FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.
So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.
You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?
Kyle?
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:18 pm
by youthathletics
Rittenhouse Witness Gaige Grosskreutz Arrested for DWI:
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:08 pm
by DMac
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:26 pm
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
I don't like this tactic at all. You've given the element of surprise away with this.
1. He now knows you're in the house.
2. He knows about where you are.
If I'm in a position that I've got my shotgun out for protection, I'm pumping and
firing when I see the intruder. If one isn't comfortable/confident in doing this,
he/she needs to practice more...which I don't think people do enough when
they go out and buy a gun for home protection.
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:21 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:18 pm
Rittenhouse Witness Gaige Grosskreutz Arrested for DWI:
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:26 pm
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
I don't like this tactic at all. You've given the element of surprise away with this.
1. He now knows you're in the house.
2. He knows about where you are.
If I'm in a position that I've got my shotgun out for protection, I'm pumping and
firing when I see the intruder. If one isn't comfortable/confident in doing this,
he/she needs to practice more...which I don't think people do enough when
they go out and buy a gun for home protection.
It's 2 in the morning. My car is out front. He already knows where I am. I'm getting behind something solid and giving him a chance to retreat.
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:29 pm
by DMac
Your life, your protection, your call.
Not the way I'd go about it.
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:05 pm
by Farfromgeneva
Need guns because how do you learn about the 12 items or less line
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:26 pm
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
I don't like this tactic at all. You've given the element of surprise away with this.
1. He now knows you're in the house.
2. He knows about where you are.
If I'm in a position that I've got my shotgun out for protection, I'm pumping and
firing when I see the intruder. If one isn't comfortable/confident in doing this,
he/she needs to practice more...which I don't think people do enough when
they go out and buy a gun for home protection.
It's 2 in the morning. My car is out front. He already knows where I am. I'm getting behind something solid and giving him a chance to retreat.
It’s 2 in the morning and my car is in the garage which was mandatory in the purchase of my home so my car never gets broken into and no one knows when I’m home. I have locks, dead bolts and alarms. In the insanely unlikelihood that someone breaks into my home with ADT stickers on all the windows and doors, I’d rather call the police than live with the nightmares of killing someone, regardless of the reason. I’ve pretty much planned it so that scenario never happens.
As an adult, I’ve lived within the city of Los Angeles, San Francisco, Philadelphia and now Buffalo. I have been burgled while not home, but never robbed or mugged. I have developed street smarts not to get victimized and I don’t have a gun and don’t feel the need for one. I think you need better planning.
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:26 pm
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
I don't like this tactic at all. You've given the element of surprise away with this.
1. He now knows you're in the house.
2. He knows about where you are.
If I'm in a position that I've got my shotgun out for protection, I'm pumping and
firing when I see the intruder. If one isn't comfortable/confident in doing this,
he/she needs to practice more...which I don't think people do enough when
they go out and buy a gun for home protection.
It's 2 in the morning. My car is out front. He already knows where I am. I'm getting behind something solid and giving him a chance to retreat.
It’s 2 in the morning and my car is in the garage which was mandatory in the purchase of my home so my car never gets broken into and no one knows when I’m home. I have locks, dead bolts and alarms. In the insanely unlikelihood that someone breaks into my home with ADT stickers on all the windows and doors, I’d rather call the police than live with the nightmares of killing someone, regardless of the reason. I’ve pretty much planned it so that scenario never happens.
As an adult, I’ve lived within the city of Los Angeles, San Francisco, Philadelphia and now Buffalo. I have been burgled while not home, but never robbed or mugged. I have developed street smarts not to get victimized and I don’t have a gun and don’t feel the need for one. I think you need better planning.
A large, aggressive sounding dog is all that is needed.
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:08 am
by DMac
If it's protection/security you're looking for, that's a very high maintenance system/weapon, which isn't to say I disagree but don't get a large dog for that reason (that's just a side benefit that comes with the dog).
FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.
So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.
You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?
Kyle?
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?
So you think a 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is the solution? You have fired this weapon. I think a 12 gauge in the wrong hands is not the weapon of choice for self defense. IMO the weapon you are are most comfortable shooting is the right weapon. FTR, I think an AR15 is a piddly poor weapon for self defense. The reason being a 5.56 round is still lethal out beyond 300 meters. If you miss you don't know where that round will go. I just purchased a 410 single barrel shotgun. i finally found some shells. I purchased a less lethal round, whatever that means, of 4 rubber pellets. It is a close range weapon with a shotgun shell designed for use at point blank range. That purpose would be someone actually breaking into and entering my home. My wife can use it safely if she has to. I can't say the same for a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.
So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.
You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?
Kyle?
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?
So you think a 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is the solution? You have fired this weapon. I think a 12 gauge in the wrong hands is not the weapon of choice for self defense. IMO the weapon you are are most comfortable shooting is the right weapon. FTR, I think an AR15 is a piddly poor weapon for self defense. The reason being a 5.56 round is still lethal out beyond 300 meters. If you miss you don't know where that round will go. I just purchased a 410 single barrel shotgun. i finally found some shells. I purchased a less lethal round, whatever that means, of 4 rubber pellets. It is a close range weapon with a shotgun shell designed for use at point blank range. That purpose would be someone actually breaking into and entering my home. My wife can use it safely if she has to. I can't say the same for a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.
So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.
You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?
Kyle?
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?
So you think a 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is the solution? You have fired this weapon. I think a 12 gauge in the wrong hands is not the weapon of choice for self defense. IMO the weapon you are are most comfortable shooting is the right weapon. FTR, I think an AR15 is a piddly poor weapon for self defense. The reason being a 5.56 round is still lethal out beyond 300 meters. If you miss you don't know where that round will go. I just purchased a 410 single barrel shotgun. i finally found some shells. I purchased a less lethal round, whatever that means, of 4 rubber pellets. It is a close range weapon with a shotgun shell designed for use at point blank range. That purpose would be someone actually breaking into and entering my home. My wife can use it safely if she has to. I can't say the same for a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
22s for home
Why? I’d never use a rifled bullet for home. Too much of a chance to go through the wall. I have to agree with C&S…..410 with a pistol grip snd probably a mix of 4&6 shot.
FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.
So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.
You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?
Kyle?
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?
So you think a 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is the solution? You have fired this weapon. I think a 12 gauge in the wrong hands is not the weapon of choice for self defense. IMO the weapon you are are most comfortable shooting is the right weapon. FTR, I think an AR15 is a piddly poor weapon for self defense. The reason being a 5.56 round is still lethal out beyond 300 meters. If you miss you don't know where that round will go. I just purchased a 410 single barrel shotgun. i finally found some shells. I purchased a less lethal round, whatever that means, of 4 rubber pellets. It is a close range weapon with a shotgun shell designed for use at point blank range. That purpose would be someone actually breaking into and entering my home. My wife can use it safely if she has to. I can't say the same for a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
22s for home
Why? I’d never use a rifled bullet for home. Too much of a chance to go through the wall. I have to agree with C&S…..410 with a pistol grip snd probably a mix of 4&6 shot.
Shouldn’t you know how to shoot effectively if you’re willing to shoot some person inside your home? I presume the folks here know enough to be responsible with that. I understand these situations are under duress but then Is circle back to is it smart/responsible if one doesn’t think they can handle the risk?
FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.
So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.
You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?
Kyle?
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?
So you think a 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is the solution? You have fired this weapon. I think a 12 gauge in the wrong hands is not the weapon of choice for self defense. IMO the weapon you are are most comfortable shooting is the right weapon. FTR, I think an AR15 is a piddly poor weapon for self defense. The reason being a 5.56 round is still lethal out beyond 300 meters. If you miss you don't know where that round will go. I just purchased a 410 single barrel shotgun. i finally found some shells. I purchased a less lethal round, whatever that means, of 4 rubber pellets. It is a close range weapon with a shotgun shell designed for use at point blank range. That purpose would be someone actually breaking into and entering my home. My wife can use it safely if she has to. I can't say the same for a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
12 gauge, no slug will stop any intruder. Period.
410 would do just fine, and if you want to use rubber pellets, that would certainly be a strong deterrent to the unarmed intruder, though it's not a stopper in an actual fight. But I sure wouldn't want that barrel pointed at me!
And a heck of a lot safer if your wife ever turned it on you!
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:45 am
by MDlaxfan76
DMac wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:08 am
If it's protection/security you're looking for, that's a very high maintenance system/weapon, which isn't to say I disagree but don't get a large dog for that reason (that's just a side benefit that comes with the dog).
+1
Love your dog and your dog will love you.
No yappers at our house, though.
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:58 am
by kramerica.inc
Dogs are definitely a great deterrent. Even a little one.
As for arms, your most comfortable, should be your self defense.
But if you're starting from scratch, shotguns are a very good choice because of what others mentioned- the ability to mix/alternate shot type and the safety between rooms issue. The pump and semis can hold 6, which should be more than enough.
Unfortunately, racking the slide likely wont do much. Statistics show that many of the people breaking into homes aren't sober.
The wife likes the side by side stagecoach when I travel. Just 2 shots, but the easiest aim/fire/reload option, IMO. And that's what you want if you're bleary, awakened from a deep sleep. Stoeger makes a decent one for about $400. CZs are a little nicer wood and and have more options if you're nostalgic, but the price jumps to about $1k.
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:11 pm
by CU88
More American children have died this year to protect the 2nd Amendment than members of the military.
Even before COVID-19, another epidemic was killing our children at higher rates: gun violence. Gun violence was the leading cause of death for all children and teens ages 1-19 in 2018, surpassing motor vehicle accidents for the first time in history.1 Children and teens are far more likely to die from gunfire than COVID-19,2 yet our leaders continue to allow gun violence to go uncurbed and gun laws to go unchanged.
After years of congressional inaction, a growing number of children are paying with their lives. In 2019, 3,371 American children and teens were killed with guns—enough to fill more than 168 classrooms of 20 (see Table 35).
Child and teen gun deaths hit a 19-year high in 2017 and have remained elevated since.3
In 2019, nine children and teens were killed with guns each day in America—one every 2 hours and 36 minutes.4
Guns killed more children and teens than cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, HIV/AIDs, and opioids combined.5
While mass shootings grabbed fleeting public and policymaker attention, routine gunfire took the lives of more children and teens every week than the Parkland, Sandy Hook, and Columbine massacres combined.
Since 1963, nearly 193,000 children and teens have been killed with guns on American soil—more than four times the number of U.S. soldiers killed in action in the Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, and Iraq wars combined.6
Re: Sensible Gun Control
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:19 pm
by PizzaSnake
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:58 am
Dogs are definitely a great deterrent. Even a little one.
As for arms, your most comfortable, should be your self defense.
But if you're starting from scratch, shotguns are a very good choice because of what others mentioned- the ability to mix/alternate shot type and the safety between rooms issue. The pump and semis can hold 6, which should be more than enough.
Unfortunately, racking the slide likely wont do much. Statistics show that many of the people breaking into homes aren't sober.
The wife likes the side by side stagecoach when I travel. Just 2 shots, but the easiest aim/fire/reload option, IMO. And that's what you want if you're bleary, awakened from a deep sleep. Stoeger makes a decent one for about $400. CZs are a little nicer wood and and have more options if you're nostalgic, but the price jumps to about $1k.
Remington 870 Police Magnum with triple aught buck. Don’t forget earplugs and glasses for the muzzle flash (if discharging in the dark). And a shop vac to clean up the mess.
FTA: "Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338)."
Compared to 14,542 murders, what are the estimates for the number of lives saved annually by defensive gun use? I've seen numbers from a low of 108,000 to over 400,000. I'm going to assume the vast majority of suicidal people would have found an alternative method. While all of these mass shootings are tragic, we should consider the alternative in a world where only criminals have firearms.
So more than 100,000? Seems like the math favors the responsible gun owner. Consider that of the roughly 15,000 murders, many are criminal vs. criminal. I may or may not own a gun. I might have bought one yesterday. But the person contemplating entry into my home has no way of knowing. Anything that reduces that uncertainty is likely to lead to more loss of innocent life.
You know anyone that used a gun to kill someone in self defense?
Kyle?
That isn't the point. If I am in my bedroom upstairs and an intruder is downstairs all I need to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and it will most likely have the desired effect.
But do we need Ar-15s and handguns for this option?
So you think a 12 gauge shotgun with a rifled slug is the solution? You have fired this weapon. I think a 12 gauge in the wrong hands is not the weapon of choice for self defense. IMO the weapon you are are most comfortable shooting is the right weapon. FTR, I think an AR15 is a piddly poor weapon for self defense. The reason being a 5.56 round is still lethal out beyond 300 meters. If you miss you don't know where that round will go. I just purchased a 410 single barrel shotgun. i finally found some shells. I purchased a less lethal round, whatever that means, of 4 rubber pellets. It is a close range weapon with a shotgun shell designed for use at point blank range. That purpose would be someone actually breaking into and entering my home. My wife can use it safely if she has to. I can't say the same for a pump action 12 gauge shotgun.
22s for home
Why? I’d never use a rifled bullet for home. Too much of a chance to go through the wall. I have to agree with C&S…..410 with a pistol grip snd probably a mix of 4&6 shot.
Shouldn’t you know how to shoot effectively if you’re willing to shoot some person inside your home? I presume the folks here know enough to be responsible with that. I understand these situations are under duress but then Is circle back to is it smart/responsible if one doesn’t think they can handle the risk?
I shoot often. I am fairly confident in putting my 9 mm (or 32 or 357 or 22 or....) on paper at 10 yards in a small group. I am confident in my handling of all of my fire arms. I am confident in using my firearms to dispatch deer (I do not use pistols). If it came to the point where I had to defend myself I still would use the .410. The room for error is greater in a life and death situation....plus I would not have to worry about putting the bullet into a room with another unintended target.
