“The Israeli consulate contacted Bard and said they would like the course to be cancelled. There was mention of the IHRA definition of antisemitism which is the standard means of attempting to silence criticism of Israel,” said Thrall."

How about Israel concerns itself with freedom of speech and expression in Israel? Pretty sure we can handle the debate by ourselves, thank you. Epstein didn't like it, so he protested. See how it works?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... eid-debate
... said it once, will say it again. The Israeli's are doing themselves no favors with their attempts to control speech in the US - playing the any speech which is critical of the government is antisemitic, game. They think repeating it and saying it louder will change minds. They are losing the debate and looking like they are just gaslighting the world, the same way as their enemy. They need to STFU!
This was happening with the Israeli govt 5-6yrs ago though wasn’t it? I swear I was reading economist stories pre Covid about Netanyahu becoming authoritarian and trending towards fascist tendencies in the wave that came mid decade with trump. If that’s incorrect and it’s more recent please correct me but this should be be a surprise. It’s the way of the world now. Nobody wants French style pontificating anymore, they want Marquis De Sade and the Guillotine.

Also hasn’t this been the case in the US a lot? I’m surrounded by Jewish family and friends but most by brith and we’re good once they got their barmitsvah cheddar and/or couldn’t go to the Jewish hookup summer camps anymore and otherwise see a synagogue 1x every 12-24mo so not the most passionate except my concert sister. But I see the “that’s anti Semitic” tossed around quickly a lot here in the US.
What a coincidence, I hear " that's racist" tossed around everyday in the US. I'm seeing a pattern of hyperbole here.
Coincidences happen all the time. Should go take you’re deed on your home to Turning Stone and deploy a gambling strategy of seeing coincidences.

https://kevineikenberry.com/leadership/ ... cognition/
I'll take that into consideration. The wife and I are going to Del Lago after we eat our surf and turf on Thanksgiving. No deed to the house but we are working making sure when we die there is no more than 5 cents in our bank accounts.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:29 am
by MDlaxfan76
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:36 am Apologies if this got discussed up-thread...

I'm hearing all these Zionist pundits throwing out the "what if Mexico attacked Florida and murdered 1,400 Floridians...would we support a cease-fire with THESE people??" IMO, this is a dangerous, false equivalency. Brushing off criticism of their response strategy with a real red herring.

I'd ask them to carry the metaphor they love all the way out...

If the murderous Mexicans then retreated to, say, Tijuana, a heavily populated urban area that was, say, walled off to prohibit civilians from fleeing...and said murderers were hiding in tunnels under hospitals and schools, governed by a terrorist city council totally separate and apart from the larger Mexican government...that was dedicated to "wiping Florida off the map"...well, what then?? A much more evolved strategy seems very much in order...

Hamas needs to be destroyed and totally marginalized, to be sure. Quickly.

Pounding Gaza to a bloody pulp and murdering innocent civilians is not a viable or moral option. Easy. Soothing to Israeli's that want to wipe Palestinians off the map of the world. Not a solution to this most intractable issue.

..
mmm, yes a weak metaphor, but if we wanted to force fit something, it would be more akin to a terrorist group from Puerto Rico coming to Florida and killing 50-60,000 American civilians, Palm Beach to Ft Lauderdale during spring break to catch all those kids partying and defenseless. And with Puerto Rico, still under US 'control' but embargoed and controlled access, with the Puerto Rican 'government/terrorist org' declaring that they and the Native Americans and the descendants of slaves in the US, and Cubans, intend to drive all others into the sea...from sea to shining sea. And with this actually being a credible threat as Canada, and multiple South and Central American countries, and the UK all having previously in the not distant past having attempted to do actually that by full scale military force; and indeed another large terrorist group (Hezbollah) massing on the border of Canada...and with China (Iran) and some others financing the terrorist groups...

Still a bad metaphor, but getting closer to the Israel-Hamas situation re Gaza.

For instance, Gaza is not an island, it sits side by side with the Israeli population, can send rockets easily and has tunnels into Israel and a mere wall can be breached....and it's dug in with tunnels and military infrastructure as a military fortress below its civilian population...

Don't get me wrong, the moral issues of the civilian deaths are large. And the current strategy could well be counterproductive, but I'm not sure how Hamas and its infrastructure can be destroyed and rooted out without either large Israeli fighting force casualties or large Gaza casualties because Hamas uses them as human shields.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:37 am
by Brooklyn
Why do we let Israel and Ukraine wag the US dog?
In America's weird empire, dependents call the shots. Soon we will be suffering the consequences.



https://responsiblestatecraft.org/us-israel-ukraine/


The alliance system of the United States is frequently called an empire, and for good reason. But it is a peculiar form of empire, in which the metropolitan center seems directed and ruled by the periphery. In the classic idea of empire, rule flowed from the top down. Not in this one.

This inversion is nowhere more evident than in the relationship between the United States and Israel. Biden responded to the October 7 attacks by giving Israel total support for its aim of destroying Hamas. The same pattern is apparent in policy toward Ukraine. For 18 months, the Biden administration did not dare to set limits on Ukraine’s war aims, though these anticipated, absurdly, total victory over Russia, with Vladimir Putin in the dock at the end.

These certitudes, however, have begun to shake. Within the administration, there seems to have been a great awakening over the last few weeks that neither course is sustainable. The gist of recent reporting is as follows: the Ukrainians are losing the war and have to acknowledge that fact, better now than later. The Israelis are behaving barbarically and have got to be reined in, else our reputation in the world is ruined.

On the Ukraine front, there were two bombshells. One was an NBC story that painted a dire picture of the military situation and reported that U.S. and European diplomats were telling Ukraine of the need to restrict its aims. It’s too late in the day to hope for anything other than a stalemate, said one former administration official: “it’s time to do a deal.”

The other was a long essay in Time that characterized Zelensky as a messianic and fanatical figure, out of touch with Ukraine’s worsening prospects. Corruption is even worse than alleged. The West is scraping the bottom of the barrel for key military items. Ukraine’s military can’t find new recruits. More appropriations from Congress, even the $61 billion requested by the administration, can solve none of these problems.

For 18 months, the Biden administration insisted that Ukraine’s aims were wholly its own to determine and that the United States would support them regardless. With Ukraine’s summer offensive having met with almost total failure, the administration appears to be getting cold feet. This is all very hush-hush, with “quiet” discussions reputedly going on behind the scenes. It’s probable, indeed, that Biden’s advisers are divided. Though official policy hasn’t changed a whit, the impetus to do so is clearly there.

The bind over Israel is yet more acute. According to widespread reports, Biden and his advisers believe that Israel is embarked on a mad project in Gaza. They see that the United States — having given Israel a green light, a blank check, and tons of bombs — will be held directly responsible for the awful humanitarian consequences. They don’t think Israel has defined a coherent endgame. They fear they are presiding over a moral enormity. They see a precipitous collapse in support from others.

Over the past month, Biden has warned the Israelis not to act out of anger and vengeance in retaliation for October 7, advised against a ground invasion of Gaza, and insisted that Israel seek to avoid civilian deaths as much as possible. Use smaller bombs, say Biden’s military advisers. Eroding support, his administration told the Israelis, “will have dire strategic consequences for Israel Defense Forces operations against Hamas.” Last weekend, Secretary of State Antony Blinken went to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with these ideas and with a request for a “humanitarian pause.” Bibi’s response: ain’t gonna happen.

I have an idea. The United States could threaten to suspend military shipments to Israel if it failed to agree to a ceasefire. That might make an impression. Defying Israel, however, is something that no president since George H.W. Bush has been willing to do. The U.S. approach over the last 30 years, as now, has been in the voice of a steadfast friend: “This is really for your own good, but we wouldn’t dare demand it of you.”

Hug the Israelis tight and reassure them endlessly of your undying commitment; that was the way to win an argument with them.

There have been some Israeli leaders who responded to this approach, but Benjamin Netanyahu was never one of them. Bill Clinton’s comment after first meeting with Netanyahu in 1996 — “Who’s the heck superpower here? — reflects Bibi’s considered judgment that he can call forth domestic opposition in the United States that will nullify any threat from a U.S. president.

Today, 66% of Americans want a ceasefire, according to one poll, but less than five percent of the House of Representatives does, so maybe Bibi knows whereof he speaks. AIPAC is busy with attack ads against the few brave congresspeople who have criticized Israel and called for a ceasefire.

But Biden has to worry about America’s larger role in the world and is alive to the likelihood that what is coming in Gaza will wreck America’s legitimacy. Who in the non-West could ever bear again a lecture from the United States on its zealous commitment to human rights? What would this do to America’s case against Russia?

On present trends — no exit to the Sinai for the mass of Gaza’s population, the complete collapse of the health and sanitation systems, relentless Israeli military pressure and economic blockade, 1.5 million already displaced — it is difficult to see how the total casualty count among Gazans avoids numbers in the hundreds of thousands. Probably many more will die from disease and epidemics than from bullets and bombs. The experience, as Netanyahu has said, will be remembered “for decades to come.” What if it registers in world public opinion as an historic crime?

Incredibly, advocates of total war against Hamas invoke Dresden, Hiroshima, and other atrocities to justify their course, neglecting that neither Germany nor Japan had anyone to weep for them after the war, whereas Palestinians have 1.8 billion Muslims to weep over them today.

The obvious fact is that Israel cannot pursue to the end its aim of destroying Hamas without causing death on a biblical scale. There is no reason whatsoever for the United States to embrace these aims.

Biden’s choice is to get tough with the Israelis or to go along with what he fears is going to be a gigantic catastrophe.

There are precedents for getting tough, but they are admittedly distant ones. Dwight Eisenhower did it in 1956 over the Anglo-French-Israeli Suez adventure. Bush I did it in 1991 over loan guarantees to Israel.

But the most resonant example is 1982, when Ronald Reagan told Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin to cease Israeli’s bombardment of Beirut. “Menachem,” Reagan said, “this is a holocaust.” To Reagan’s surprise, his threat of an agonizing reappraisal worked. “I didn’t know I had that kind of power,” he told his aide Mike Deaver. At the time of Reagan’s threat, the death toll from two and a half months of war approached 20,000, of which nearly half were civilians.

Can Biden summon the will to confront Netanyahu? Will his administration force Ukraine to the bargaining table?

In our weird empire, where dependents call the shots, deeply embedded tendencies dictate a negative answer to both questions, though wise policy would dictate positive ones. Perhaps the time is ripe for a new policy in which America consults its own national interests rather than theirs.




Writer is correct that this is an unsustainable policy. Contrary to the mythic beliefs of those in the pro war crowd, the USA has absolutely no interest in any such overseas conflicts. Nowhere in the Constitution is there any provision for allowing foreign countries to dictate to the USA what its policies are to be whether in day to day operations or in any war considerations. As the writer says, it's time to prioritize our interests, not theirs.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 11:50 am
by jhu72
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:36 am Apologies if this got discussed up-thread...

I'm hearing all these Zionist pundits throwing out the "what if Mexico attacked Florida and murdered 1,400 Floridians...would we support a cease-fire with THESE people??" IMO, this is a dangerous, false equivalency. Brushing off criticism of their response strategy with a real red herring.

I'd ask them to carry the metaphor they love all the way out...

If the murderous Mexicans then retreated to, say, Tijuana, a heavily populated urban area that was, say, walled off to prohibit civilians from fleeing...and said murderers were hiding in tunnels under hospitals and schools, governed by a terrorist city council totally separate and apart from the larger Mexican government...that was dedicated to "wiping Florida off the map"...well, what then?? A much more evolved strategy seems very much in order...

Hamas needs to be destroyed and totally marginalized, to be sure. Quickly.

Pounding Gaza to a bloody pulp and murdering innocent civilians is not a viable or moral option. Easy. Soothing to Israeli's that want to wipe Palestinians off the map of the world. Not a solution to this most intractable issue.

..
... do I get to pick the 1400?? ;)

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:06 pm
by cradleandshoot
jhu72 wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 11:50 am
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:36 am Apologies if this got discussed up-thread...

I'm hearing all these Zionist pundits throwing out the "what if Mexico attacked Florida and murdered 1,400 Floridians...would we support a cease-fire with THESE people??" IMO, this is a dangerous, false equivalency. Brushing off criticism of their response strategy with a real red herring.

I'd ask them to carry the metaphor they love all the way out...

If the murderous Mexicans then retreated to, say, Tijuana, a heavily populated urban area that was, say, walled off to prohibit civilians from fleeing...and said murderers were hiding in tunnels under hospitals and schools, governed by a terrorist city council totally separate and apart from the larger Mexican government...that was dedicated to "wiping Florida off the map"...well, what then?? A much more evolved strategy seems very much in order...

Hamas needs to be destroyed and totally marginalized, to be sure. Quickly.

Pounding Gaza to a bloody pulp and murdering innocent civilians is not a viable or moral option. Easy. Soothing to Israeli's that want to wipe Palestinians off the map of the world. Not a solution to this most intractable issue.

..
... do I get to pick the 1400?? ;)
Your irrelevant to the discussion. You should be on the front lines in Ukraine killing Russians. Maybe not with a rifle but certainly a brief conversations with you would send massive #s of Russian soldiers calling it quits.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:44 pm
by old salt
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/11/ ... term=third

Yes, Obama Is Complicit

By THE EDITORS, November 7, 2023

Speaking to former staffers on Pod Save America at an event to celebrate the 15th anniversary of his election, Barack Obama decided to address the “complexity” of a crisis that began when Hamas slaughtered 1,400 Israelis ranging from babies to senior citizens, burned civilians, raped women, and took 230 hostages.

While Hamas’s actions were “horrific,” Obama said, “what is also true is that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable.” He then went on an extended on-the-one-hand/on-the-other-hand discourse, before reflecting, “If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth and then you have to admit nobody’s hands are clean. That all of us are complicit to some degree.”

To start, the blame for October 7 and all of the events that followed it rests squarely with the terrorist group that perpetrated the attacks. But to the extent that there’s more blame to go around, it’s worth separating Obama from the rest of us. Unlike Obama, the rest of “us” did not get to be president of the United States and steer policy in the region for nearly a decade.

Obama referred to his presidency in characteristically self-aggrandizing fashion, patting himself on the back for all of his amazing effort: “As hard as I tried, and I’ve got the scars to prove it, but there’s a part of me that’s still saying, ‘Well, was there something else I could have done?’”

We have some ideas.

Obama entered office in 2009 as one of the most hostile presidents to Israel in the history of American relations with the Jewish state. Meeting with the leaders of major Jewish organizations, he said he would intentionally attempt to create more distance between the U.S. and Israel. “When there is no daylight, Israel just sits on the sidelines, and that erodes our credibility with the Arab states,” he said, the Washington Post reported. All his policy of “daylight” accomplished was to convince Palestinians to demand more concessions before negotiating a peace deal, and to make Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu more suspicious of signing a deal based on security guarantees from Obama. Even as Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas repeatedly rebuffed Obama on peace talks, his administration consistently pointed the finger at Israel as the primary barrier to getting a deal. This, even after the PA signed a unification agreement with Hamas, which ruled Gaza but was splintered from the government.

In Obama’s second term, his foreign policy was focused primarily on securing a nuclear deal with Iran. Much of the criticism of the deal has focused on what was in it — i.e., that it delivered billions in sanctions relief while allowing Iran to bolster its conventional military and preserve a glide path toward a nuclear weapon. What is more overlooked is the fact that in its desperate pursuit of the nuclear deal, the Obama administration turned a blind eye toward Iran’s malign behavior around the globe, despite its being the leading state sponsor of terrorism. This included funding, training, and transferring weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah. In fact, a 2017 investigative report by Politico revealed, “In its determination to secure a nuclear deal with Iran, the Obama administration derailed an ambitious law enforcement campaign targeting drug trafficking by the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah, even as it was funneling cocaine into the United States.” Money raised by the drug trafficking helped fund Hezbollah’s terrorism against Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere.

This should have been no surprise given that one of the key players in crafting Iran policy was Robert Malley, who had been sidelined from the 2008 Obama campaign after it was revealed that he met with Hamas. (Malley served as President Biden’s special envoy for Iran and was trying to revive the nuclear deal before he was suspended by the State Department over an investigation into his security clearance.)

At the end of the Obama administration, Hamas was much richer, stronger, and more accepted than at the start of his administration.

Obama may have had more subtlety than Representative Ilhan “It’s all about the Benjamins” Omar, but the antisemitic rhetoric we’re hearing today was mainstreamed during his administration. He appointed Chuck Hagel as secretary of Defense; Hagel had once lamented that “the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here” and repeatedly slammed “lobbyists” and “money” for working against the Iran deal rather than considering American interests.

Obama was indeed complicit in the troubling events of our times. But if he’s going to reflect on his own failed legacy, he should leave the rest of us out of it.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:57 pm
by MDlaxfan76
Typical of the disaster the Review has become.

I listened to the full podcast as I'm a regular Pod Save America and Pod Save the World listener, Bulwark listener, etc. The "Editors" cherry pick as if he didn't say anything else.

Sure, hindsight is 20:20. But the critique is BS.

The problem then and now is Netanyahu and the far right wing of Israeli politics, not Obama trying to create a space of credibility with Arab states, an openness to changing the trajectory of the conflict. It didn't work. And yeah, it's complex as to why it failed, not the simplistic partisan claptrap of the NR.

And no, working on a deal with Iran didn't create or strengthen Hamas nor Hezbollah. The Iranians were gonna do what they've done, period, with or without that deal. Maybe some Iranian kleptocrats stashed away huge sums in Swiss banks that they might not have, but their terror ambitions weren't created nor made possible by that deal.

It would be equally as valid to make the claim that Trump's blowing up that deal triggered Iran to double down on its support for terror orgs instead of working towards more reciprocal trade relationships...that's probably an over the top 'take' as well...but equally valid to this claptrap.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 1:20 pm
by NattyBohChamps04
Speaking of anti-semitism mainstreamed during the Obama era... KKK recruitment flyer in Virginia today.

Image

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 2:47 pm
by a fan
old salt wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:44 pm

Obama was indeed complicit in the troubling events of our times. But if he’s going to reflect on his own failed legacy, he should leave the rest of us out of it.[/i]
:lol: :lol: :lol: Obama's bad, and didn't do the spectacular job the last several R Presidents did in ending this mess. Boy, some real enlightening stuff here.

I thought Trump and Kush fixed everything over there? It's not possible that Palestinians murdered 1,500 Israelis, starting this new war...must be fake news.

We should give Kush and his magic letter R a medal for fixing everything.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 4:50 pm
by Brooklyn
old salt wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:44 pm https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/11/ ... term=third

Yes, Obama Is Complicit

By THE EDITORS, November 7, 2023

...

In Obama’s second term, his foreign policy was focused primarily on securing a nuclear deal with Iran. Much of the criticism of the deal has focused on what was in it — i.e., that it delivered billions in sanctions relief while allowing Iran to bolster its conventional military and preserve a glide path toward a nuclear weapon. What is more overlooked is the fact that in its desperate pursuit of the nuclear deal, the Obama administration turned a blind eye toward Iran’s malign behavior around the globe, despite its being the leading state sponsor of terrorism. This included funding, training, and transferring weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah. In fact, a 2017 investigative report by Politico revealed, “In its determination to secure a nuclear deal with Iran, the Obama administration derailed an ambitious law enforcement campaign targeting drug trafficking by the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah, even as it was funneling cocaine into the United States.” Money raised by the drug trafficking helped fund Hezbollah’s terrorism against Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere.


Interesting that National Review and others claim Iran sells drugs while its government routinely executes those who engage in the trade to its war on drugs:

https://www.voanews.com/a/7119925.html
https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310201518
https://www.unodc.org/islamicrepublicof ... cking.html



Drug use is haram under Islamic law:
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinfo ... erid=87278


Iran is at the forefront of nations in the fight against international trafficking of narcotics:


https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/489886 ... -Iran-says

Global support ‘essential’ in fight against narcotics, Iran says


Islamic Republic of Iran has always been committed to a serious and decisive fight against narcotics at the regional and global level, IRIB reported.

Iran has spent a huge sum of money fighting the war on drugs, and apart from that, many anti-narcotics forces have sacrificed their lives in this way. The high number of martyrs and injured shows Iran's serious determination to deal with this scourge, the UN official added.

"Considering the fact that the Islamic Republic of Iran is at the forefront of the fight against drug trafficking, the UNODC and the international community support of Iran should be proportionate to the activities and actions at the regional and global level.”

... “The successful experiences of Iran’s anti-narcotics police in the field of combating drug transit should be made available to all countries in the region and the world in different ways,”

... The UNODC Office attaches special importance to the regional and global role of the Islamic Republic in the fight against narcotics, and the discovery of narcotics by the law-enforcement forces of Iran shows the country’s efforts with the United Nations beyond the regional level ...


Iranian law is particularly harsh in dealing with drug addiction. It is rather difficult to believe that Iran would spread drugs in Lebanon while prohibiting drug use or manufacturing within their own land. One can readily see from the link that the UN has enlisted Iran in its efforts to stop international drug trafficking. Just as reports about Iran being on the verge of creating nuclear weapons and threatening to bomb the world with them have been greatly exaggerated over the past 25 years, I suggest that the allegation of Iran using Hezbollah to spread drugs is largely farcical as well. Iran does not have a border with Lebanon, so how are drugs supposedly transported from one nation to the other without any foreign or UN intervention? Not likely folks. It's just more pro war propaganda.




Now let's see if this can be discussed here by addressing what has been posted without the usual right wing hyperbole and attacks.