Sensible Gun Safety

[Bart]

Ah, ‘Murica. Land of the freedumb and home of the foolhardy…

I’ve been wondering what has been selected for over the past fifty odd years of diminished evolutionary selection pressure, and now I know.

Pew research on gun deaths:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... n-the-u-s/


FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."

Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/60214382 ... lf-defense

So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.

You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?

Kyle?

That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.

But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?

So you think a 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is the solution? You have fired this weapon. I think a 12 gauge in the wrong hands is not the weapon of choice for self defense. IMO the weapon you are are most comfortable shooting is the right weapon. FTR, I think an AR15 is a piddly poor weapon for self defense. The reason being a 5.56 round is still lethal out beyond 300 meters. If you miss you don't know where that round will go. I just purchased a 410 single barrel shotgun. i finally found some shells. I purchased a less lethal round, whatever that means, of 4 rubber pellets. It is a close range weapon with a shotgun shell designed for use at point blank range. That purpose would be someone actually breaking into and entering my home. My wife can use it safely if she has to. I can't say the same for a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.

12 gauge, no slug will stop any intruder. Period.

Huh? What exactly do you mean by this?

[CU88]

Lt. Tim Willis of Oakland County Sheriff's Office tells district court that mother of Oxford shooter sent text message to son after he got caught on 11-29 by school doing searching for ammunition:

"LOL, I'm not mad, you have to learn not to get caught."

[a fan]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect are charged with involuntary manslaughter

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/03/10611903 ... D_n2tvZx0Y

[kramerica.inc]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect are charged with involuntary manslaughter

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/03/10611903 ... D_n2tvZx0Y

If they are legal owners of the firearms used, then they could bear some responsibility for being safe owners.
If it's involuntary manslaughter remains to be seen. That's probably a bridge too far.
And it opens some interesting precedents:
For the owners of any items used in crimes.
And for parents whose children commit crimes. Finally put these parents on trial for irresponsible parenting.

[Farfromgeneva]

Thought the scenario is at night with an intruder downstairs and everyone else upstairs?

[SCLaxAttack]

After being away for a while and reading the last few pages of this thread, I feel as if I've been transported back to 1880s Tombstone, AZ. Many of you sound like you have to sit every night in the dark at a front window of your house to protect your family and property. Get a grip, and a set of high quality outdoor cameras.

Has this discussion really devolved to which is the better weapon to shoot another person: shotguns, rifles, or handguns? LMFAO. Shooting at another human being under any circumstance is a lot more difficult than shooting a paper target or at game, even if the person plans to harm you. Go sprint around the firing range building to get your heart rate up to near where it would be if an intruder's in your house, then immediately go in and try to hit the target. It's not happening.

And if you're ever in that situation you better not miss, because anybody who's illegally entered your house to steal your property or do you harm won't have the moral hesitancy you have to aim to kill another human being. They're going to take your weapon and kill you with it.

[Bart]

Lt. Tim Willis of Oakland County Sheriff's Office tells district court that mother of Oxford shooter sent text message to son after he got caught on 11-29 by school doing searching for ammunition:

"LOL, I'm not mad, you have to learn not to get caught."

What is the source of this? Curious. CNN states the following:

"Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the suspected Michigan shooter, texted her son not to open fire at Oxford High School, according to Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald.

McDonald (Oakland County Prosecutor) said James and Jennifer Crumbley met with school officials a few hours before the shooting about concerning behavior. The prosecutor said the parents left the school without their son and he returned to the classroom.

When the news of the active shooter had been made public, Jennifer Crumbley texted her son, "Ethan, don't do it," McDonald said.

Additionally, "James Crumbley called 911 reporting that a gun was missing from his house, and he believed his son may be the shooter," McDonald said.

McDonald said the investigation found that the gun purchased by the shooter's father was stored in an unlocked drawer in James and Jennifer's bedroom."

Nothing regarding the above quote. Thanks.

[a fan]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect are charged with involuntary manslaughter

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/03/10611903 ... D_n2tvZx0Y

If they are legal owners of the firearms used, then they could bear some responsibility for being safe owners.
If it's involuntary manslaughter remains to be seen. That's probably a bridge too far.

Either the prosecutor sitting on some really damaging direct evidence that the parents helped, or he's grandstanding.

We'll see, I guess.

[Kismet]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect are charged with involuntary manslaughter

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/03/10611903 ... D_n2tvZx0Y

If they are legal owners of the firearms used, then they could bear some responsibility for being safe owners.
If it's involuntary manslaughter remains to be seen. That's probably a bridge too far.

Either the prosecutor sitting on some really damaging direct evidence that the parents helped, or he's grandstanding.

We'll see, I guess.

Actually, the prosecutor is female. She referenced evidence not yet released that will support a criminal indictment of the parents. We know know what the charges are. Michigan does not have a safe storage requirement for firearms in a home, so that won't be the charge. They have opted for involuntary manslaughter and that won't be a slam dunk case to make.

"On the morning of the shooting, the prosecutor said, Crumbley's teacher found a drawing on Ethan's desk depicting a handgun, bullet and shooting victim, with the words "the thoughts won't stop, help me.""

There's your insanity or mental incompetence defense staring right at you.

[kramerica.inc]

Lt. Tim Willis of Oakland County Sheriff's Office tells district court that mother of Oxford shooter sent text message to son after he got caught on 11-29 by school doing searching for ammunition:

"LOL, I'm not mad, you have to learn not to get caught."

What is the source of this? Curious. CNN states the following:

"Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the suspected Michigan shooter, texted her son not to open fire at Oxford High School, according to Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald.

McDonald (Oakland County Prosecutor) said James and Jennifer Crumbley met with school officials a few hours before the shooting about concerning behavior. The prosecutor said the parents left the school without their son and he returned to the classroom.

When the news of the active shooter had been made public, Jennifer Crumbley texted her son, "Ethan, don't do it," McDonald said.

Additionally, "James Crumbley called 911 reporting that a gun was missing from his house, and he believed his son may be the shooter," McDonald said.

McDonald said the investigation found that the gun purchased by the shooter's father was stored in an unlocked drawer in James and Jennifer's bedroom."

Nothing regarding the above quote. Thanks.

Let's make sure this isn't intentionally trolling, fake news.

Sounds similar to the scenario where Peter got suspended.

[seacoaster]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect are charged with involuntary manslaughter

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/03/10611903 ... D_n2tvZx0Y

Excellent; they can have a family suite in the Max.

[Farfromgeneva]

Lt. Tim Willis of Oakland County Sheriff's Office tells district court that mother of Oxford shooter sent text message to son after he got caught on 11-29 by school doing searching for ammunition:

"LOL, I'm not mad, you have to learn not to get caught."

What is the source of this? Curious. CNN states the following:

"Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the suspected Michigan shooter, texted her son not to open fire at Oxford High School, according to Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald.

McDonald (Oakland County Prosecutor) said James and Jennifer Crumbley met with school officials a few hours before the shooting about concerning behavior. The prosecutor said the parents left the school without their son and he returned to the classroom.

When the news of the active shooter had been made public, Jennifer Crumbley texted her son, "Ethan, don't do it," McDonald said.

Additionally, "James Crumbley called 911 reporting that a gun was missing from his house, and he believed his son may be the shooter," McDonald said.

McDonald said the investigation found that the gun purchased by the shooter's father was stored in an unlocked drawer in James and Jennifer's bedroom."

Nothing regarding the above quote. Thanks.

Let's make sure this isn't intentionally trolling, fake news.

Sounds similar to the scenario where Peter got suspended.

Make a formal complaint to administrators or move on. Thais subtle don’t want to be seen as a snitch effort is unimpressive.

And if it is this person will get sent to the booty house. If not take responsibility.

[CU88]

Lt. Tim Willis of Oakland County Sheriff's Office tells district court that mother of Oxford shooter sent text message to son after he got caught on 11-29 by school doing searching for ammunition:

"LOL, I'm not mad, you have to learn not to get caught."

What is the source of this? Curious. CNN states the following:

"Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the suspected Michigan shooter, texted her son not to open fire at Oxford High School, according to Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald.

McDonald (Oakland County Prosecutor) said James and Jennifer Crumbley met with school officials a few hours before the shooting about concerning behavior. The prosecutor said the parents left the school without their son and he returned to the classroom.

When the news of the active shooter had been made public, Jennifer Crumbley texted her son, "Ethan, don't do it," McDonald said.

Additionally, "James Crumbley called 911 reporting that a gun was missing from his house, and he believed his son may be the shooter," McDonald said.

McDonald said the investigation found that the gun purchased by the shooter's father was stored in an unlocked drawer in James and Jennifer's bedroom."

Nothing regarding the above quote. Thanks.

Will you accept Faux News?

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1466819872160165894

[Matnum PI]

What is the source of this? Curious.

To me, this is very believable. Keep in mind, the claim is that she texted this to him before the shooting. She's being a "cool parent". Also, others reporting the same:

BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59523682
NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/03/us/c ... oting.html
USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 850669002/
...

[kramerica.inc]

Believable sure, but corroborated?
Fox News is not a reliable news source.

[Bart]

Lt. Tim Willis of Oakland County Sheriff's Office tells district court that mother of Oxford shooter sent text message to son after he got caught on 11-29 by school doing searching for ammunition:

"LOL, I'm not mad, you have to learn not to get caught."

What is the source of this? Curious. CNN states the following:

"Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the suspected Michigan shooter, texted her son not to open fire at Oxford High School, according to Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald.

McDonald (Oakland County Prosecutor) said James and Jennifer Crumbley met with school officials a few hours before the shooting about concerning behavior. The prosecutor said the parents left the school without their son and he returned to the classroom.

When the news of the active shooter had been made public, Jennifer Crumbley texted her son, "Ethan, don't do it," McDonald said.

Additionally, "James Crumbley called 911 reporting that a gun was missing from his house, and he believed his son may be the shooter," McDonald said.

McDonald said the investigation found that the gun purchased by the shooter's father was stored in an unlocked drawer in James and Jennifer's bedroom."

Nothing regarding the above quote. Thanks.

Will you accept Faux News?

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1466819872160165894

Sure. Thanks.

[youthathletics]

Isnt she saying that about being on the phone during class?

[Kismet]

Isnt she saying that about being on the phone during class?

So effing what. Certainly, you are not trying to defend the action of these two people and their kid which resulted in the death for four people and injury to 8 others. Currently, with less than 30 minutes to go before arraignment, they are nowhere to be found and a search is underway by local police, U.S Marshals and FBI. Highly unlikely, the arraignment was not pre-negotiated with their legal counsel.

To say nothing, that during the meeting at school shortly before the shooting started that neither the parents nor the schools folks inspected his backpack which contained the fully loaded weapon and many, many rounds of ammunition. Many questions for the school administrators as well.

I'm all for arguing about just anything here but using this tragedy as a method to argue some point seems a bit beyond the pale IMHO.

Care to explain? I'll promise to listen.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Isnt she saying that about being on the phone during class?

So effing what. Certainly, you are not trying to defend the action of these two people and their kid which resulted in the death for four people and injury to 8 others. Currently, with less than 30 minutes to go before arraignment, they are nowhere to be found and a search is underway by local police, U.S Marshals and FBI. Highly unlikely, the arraignment was not pre-negotiated with their legal counsel.

To say nothing, that during the meeting at school shortly before the shooting started that neither the parents nor the schools folks inspected his backpack which contained the fully loaded weapon and many, many rounds of ammunition. Many questions for the school administrators as well.

I'm all for arguing about just anything here but using this tragedy as a method to argue some point seems a bit beyond the pale IMHO.

Care to explain? I'll promise to listen.

Nah….He is just asking a question….I believe YA suggested George Floyd shouldn’t have acted tough…that’s why he ended up dead.

[MDlaxfan76]

Ah, ‘Murica. Land of the freedumb and home of the foolhardy…

I’ve been wondering what has been selected for over the past fifty odd years of diminished evolutionary selection pressure, and now I know.

Pew research on gun deaths:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... n-the-u-s/


FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."

Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/60214382 ... lf-defense

So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.

You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?

Kyle?

That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.

But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?

So you think a 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is the solution? You have fired this weapon. I think a 12 gauge in the wrong hands is not the weapon of choice for self defense. IMO the weapon you are are most comfortable shooting is the right weapon. FTR, I think an AR15 is a piddly poor weapon for self defense. The reason being a 5.56 round is still lethal out beyond 300 meters. If you miss you don't know where that round will go. I just purchased a 410 single barrel shotgun. i finally found some shells. I purchased a less lethal round, whatever that means, of 4 rubber pellets. It is a close range weapon with a shotgun shell designed for use at point blank range. That purpose would be someone actually breaking into and entering my home. My wife can use it safely if she has to. I can't say the same for a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.

12 gauge, no slug will stop any intruder. Period.

Huh? What exactly do you mean by this?

I assume he meant by 'slug', a ball, rather than shot.
No need for a slug, regular 12 GA #2, #4 etc shot will get the job done at close range. And much less likely to "miss".