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Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:59 pm
by a fan
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:51 pm
I thought I was clear: the majority of Americans and the very clear policies of the current US government have full throatily decried Hamas' actions and are actively supporting Israel's right and duty to defend themselves, including the destruction of Hamas.

Our government is acting in alignment with those words...what should a pro-Israel protest be protesting?

Have you been paying attention to what Blinken just said, and what we're actually doing? Do you think he's forgotten about American hostages? Israeli hostages?
You're citing Blinken and US policy.

What I am talking about here is: where is everyone else on condemning and marching in the streets over what Hamas is doing, and demanding that Hamas return the hostages? Why are they only protesting what the Israelis are doing? Anywhere in the EU or Middle East?
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:51 pm You say that "No one is holding Palestine accountable. No one."

There's no state of Palestine. No government of Palestine. Palestinians, yes, in the regions of Gaza and West Bank, in Israel and neighboring countries, and around the world. And they are not monolithic.
Cop out. Where did the rockets and the recent attack and hostage taking come from, MDLax? Egypt?

No. They came from Palestinians. Gaza if you want. Want to use the phrase "hold the Gazan's accountable". Fine. Use that terminology.

SOMEONE is letting Hamas set up bases in Hospitals and schools, MDLax. Those "someone's" are Palestinians.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:51 pm Likewise, when you write: "Further, when aid goes to Palestine----it also goes to Hamas", there is no "Palestine". But yes, when money is sent to 'authorities' in Gaza, that is actually Hamas and a significant portion of those monies is reportedly siphoned away from intended civilian benefit to Hamas' military infrastructure and fighter payments...and to Hamas kleptocratic leaders in other countries. Yes, Hamas is corrupt as all get out.
Pick a word for the people living there, MDlax. Then we can discuss this. But to say that "no one" is launching rockets into Israel, or murdering a thousand Israelis is inaccurate, and is part of the problem.

When they march demanding the cessation of violence coming from Gaza? That's when we're closer to getting out of this mess.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:10 pm
by MDlaxfan76
youthathletics wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:14 am
youthathletics wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:49 am
I think you are over complicating it. afans comment is really easy to understand....can you answer it, ignoring Baducci's rebuttal?
Actually, I don't think I'm "over-complicating" anything. As my multiple posts on this topic should have made clear, I think acknowledging and addressing the complexity is essential for any hope of resolution, any potential for an end to the cycle of horrific violence.

As to a fan's question, I'd need to go back and check for any additional context, but in it's simplest form, I'd say there was an immediate and overwhelming sense of shock and revulsion at the horror of the Hamas terrorists' acts from most of the American populace and a swift response from President Biden calling those acts reprehensible. No equivocation. And then an evolving concern was added to the official responses, from Biden, Blinken, and others about Israel's right and duty (note the second, duty as voiced by Biden and Blinken) to defend itself, supporting the goal of removing the threat of Hamas completely...and yet with concern over the 'how', a concern about civilian life, and then further evolution to begin to set the current actions in a context of a vision of future hope for a peaceful two-state solution.

As the majority view of Americans, and the current government, is that Israel has a right (and duty) to defend itself, including with great force, I'm not sure what there is to protest from a pro-Israel, anti-Hamas point of view. The Israeli government is carrying out a brutal response to the terrorist acts of Hamas, with more than 10,000 Palestinians dead already...we don't know how many of those are Hamas fighters or supporters, but a large portion is likely not to be. Many are children, half of all dead estimated to be under 18. Who is thinking that there needs to be a protest in support of killing more Palestinians, given that's already underway?

However, in contrast to the general American populace, and the government's policy, a majority of younger Americans see the situation less about the existential rights of Jews to live in peace in Israel and more about the apartheid treatment of Palestinians by the current generation of Israelis in power. They have opposed the US government's ongoing support of this right-wing Israeli government, and now oppose the overwhelming force being used. Indeed, Israel has been fractured along these lines as well. Thus, Pro-Palestinian protests in countries in which protests are allowed.... Many in those protests simply want humanitarian concerns to be addressed without further bloodshed, others are more virulently opposed to right-wing Israeli policies and even some find justification of extreme actions against the 'oppressor'. Young, hot-headed, but not without valid concerns.

And then we have our MAGA House which wants to tie funding for Israel (which they say they support strongly) with defunding the IRS, leading to increases in the deficit as fewer hyper wealthy people can be audited...and oh yeah, that typical taxpayers have a harder time getting answers from fewer IRS customer service reps. No new technology upgrades. Brilliant.

So, you want less complexity?
Thank you for the thoughtful cliffs notes version of the recent past. But, you completely avoided the the question....where are the protests against Hamas/Palestine, and why are there none? I think you do not want to say the quite part out loud....and I seriously doubt you believe this, but the mere fact Israel has to defend itself ( practically daily for so long)and is one of the worlds most powerful military speaks volumes. ,....is a clue as to what the otherside wants.
what the heck? I answered the question fully and completely.
Just not simplistically.
Sorry if it's not going to fit on a bumper sticker.

There's no logic to a protest in a country that is fulsomely supporting Israel's response to the terrorist attack on it by those who support such a robust response. Who you gonna protest? Hamas is getting the sh-t kicked out of it, and unfortunately a heck of a lot of other Palestinians are paying a huge price as well.

Now, if the US government hadn't been supporting Israel all these years and wasn't supporting them now in this terrible time then I would see some logic to an "anti-Hamas" protest, but that's not the reality. And that's the answer.

I think that with the exception of some very extreme zionists or extreme Islamaphobes, most everyone else, including the vast majority of Jews, recognize that the problem is more complex.

And if you haven't figured out by now from the many times I've said it, Israel's challenge is indeed existential, surrounded by those who hate their very existence in the world, much less in the region. My sentiments are unequivocally with those concerns. But that doesn't mean we can't simultaneously have concern for the safety, dignity, prosperity of others who are caught in the midst of a cycle of violence and despair.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:18 pm
by MDlaxfan76
a fan wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:59 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:51 pm
I thought I was clear: the majority of Americans and the very clear policies of the current US government have full throatily decried Hamas' actions and are actively supporting Israel's right and duty to defend themselves, including the destruction of Hamas.

Our government is acting in alignment with those words...what should a pro-Israel protest be protesting?

Have you been paying attention to what Blinken just said, and what we're actually doing? Do you think he's forgotten about American hostages? Israeli hostages?
You're citing Blinken and US policy.

What I am talking about here is: where is everyone else on condemning and marching in the streets over what Hamas is doing, and demanding that Hamas return the hostages? Why are they only protesting what the Israelis are doing? Anywhere in the EU or Middle East?
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:51 pm You say that "No one is holding Palestine accountable. No one."

There's no state of Palestine. No government of Palestine. Palestinians, yes, in the regions of Gaza and West Bank, in Israel and neighboring countries, and around the world. And they are not monolithic.
Cop out. Where did the rockets and the recent attack and hostage taking come from, MDLax? Egypt?

No. They came from Palestinians. Gaza if you want. Want to use the phrase "hold the Gazan's accountable". Fine. Use that terminology.

SOMEONE is letting Hamas set up bases in Hospitals and schools, MDLax. Those "someone's" are Palestinians.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:51 pm Likewise, when you write: "Further, when aid goes to Palestine----it also goes to Hamas", there is no "Palestine". But yes, when money is sent to 'authorities' in Gaza, that is actually Hamas and a significant portion of those monies is reportedly siphoned away from intended civilian benefit to Hamas' military infrastructure and fighter payments...and to Hamas kleptocratic leaders in other countries. Yes, Hamas is corrupt as all get out.
Pick a word for the people living there, MDlax. Then we can discuss this. But to say that "no one" is launching rockets into Israel, or murdering a thousand Israelis is inaccurate, and is part of the problem.

When they march demanding the cessation of violence coming from Gaza? That's when we're closer to getting out of this mess.
There isn't a proper emoji for the shaking of my head in response.

Obviously I didn't say "no one", I'm just saying that if we're going to be honest, and I assume that's your intent, then let's be specific. Hamas is in control in GAZA because they have the weaponry and willingness to kill their own people to maintain control of that strip of land. It's a kleptocratic fascist terrorist entity. I'm not going to blame the victims of their repression for their inability to free themselves.

Have you marched for a cessation of violence from Gaza? Why not?

I think it's straightforward, we're part of the majority who see our government taking active steps to support the decimation of those "shooting the rockets" from Gaza, Hamas.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:32 pm
by a fan
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:18 pm There isn't a proper emoji for the shaking of my head in response.

Obviously I didn't say "no one", I'm just saying that if we're going to be honest, and I assume that's your intent, then let's be specific. Hamas is in control in GAZA because they have the weaponry and willingness to kill their own people to maintain control of that strip of land. It's a kleptocratic fascist terrorist entity. I'm not going to blame the victims of their repression for their inability to free themselves.
You can say the EXACT same thing about the far right Israeli government. You get that, right? Netanyahu isn't an admirable character, to put it politely. Yet we still hold Israelis as a whole responsible for their far right wing government's actions, even though many (most) disagree with what's happening.


This is our point: no one is holding the people of Gaza responsible, for example, of letting Gazans hide bases and rockets in hospitals or schoolyards.

Let's call them Gazans. No one is holding them accountable for peace. They get a full pass by playing this game of "it's not me...it's "some other guy who lives next door..and I won't tell you where".

This doesn't fly in any other situation, MDLax.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:45 pm
by MDlaxfan76
a fan wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:32 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:18 pm There isn't a proper emoji for the shaking of my head in response.

Obviously I didn't say "no one", I'm just saying that if we're going to be honest, and I assume that's your intent, then let's be specific. Hamas is in control in GAZA because they have the weaponry and willingness to kill their own people to maintain control of that strip of land. It's a kleptocratic fascist terrorist entity. I'm not going to blame the victims of their repression for their inability to free themselves.
You can say the EXACT same thing about the far right Israeli government. You get that, right? Netanyahu isn't an admirable character, to put it politely. Yet we still hold Israelis as a whole responsible for their far right wing government's actions, even though many (most) disagree with what's happening.


This is our point: no one is holding the people of Gaza responsible, for example, of letting Gazans hide bases and rockets in hospitals or schoolyards.

Let's call them Gazans. No one is holding them accountable for peace. They get a full pass by playing this game of "it's not me...it's "some other guy who lives next door..and I won't tell you where".

This doesn't fly in any other situation, MDLax.
IF Israel was an authoritarian regime in which Israelis were suppressed at the point of a gun, then you could legitimately claim "You can say the EXACT same thing about the far right Israeli government." But that's not the case.

"You get that, right?"

Personally, I'm certainly not going to "hold Israelis as a whole responsible for their far right wing government's actions". Nope. And I'll push back against those who do. But at least Israelis do have the opportunity to change their government through peaceful means...and I expect that's going to happen.

I don't think "Gazan's" have that opportunity at present, not since at least 2006...perhaps after Hamas is thoroughly degraded there will be an opportunity for some sort of democratic response in favor of a peaceful future, but not until then.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:10 pm
by Matnum PI
I'm not a big Bibi fan nor would my political leanings be considered right-wing but, to be fair, if the left-wing Israeli government didn't leave Gaza, didn't let Hamas become their "new Occupiers", things wouldn't be as they are right now. The Israeli right-wingers aren't wrong.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:23 pm
by Farfromgeneva
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:52 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:50 pm
Kinduv wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:46 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:39 pm Now weve totally gone to idiot territory. This thread is cooked now.
y0u're the idi0t, facts, tear d0wn the fences ar0und the pa1estinians and this war w0u1d be 0ver, fina11y peace in the midd east, i get this, br00kyn gets this, y0ur the idi0t that d0esn't get this,
Good one. Why don’t you post like you have a spine and write what you mean.

Like I said this thread has become a complete joke.
not the thread, but a poster for sure.
I guess I mean let me summarize the entire debate:

246. Epilogue
(The graveyard of Spoon River. Two voices are heard behind a screen decorated with diabolical and angelic figures in various allegorical relations. A faint light shows dimly through the screen as if it were woven of leaves, branches and shadows.)
First Voice:—A game of checkers?
Second Voice:—Well, I don’t mind.

First Voice:—I move the Will.

Second Voice:—You’re playing it blind.

First Voice:—Then here’s the Soul.

Second Voice:—Checked by the Will.

First Voice:—Eternal Good!

Second Voice:—And Eternal Ill.

First Voice:—I haste for the King row.

Second Voice:—Save your breath.

First Voice:—I was moving Life.

Second Voice:—You’re checked by Death.

First Voice:—Very good, here’s Moses.

Second Voice:—And here’s the Jew.

First Voice:—My next move is Jesus.

Second Voice:—St. Paul for you!

First Voice:—Yes, but St. Peter—

Second Voice:—You might have foreseen—

First Voice:—You’re in the King row—

Second Voice:—With Constantine!

First Voice:—I’ll go back to Athens.

Second Voice:—Well, here’s the Persian.

First Voice:—All right, the Bible.

Second Voice:—Pray now, what version?

First Voice:—I take up Buddha.

Second Voice:—It never will work.

First Voice:—From the corner Mahomet.

Second Voice:—I move the Turk.

First Voice:—The game is tangled; where are we now?

Second Voice:—You’re dreaming worlds. I’m in the King row.

Move as you will, if I can’t wreck you

I’ll thwart you, harry you, rout you, check you.

First Voice:—I’m tired. I’ll send for my Son to play.

I think he can beat you finally—

Second Voice:—Eh?

First Voice:—I must preside at the stars’ convention.

Second Voice:—Very well, my lord, but I beg to mention

I’ll give this game my direct attention.

First Voice:—A game indeed! But Truth is my quest.

Second Voice:—Beaten, you walk away with a jest.

I strike the table, I scatter the checkers.
[A rattle of a falling table and checkers flying over a floor.]

Aha! You armies and iron deckers,

Races and states in a cataclysm—

Now for a day of atheism!

[The screen vanishes and Beelzebub steps forward carrying a trumpet, which he blows faintly. Immediately Loki and Yogarindra start up from the shadows of night.]

Beelzebub:—Good evening, Loki!

Loki:—The same to you!

Beelzebub:—And Yogarindra!

Yogarindra:—My greetings, too.

Loki:—Whence came you, comrade?

Beelzebub:—From yonder screen.

Yogarindra:—And what were you doing?

Beelzebub:—Stirring His spleen.

Loki:—How did you do it?

Beelzebub:—I made it rough

In a game of checkers.

Loki:—Good enough!

Yogarindra:—I thought I heard the sounds of a battle.

Beelzebub:—No doubt! I made the checkers rattle,

Turning the table over and strewing

The bits of wood like an army pursuing.

Yogarindra:—I have a game! Let us make a man.

Loki:—My net is waiting him, if you can.

Yogarindra:—And here’s my mirror to fool him with—

Beelzebub:—Mystery, falsehood, creed and myth.

Loki:—But no one can mold him, friend, but you.

Beelzebub:—Then to the sport without more ado.

Yogarindra:—Hurry the work ere it grow to day.

Beelzebub:—I set me to it. Where is the clay?

[He scrapes the earth with his hands and begins to model.]

Beelzebub:—Out of the dust,

Out of the slime,

A little rust,

And a little lime.

Muscle and gristle,

Mucin, stone

Brayed with a pestle,

Fat and bone.

Out of the marshes,

Out of the vaults,

Matter crushes

Gas and salts.

What is this you call a mind,

Flitting, drifting, pale and blind,

Soul of the swamp that rides the wind?

Jack-o’-lantern, here you are!

Dream of heaven, pine for a star,

Chase your brothers to and fro,

Back to the swamp at last you’ll go.

Hilloo! Hilloo!

The Valley:—Hilloo! Hilloo!

[Beelzebub in scraping up the earth turns out a skull.]

Beelzebub:—Old one, old one.

Now ere I break you,

Crush you and make you

Clay for my use,

Let me observe you:

You were a bold one

Flat at the dome of you,

Heavy the base of you,

False to the home of you,

Strong was the face of you,

Strange to all fears.

Yet did the hair of you

Hide what you were.

Now to re-nerve you—
[He crushes the skull between his hands and mixes it with the clay.]

Now you are dust,

Limestone and rust.

I mold and I stir

And make you again.

The Valley:—Again? Again?

[In the same manner Beelzebub has fashioned several figures, standing them against the trees.]

Loki:—Now for the breath of life. As I remember

You have done right to mold your creatures first,

And stand them up.

Beelzebub:—From gravitation

I make the will.

Yogarindra:—Out of sensation

Comes his ill.

Out of my mirror

Springs his error.

Who was so cruel

To make him the slave

Of me the sorceress, you the knave,

And you the plotter to catch his thought,

Whatever he did, whatever he sought?

With a nature dual

Of will and mind

A thing that sees, and a thing that’s blind.

Come! to our dance! Something hated him

Made us over him, therefore fated him.

[They join hands and dance.]

Loki:—Passion, reason, custom, rules,

Creeds of the churches, lore of the schools,

Taint in the blood and strength of soul.

Flesh too weak for the will’s control;

Poverty, riches, pride of birth,

Wailing, laughter, over the earth,

Here I have you caught again,

Enter my web, ye sons of men.

Yogarindra:—Look in my mirror! Isn’t it real?

What do you think now, what do you feel?

Here is treasure of gold heaped up;

Here is wine in the festal cup.

Tendrils blossoming, turned to whips,

Love with her breasts and scarlet lips.

Breathe in their nostrils.

Beelzebub:—Falsehood’s breath,

Out of nothingness into death.

Out of the mold, out of the rocks

Wonder, mockery, paradox!

Soaring spirit, groveling flesh,

Bait the trap, and spread the mesh.

Give him hunger, lure him with truth,

Give him the iris hopes of Youth.

Starve him, shame him, fling him down,

Whirled in the vortex of the town.

Break him, age him, till he curse

The idiot face of the universe.

Over and over we mix the clay,—

What was dust is alive to-day.

The Three:—Thus is the hell-born tangle wound

Swiftly, swiftly round and round.

Beelzebub:—[Waving his trumpet.] You live! Away!

One of the Figures:—How strange and new!

I am I, and another, too.

Another Figure:—I was a sun-dew’s leaf, but now

What is this longing?—

Another Figure:—Earth below

I was a seedling magnet-tipped

Drawn down earth—

Another Figure:—And I was gripped

Electrons in a granite stone,

Now I think.

Another Figure:—Oh, how alone!

Another Figure:—My lips to thine. Through thee I find

Something alone by love divined!

Beelzebub:—Begone! No, wait. I have bethought me, friends;

Let’s give a play.
[He waves his trumpet.]

To yonder green rooms go.

[The figures disappear.]

Yogarindra:—Oh, yes, a play! That’s very well, I think,

But who will be the audience? I must throw

Illusion over all.

Loki:—And I must shift

The scenery, and tangle up the plot.

Beelzebub:—Well, so you shall! Our audience shall come

From yonder graves.

[He blows his trumpet slightly louder than before. The scene changes. A stage arises among the graves. The curtain is down, concealing the creatures just created, illuminated halfway up by spectral lights. Beelzebub stands before the curtain.]

Beelzebub:—[A terrific blast of the trumpet.] Who-o-o-o-o-o!

[Immediately there is a rustling as of the shells of grasshoppers stirred by a wind; and hundreds of the dead, including those who have appeared in the Anthology, hurry to the sound of the trumpet.]

A Voice:—Gabriel! Gabriel!

Many Voices:—The Judgment day!

Beelzebub:—Be quiet, if you please

At least until the stars fall and the moon.

Many Voices:—Save us! Save us!

[Beelzebub extends his hands over the audience with a benedictory motion and restores order.]

Beelzebub:—Ladies and gentlemen, your kind attention

To my interpretation of the scene.

I rise to give your fancy comprehension,

And analyze the parts of the machine.

My mood is such that I would not deceive you,

Though still a liar and the father of it,

From judgment’s frailty I would retrieve you,

Though falsehood is my art and though I love it.

Down in the habitations whence I rise,

The roots of human sorrow boundless spread.

Long have I watched them draw the strength that lies

In clay made richer by the rotting dead.

Here is a blossom, here a twisted stalk,

Here fruit that sourly withers ere its prime;

And here a growth that sprawls across the walk,

Food for the green worm, which it turns to slime.

The ruddy apple with a core of cork

Springs from a root which in a hollow dangles,

Not skillful husbandry nor laborious work

Can save the tree which lightning breaks and tangles.

Why does the bright nasturtium scarcely flower

But that those insects multiply and grow,

Which make it food, and in the very hour

In which the veinèd leafs and blossoms blow?

Why does a goodly tree, while fast maturing,

Turn crooked branches covered o’er with scale?

Why does the tree whose youth was not assuring

Prosper and bear while all its fellows fail?

I under earth see much. I know the soil.

I know where mold is heavy and where thin.

I see the stones that thwart the plowman’s toil,

The crooked roots of what the priests call sin.

I know all secrets, even to the core,

What seedlings will be upas, pine or laurel;

It cannot change howe’er the field’s worked o’er.

Man’s what he is and that’s the devil’s moral.

So with the souls of the ensuing drama

They sprang from certain seed in certain earth.

Behold them in the devil’s cyclorama,

Shown in their proper light for all they’re worth.

Now to my task: I’ll give an exhibition

Of mixing the ingredients of spirit.
[He waves his wand.]

Come, crucible, perform your magic mission,

Come, recreative fire, and hover near it!

I’ll make a soul, or show how one is made.
[He waves his wand again. Parti-colored flames appear.]

This is the woman you shall see anon!
[A red flame appears.]

This hectic flame makes all the world afraid:

It was a soldier’s scourge which ate the bone.

His daughter bore the lady of the action,

And died at thirty-nine of scrofula.

She was a creature of a sweet attraction,

Whose sex-obsession no one ever saw.
[A purple flame appears.]

Lo! this denotes aristocratic strains

Back in the centuries of France’s glory.
[A blue flame appears.]

And this the will that pulls against the chains

Her father strove until his hair was hoary.

Sorrow and failure made his nature cold,

He never loved the child whose woe is shown,

And hence her passion for the things which gold

Brings in this world of pride, and brings alone.

The human heart that’s famished from its birth

Turns to the grosser treasures, that is plain.

Thus aspiration fallen fills the earth

With jungle growths of bitterness and pain.

Of Celtic, Gallic fire our heroine!

Courageous, cruel, passionate and proud.

False, vengeful, cunning, without fear o’ sin.

A head that oft is bloody, but not bowed.

Now if she meet a man—suppose our hero,

With whom her chemistry shall war yet mix,

As if she were her Borgia to his Nero,

’Twill look like one of Satan’s little tricks!

However, it must be. The world’s great garden

Is not all mine. I only sow the tares.

Wheat should be made immune, or else the Warden

Should stop their coming in the world’s affairs.

But to our hero! Long ere he was born

I knew what would repel him and attract.

Such spirit mathematics, fig or thorn,

I can prognosticate before the fact.
[A yellow flame appears.]

This is a grandsire’s treason in an orchard

Against a maid whose nature with his mated.
[Lurid flames appear.]

And this his memory distrait and tortured,

Which marked the child with hate because she hated.

Our heroine’s grand dame was that maid’s own cousin—

But never this our man and woman knew.

The child, in time, of lovers had a dozen,

Then wed a gentleman upright and true.

And thus our hero had a double nature:

One half of him was bad, the other good.

The devil must exhaust his nomenclature

To make this puzzle rightly understood.

But when our hero and our heroine met

They were at once attracted, the repulsion

Was hidden under Passion, with her net

Which must enmesh you ere you feel revulsion.

The virus coursing in the soldier’s blood,

The orchard’s ghost, the unknown kinship ’twixt them,

Our hero’s mother’s lovers round them stood,

Shadows that smiled to see how Fate had fixed them.

This twain pledge vows and marry, that’s the play.

And then the tragic features rise and deepen.

He is a tender husband. When away

The serpents from the orchard slyly creep in.

Our heroine, born of spirit none too loyal,

Picks fruit of knowledge—leaves the tree of life.

Her fancy turns to France corrupt and royal,

Soon she forgets her duty as a wife.

You know the rest, so far as that’s concerned,

She met exposure and her husband slew her.

He lost his reason, for the love she spurned.

He prized her as his own—how slight he knew her.
[He waves a wand, showing a man in a prison cell.]

Now here he sits condemned to mount the gallows—

He could not tell his story—he is dumb.

Love, says your poets, is a grace that hallows,

I call it suffering and martyrdom.

The judge with pointed finger says, “You killed her.”

Well, so he did—but here’s the explanation;

He could not give it. I, the drama-builder,

Show you the various truths and their relation.
[He waves his wand.]

Now, to begin. The curtain is ascending,

They meet at tea upon a flowery lawn.

Fair, is it not? How sweet their souls are blending—

The author calls the play “Laocoon.”

A Voice:—Only an earth dream.

Another Voice:—With which we are done.

A flash of a comet

Upon the earth stream.

Another Voice:—A dream twice removed,

A spectral confusion

Of earth’s dread illusion.

A Far Voice:—These are the ghosts

From the desolate coasts.

Would you go to them?

Only pursue them.

Whatever enshrined is

Within you is you.

In a place where no wind is,

Out of the damps,

Be ye as lamps.

Flame-like aspire,

To me alone true,

The Life and the Fire.

[Beelzebub, Loki, and Yogarindra vanish. The phantasmagoria fades out. Where the dead seemed to have assembled, only heaps of leaves appear. There is the light as of dawn. Voices of Spring.]

First Voice:—The springtime is come, the winter departed,

She wakens from slumber and dances light-hearted.

The sun is returning

We are done with alarms,

Earth lifts her face burning,

Held close in his arms.

The sun is an eagle

Who broods o’er his young,

The earth is his nursling

In whom he has flung

The life-flame in seed,

In blossom desire,

Till fire become life,

And life become fire.

Second Voice:—I slip and I vanish,

I baffle your eye;

I dive and I climb,

I change and I fly.

You have me, you lose me,

Who have me too well,

Now find me and use me—

I am here in a cell.

Third Voice:—You are there in a cell?

Oh, now for a rod

With which to divine you—

Second Voice:—Nay, child, I am God.

Fourth Voice:—When the waking waters rise from their beds of snow, under the hill,

In little rooms of stone where they sleep when icicles reign,

The April breezes scurry through woodlands, saying “Fulfill!

Awaken roots under cover of soil—it is Spring again.”

Then the sun exults, the moon is at peace, and voices

Call to the silver shadows to lift the flowers from their dreams.

And a longing, longing enters my heart of sorrow, my heart that rejoices

In the fleeting glimpse of a shining face, and her hair that gleams.

I arise and follow alone for hours the winding way by the river,

Hunting a vanishing light, and a solace for joy too deep.

Where do you lead me, wild one, on and on forever?

Over the hill, over the hill, and down to the meadows of sleep.

The Sun:—Over the soundless depths of space for a hundred million miles

Speeds the soul of me, silent thunder, struck from a harp of fire.

Before my eyes the planets wheel and a universe defiles,

I but a luminant speck of dust upborne in a vast desire.

What is my universe that obeys me—myself compelled to obey

A power that holds me and whirls me over a path that has no end?

And there are my children who call me great, the giver of life and day,

Myself a child who cry for life and know not whither I tend.

A million million suns above me, as if the curtain of night

Were hung before creation’s flame, that shone through the weave of the cloth,

Each with its worlds and worlds and worlds crying upward for light,

For each is drawn in its course to what?—as the candle draws the moth.

The Milky Way:—Orbits unending,

Life never ending,

Power without end.

A Voice:—Wouldst thou be lord,

Not peace but a sword.

Not heart’s desire—

Ever aspire.

Worship thy power,

Conquer thy hour,

Sleep not but strive,

So shalt thou live.

Infinite Depths:—Infinite Law,

Infinite Life.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:46 pm
by jhu72
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:10 pm I'm not a big Bibi fan nor would my political leanings be considered right-wing but, to be fair, if the left-wing Israeli government didn't leave Gaza, didn't let Hamas become their "new Occupiers", things wouldn't be as they are right now. The Israeli right-wingers aren't wrong.
No one Israeli administration is responsible for ignoring Gaza and Hamas for 15+ years. They have all done it. Israel's right wing has used this time to make the likelihood of any peace settlement very unlikely. The only peace left is the peace of the dead - an Israeli right wing goal. Israel's left surrendered to the right 10+ years ago and didn't wake up until Bibi and friends tried to change the domestic rules of the road.

If Israel finds any peace as a result of current actions, it will be bought by tens of thousands of dead Palestinians.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:07 pm
by Kinduv
free pa1estine! treated 1ike pris0ners when they've d0ne nthing wr0ng, they're 1000% victims 0f israe1, israe1 is s0uth africa part 2, exact same, a1s0 1ike h00caust, t0ta1 gen0cide, apartheid, h010caust, hit1er, everything the w0r1d hates, that's what israe1 is d0ing, and thats n0t anti-jew, that's pr0-pa1estine,

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:11 pm
by youthathletics
jhu72 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:46 pm
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:10 pm I'm not a big Bibi fan nor would my political leanings be considered right-wing but, to be fair, if the left-wing Israeli government didn't leave Gaza, didn't let Hamas become their "new Occupiers", things wouldn't be as they are right now. The Israeli right-wingers aren't wrong.
No one Israeli administration is responsible for ignoring Gaza and Hamas for 15+ years. They have all done it. Israel's right wing has used this time to make the likelihood of any peace settlement very unlikely. The only peace left is the peace of the dead - an Israeli right wing goal. Israel's left surrendered to the right 10+ years ago and didn't wake up until Bibi and friends tried to change the domestic rules of the road.

If Israel finds any peace as a result of current actions, it will be bought by tens of thousands of dead Palestinians.
It started before Bibi, and that left wing was in fights with the Palestinians in the late 90's early 2k's. They have proven to hate jews throughout, regardless of what peace accords are drawn. https://reliefweb.int/report/israel/why ... -west-bank

Its why the only two options are really annihilation of Jews, otherwise it will only happen again OR more Muslim and ME countries stand in support of Israel. Option 3 will likely prevail....continued angst and eventually war, again.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:30 pm
by Matnum PI
It's the nature of the region. The Arabs, including the Palestinians, in general, hate the Jews. And, unless the Jews offer their neighbors something to take their mind of this hatred, they will fight, attack. Which is precisely what is happening now. Israel is a military and economic power. As long as they maintain this, Israel will be fine. As for Hamas, Isis, and otherwise, as long as rape, murder, and other atrocities exist, so will these terrorist organizations. Just a horrible reality about the world. Even when you seemingly eradicate the world of horrible, horrible people, there's always more evil and more people who support this evil.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:39 pm
by Kinduv
israe1 is evi1, they t00k israe1 s0 they c0u1d ki11 pa1estinian babies, that is evi1, c1ick br00k1yn's 1inks and get smart,,,

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:02 pm
by jhu72
youthathletics wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:11 pm
jhu72 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:46 pm
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:10 pm I'm not a big Bibi fan nor would my political leanings be considered right-wing but, to be fair, if the left-wing Israeli government didn't leave Gaza, didn't let Hamas become their "new Occupiers", things wouldn't be as they are right now. The Israeli right-wingers aren't wrong.
No one Israeli administration is responsible for ignoring Gaza and Hamas for 15+ years. They have all done it. Israel's right wing has used this time to make the likelihood of any peace settlement very unlikely. The only peace left is the peace of the dead - an Israeli right wing goal. Israel's left surrendered to the right 10+ years ago and didn't wake up until Bibi and friends tried to change the domestic rules of the road.

If Israel finds any peace as a result of current actions, it will be bought by tens of thousands of dead Palestinians.
It started before Bibi, and that left wing was in fights with the Palestinians in the late 90's early 2k's. They have proven to hate jews throughout, regardless of what peace accords are drawn. https://reliefweb.int/report/israel/why ... -west-bank

Its why the only two options are really annihilation of Jews, otherwise it will only happen again OR more Muslim and ME countries stand in support of Israel. Option 3 will likely prevail....continued angst and eventually war, again.
... how do we accuse the liberals of instituting the policy of withdraw from Gaza when Sharon was a member of Likud and the prime minister at the time??

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:06 pm
by Matnum PI
McConnell: https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... pIjCvOdu3d

Moral Equivalency In America Makes Israel’s Job Harder

‘I would remind our colleagues that Israel had negotiated a ceasefire with Hamas over the summer. And we all saw where that led on October 7th. Returning to any such arrangement right now would be amnesty for the butchers of innocent Israelis and Gazans, alike. Once again, let’s remember who the aggressor is.’

WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) delivered the following remarks today on the Senate floor regarding Israel’s fight against Hamas terrorists:

“As Israel continues to root out the Hamas terrorists who savaged innocent civilians on October 7th, the political left here in America appears to be engaged in a loud, public debate with itself over how exactly to differentiate indiscriminate slaughter and lawful self-defense.

“Last week, an especially radical House Democrat repeated to her followers a call to eliminate the Jewish state, ‘from the river to the sea’.

“Then, she attempted to explain away the undeniably genocidal connotation of this long-standing anti-Israel slogan as a call for, ‘peaceful coexistence’.

“Apparently, Jews can live in peace with Palestinians… as long as they vacate Israel.

“Unfortunately, the shameful moral equivalence that has been creeping across elite and influential corners of the left has now been embraced by a former Commander-in-Chief.

“Just a few days ago, President Obama used the same breath to express his horror at both Hamas violence and a supposed Israeli ‘occupation’ of Gaza. In reality, the only force that has occupied Gaza since 2007 is Hamas. Not Israel.

“The former President also said, ‘all of us are complicit to some degree.’ That is simply false. Responsibility lies with the terrorists.

“So, Madam President, perhaps President Obama has forgotten the bloody campaign to defeat ISIS over which he presided. Or the destruction of cities like Mosul and Raqqa in pursuit of medieval Islamic tyrants who terrorized innocent civilians.

“I don’t recall President Obama doubting the righteousness of American efforts to support local partners in rooting out terrorists in Iraq and Syria. Where is that moral clarity in the face of Hamas?

“Unfortunately, that brings me to the growing number of our Senate colleagues who have called for a ceasefire in today’s terrorist war.

“I would remind our colleagues that Israel had negotiated a ceasefire with Hamas over the summer. And we all saw where that led on October 7th. Returning to any such arrangement right now would be amnesty for the butchers of innocent Israelis and Gazans, alike.

“Once again, let’s remember who the aggressor is.

“Hamas is blocking citizens from leaving Gaza city. Hamas has intentionally put its weapons caches inside schools, hospitals, and mosques, and its firing positions in the middle of civilian populations. Hamas has poured countless billions of dollars in humanitarian assistance into its terror tunnels.

“These people are not freedom fighters. They do not want ‘peaceful coexistence’. They are savages, cut from the same cloth as ISIS and al-Qaeda.

“There is no room for moral equivalency. The distinction between good and evil here is blindingly obvious.

“Fortunately, some do recognize this. The Vice Chancellor of Germany, a member of his country’s Green Party, didn’t have any trouble finding the moral clarity this moment requires. In an address to the nation last week, he said, ‘Hamas does not want reconciliation with Israel, but the extermination of Israel. And this is why it is pivotal to make it clear that Israel’s right to exist must not be relativized. Israel’s security is our obligation.’

“American politicians who cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the same should be ashamed.

“This weekend marked 44 years since Iranian revolutionaries overran the U.S. embassy in Tehran and took 66 Americans hostage. Today, Americans are once again being held hostage by forces aligned with Iranian tyranny.

“Many more Israelis are being held alongside them. And Israel deserves the time, space, and support it needs to bring their terrorist captors to justice.

“In the days immediately following October 7th, I warned that President Biden would be pressured to withhold this support, and that familiar and morally bankrupt calls for ceasefire would threaten Israel’s ability to see its defensive operations through.

“But here we are, nearly a month later, watching the movement to grant Hamas amnesty reach the highest levels of our government.

“War is a bloody business. That is the reality Israel faces. We should be careful before second-guessing their efforts to get innocent Israelis – and Americans – home safely, and to destroy Hamas’ ability to wage war.”

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:22 pm
by jhu72
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:06 pm McConnell: https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... pIjCvOdu3d
... a call to shut up and let Israel kill whoever they want, collateral damage be damned. :roll:

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:29 pm
by a fan
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:06 pm McConnell: https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... pIjCvOdu3d
What did the 1st world do after 9/11? We invaded Afghanistan. Troops from all over the world. NATO went in. Even I, the biggest peacenik ever, understood that when you get attacked, you have to defend yourself.


What we're telling the Israelis in 2023 after a massive terrorist attack (still ongoing, btw) is: shut up and take it, and you better have a cease fire soon.

Pretty obvious from where I sit that Israel is going in to Gaza just like we did in Afghanistan...and ain't gonna leave.

We (Americans) do NOT hold the moral high ground here, folks. How many civilians did we kill over there over 20 years? Estimates are at 40K+, with no real number known.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:55 pm
by jhu72
a fan wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:29 pm
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:06 pm McConnell: https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... pIjCvOdu3d
What did the 1st world do after 9/11? We invaded Afghanistan. Troops from all over the world. NATO went in. Even I, the biggest peacenik ever, understood that when you get attacked, you have to defend yourself.


What we're telling the Israelis in 2023 after a massive terrorist attack (still ongoing, btw) is: shut up and take it, and you better have a cease fire soon.

Pretty obvious from where I sit that Israel is going in to Gaza just like we did in Afghanistan...and ain't gonna leave.

We (Americans) do NOT hold the moral high ground here, folks. How many civilians did we kill over there over 20 years? Estimates are at 40K+, with no real number known.
... I would guess a significantly smaller % of Afghan civilians were killed as collateral damage than Gazan civilians. This is not to justify what we did in Afghanistan. Just calls out the fact that the situation was cleaner. Bigger country with bigger population.

Would we do the same thing in Gaza if it was ours to do, you betcha, probably worse! Would it be right?

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:00 pm
by youthathletics
jhu72 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:02 pm
youthathletics wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:11 pm
jhu72 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:46 pm
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:10 pm I'm not a big Bibi fan nor would my political leanings be considered right-wing but, to be fair, if the left-wing Israeli government didn't leave Gaza, didn't let Hamas become their "new Occupiers", things wouldn't be as they are right now. The Israeli right-wingers aren't wrong.
No one Israeli administration is responsible for ignoring Gaza and Hamas for 15+ years. They have all done it. Israel's right wing has used this time to make the likelihood of any peace settlement very unlikely. The only peace left is the peace of the dead - an Israeli right wing goal. Israel's left surrendered to the right 10+ years ago and didn't wake up until Bibi and friends tried to change the domestic rules of the road.

If Israel finds any peace as a result of current actions, it will be bought by tens of thousands of dead Palestinians.
It started before Bibi, and that left wing was in fights with the Palestinians in the late 90's early 2k's. They have proven to hate jews throughout, regardless of what peace accords are drawn. https://reliefweb.int/report/israel/why ... -west-bank

Its why the only two options are really annihilation of Jews, otherwise it will only happen again OR more Muslim and ME countries stand in support of Israel. Option 3 will likely prevail....continued angst and eventually war, again.
... how do we accuse the liberals of instituting the policy of withdraw from Gaza when Sharon was a member of Likud and the prime minister at the time??
no one is accusing anyone on the Israeli side.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:04 pm
by jhu72
youthathletics wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:00 pm
jhu72 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:02 pm
youthathletics wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:11 pm
jhu72 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:46 pm
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:10 pm I'm not a big Bibi fan nor would my political leanings be considered right-wing but, to be fair, if the left-wing Israeli government didn't leave Gaza, didn't let Hamas become their "new Occupiers", things wouldn't be as they are right now. The Israeli right-wingers aren't wrong.
No one Israeli administration is responsible for ignoring Gaza and Hamas for 15+ years. They have all done it. Israel's right wing has used this time to make the likelihood of any peace settlement very unlikely. The only peace left is the peace of the dead - an Israeli right wing goal. Israel's left surrendered to the right 10+ years ago and didn't wake up until Bibi and friends tried to change the domestic rules of the road.

If Israel finds any peace as a result of current actions, it will be bought by tens of thousands of dead Palestinians.
It started before Bibi, and that left wing was in fights with the Palestinians in the late 90's early 2k's. They have proven to hate jews throughout, regardless of what peace accords are drawn. https://reliefweb.int/report/israel/why ... -west-bank

Its why the only two options are really annihilation of Jews, otherwise it will only happen again OR more Muslim and ME countries stand in support of Israel. Option 3 will likely prevail....continued angst and eventually war, again.
... how do we accuse the liberals of instituting the policy of withdraw from Gaza when Sharon was a member of Likud and the prime minister at the time??
no one is accusing anyone on the Israeli side.
... ah, it was a statement made by Matt, that was refuted by the article you referenced. Sorry.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:14 pm
by a fan
jhu72 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:55 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:29 pm
Matnum PI wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:06 pm McConnell: https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... pIjCvOdu3d
What did the 1st world do after 9/11? We invaded Afghanistan. Troops from all over the world. NATO went in. Even I, the biggest peacenik ever, understood that when you get attacked, you have to defend yourself.


What we're telling the Israelis in 2023 after a massive terrorist attack (still ongoing, btw) is: shut up and take it, and you better have a cease fire soon.

Pretty obvious from where I sit that Israel is going in to Gaza just like we did in Afghanistan...and ain't gonna leave.

We (Americans) do NOT hold the moral high ground here, folks. How many civilians did we kill over there over 20 years? Estimates are at 40K+, with no real number known.
... I would guess a significantly smaller % of Afghans were killed as collateral damage than in Gaza. This is not to justify what we did in Afghanistan. Just calls out the fact that the situation was cleaner. Bigger country with bigger population.

Would we do the same thing in Gaza if it was ours to do, you betcha, probably worse! Would it be right?
I'm not saying right v. wrong. I'm saying: we have no standing to point fingers at Israel. Nor do all the countries and NATO for participating in the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan.

Frankly, I'd bet we killed a lot more than 40K civilians in Afghanistan. 20 years. Door to door fighting. Bad intel. All the things....