LaxPower Back-Up Stick

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:14 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:26 pm It is important not to erase the history that memorializes what a difficult decision it was for Americans to choose between attacking or defending their home states.

No one is erasing the history. But I think it's not too much to ask to not CELEBRATE active rebellion to protect slavery.

Now you can say that each man fought for their own reason and all that.....but you can't escape the question that so many wish to avoid, and the question that makes each man's motivation for fighting for the South immaterial, as it relates to the outcome.

And that question is: what would have happened if the South won?

And when you answer that question, it becomes obvious to even the most obtuse observer that celebrating these men is, to put it politely, in poor taste.

Yet we still celebrate our founding fathers.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 115579444/

Some don't want to do that, either, as you very well know. And I gotta say, I don't blame them one bit. But with founding fathers? You can argue it was the time period, blah blah blah....and at least have some reasonableness to what you're saying.

But for those who would have kept Americans in chains for......who can say how many more decades? There's no wiggle room there, IMHO.

These are all opinions, obviously, OS. And the shades of gray you are always telling me that I need to use more, and stop being an "all or nothing" guy...........

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:14 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:26 pm It is important not to erase the history that memorializes what a difficult decision it was for Americans to choose between attacking or defending their home states.

No one is erasing the history. But I think it's not too much to ask to not CELEBRATE active rebellion to protect slavery.

Now you can say that each man fought for their own reason and all that.....but you can't escape the question that so many wish to avoid, and the question that makes each man's motivation for fighting for the South immaterial, as it relates to the outcome.

And that question is: what would have happened if the South won?

And when you answer that question, it becomes obvious to even the most obtuse observer that celebrating these men is, to put it politely, in poor taste.

Yet we still celebrate our founding fathers.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 115579444/

Sands through the hour glass.

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:14 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:26 pm It is important not to erase the history that memorializes what a difficult decision it was for Americans to choose between attacking or defending their home states.

No one is erasing the history. But I think it's not too much to ask to not CELEBRATE active rebellion to protect slavery.

Now you can say that each man fought for their own reason and all that.....but you can't escape the question that so many wish to avoid, and the question that makes each man's motivation for fighting for the South immaterial, as it relates to the outcome.

And that question is: what would have happened if the South won?

And when you answer that question, it becomes obvious to even the most obtuse observer that celebrating these men is, to put it politely, in poor taste.

Yet we still celebrate our founding fathers.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 115579444/

Some don't want to do that, either, as you very well know. And I gotta say, I don't blame them one bit. But with founding fathers? You can argue it was the time period, blah blah blah....and at least have some reasonableness to what you're saying.

But for those who would have kept Americans in chains for......who can say how many more decades? There's no wiggle room there, IMHO.

These are all opinions, obviously, OS. And the shades of gray you are always telling me that I need to use more, and stop being an "all or nothing" guy...........

1860 was much closer to 1776 than 2021, in more than just years. So let's just erase history & cancel them all. Don't you feel superior now ?

Nuance

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:38 pmNuance

...escapes the old moderator.

It's almost comical.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:32 pm 1860 was much closer to 1776 than 2021, in more than just years. So let's just erase history & cancel them all. Don't you feel superior now ?

So if we don't have these statues up, you think we're "erasing history"?

Then what does that say about all the history we've erased that there's only handful of statues of women on Federal land.

And what does it say that according to the WaPo, the US Capitol has three times as many Confederate statues as it does Black Americans? That's a whole mess of 'erased history" that none of us should be proud of, imho.

Are you outraged that we "erased the history" of all those women and black Americans? Or does this just apply to Confederate statues?



I don't feel superior, thank you for asking. I simply don't think it's unreasonable to not want to celebrate people who tried to put Americans in chains.

So if you want to celebrate Jefferson? One way to do that is: don't put up a statue of the man.....celebrate his writings, instead. Because what are we celebrating with a statue, for heaven's sake? That he was good looking? Lol. No statue needed.....preserve his words, which is what we celebrate him for in the first place.

Ever been to the Jefferson Memorial? I visited there all the time. It wouldn't suffer---not even a little----if you pulled the statue, and left his words chiseled in stone.

Just an opinion. Obviously you don't agree.

So when do we pull down the Washington Monument ?

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:14 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:26 pm It is important not to erase the history that memorializes what a difficult decision it was for Americans to choose between attacking or defending their home states.

No one is erasing the history. But I think it's not too much to ask to not CELEBRATE active rebellion to protect slavery.

Now you can say that each man fought for their own reason and all that.....but you can't escape the question that so many wish to avoid, and the question that makes each man's motivation for fighting for the South immaterial, as it relates to the outcome.

And that question is: what would have happened if the South won?

And when you answer that question, it becomes obvious to even the most obtuse observer that celebrating these men is, to put it politely, in poor taste.

Yet we still celebrate our founding fathers.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 115579444/

Some don't want to do that, either, as you very well know. And I gotta say, I don't blame them one bit. But with founding fathers? You can argue it was the time period, blah blah blah....and at least have some reasonableness to what you're saying.

But for those who would have kept Americans in chains for......who can say how many more decades? There's no wiggle room there, IMHO.

These are all opinions, obviously, OS. And the shades of gray you are always telling me that I need to use more, and stop being an "all or nothing" guy...........

The better argument re 'founding fathers' is not that it was even further ago, but that they actually founded the country in which most of us feel blessed to live in and created and adopted a form of government which most of feel blessed to part of as voting citizens.

Was it perfect??? Certainly not.
Were those men perfect? Certainly not.

But they set the foundations upon which we are called to perfect our society peacefully.
And that is indeed worth celebrating.

In contrast, we have traitors to this country being celebrated not for their actual historical contributions in some way, but rather as a means to intimidate and control a portion of our population. That's what these specific representations, whether portraits or statues or building or street, or base names, have meant in America. Often explicitly so.

But this needn't mean that someone can't be honored, if done for sound, good reasons, with full context explicated.

So, for instance, I think that Lee's name used at Washington & Lee can be justified due to his critical contributions to that school post Civil War, in keeping with his overall actions post War. It's part of a redemptive legacy for someone who might well have been hanged as a traitor and should never be honored for his role in that terrible war that so many lives for the cause of slavery...In that context, I also applaud the replacement, recently of the portraits of Lee in Confederate battle dress with portraits of him in civilian attire as he actually wore during his tenure as President of the school.

Indeed, it's outrageous for any portrait of Lee in Confederate uniform to ever be hung in a place of honor. But that doesn't mean his full life and contributions can't be appropriately honored in specific context.

And given his traitorous actions in the cause of slavery, any such must always be accompanied with an historical explanation of the context, lest it be misunderstood.

Who cares about monuments? They’re pretty broke down in Rome and Athens. Worth about the same as Rodney Dangerfields views of golf courses and cemeteries.

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:32 pm 1860 was much closer to 1776 than 2021, in more than just years. So let's just erase history & cancel them all. Don't you feel superior now ?

So if we don't have these statues up, you think we're "erasing history"?

Then what does that say about all the history we've erased that there's only handful of statues of women on Federal land.

And what does it say that according to the WaPo, the US Capitol has three times as many Confederate statues as it does Black Americans? That's a whole mess of 'erased history" that none of us should be proud of, imho.

Are you outraged that we "erased the history" of all those women and black Americans? Or does this just apply to Confederate statues?



I don't feel superior, thank you for asking. I simply don't think it's unreasonable to not want to celebrate people who tried to put Americans in chains.

So if you want to celebrate Jefferson? One way to do that is: don't put up a statue of the man.....celebrate his writings, instead. Because what are we celebrating with a statue, for heaven's sake? That he was good looking? Lol. No statue needed.....preserve his words, which is what we celebrate him for in the first place.

Ever been to the Jefferson Memorial? I visited there all the time. It wouldn't suffer---not even a little----if you pulled the statue, and left his words chiseled in stone.

Just an opinion. Obviously you don't agree.

I don't agree re Jefferson's memorial, for the reasons I described about the founders more generally. All in context.
Salty's right (broken clock is right twice a day) re the Washington monument (though arguably it's not a statue of the man, but rather the ideals he represented, including his decision to pass power peacefully).

Traitors for the cause of slavery, whole all other story. No basis for celebration.

And I obviously totally agree with your point about the lack of representation beyond the white men.

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm Who cares about monuments? They’re pretty broke down in Rome and Athens. Worth about the same as Rodney Dangerfields views of golf courses and cemeteries.

Those who understood them to be tools for intimidation and control.

Whether intimidator or targets, they meant and mean a lot. That's why we care.

But sure, in another 2000 years those monuments will be crumbled away.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:01 pm The better argument re 'founding fathers' is not that it was even further ago, but that they actually founded the country in which most of us feel blessed to live in and created and adopted a form of government which most of feel blessed to part of as voting citizens.

Was it perfect??? Certainly not.
Were those men perfect? Certainly not.

But they set the foundations upon which we are called to perfect our society peacefully.

Right. It was their IDEAS that we're celebrating. So.....memorialize that. These things are SUPPOSED to be symbols, right?

Well----put some thought into them, is what I'd offer. Make them thoughtful symbols for what we view as important in America.

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:16 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:01 pm The better argument re 'founding fathers' is not that it was even further ago, but that they actually founded the country in which most of us feel blessed to live in and created and adopted a form of government which most of feel blessed to part of as voting citizens.

Was it perfect??? Certainly not.
Were those men perfect? Certainly not.

But they set the foundations upon which we are called to perfect our society peacefully.

Right. It was their IDEAS that we're celebrating. So.....memorialize that. These things are SUPPOSED to be symbols, right?

Well----put some thought into them, is what I'd offer. Make them thoughtful symbols for what we view as important in America.

Ideas, and the risks they took to bring those ideas to fruition, though imperfectly.
But definitely foundational...and the risks were very, very real.

Totally agree, make them thoughtful...and worthy of the honor.
Make clear what is being honored and why.

a fan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:32 pm 1860 was much closer to 1776 than 2021, in more than just years. So let's just erase history & cancel them all. Don't you feel superior now ?

So if we don't have these statues up, you think we're "erasing history"?

Then what does that say about all the history we've erased that there's only handful of statues of women on Federal land.

And what does it say that according to the WaPo, the US Capitol has three times as many Confederate statues as it does Black Americans? That's a whole mess of 'erased history" that none of us should be proud of, imho.

Are you outraged that we "erased the history" of all those women and black Americans? Or does this just apply to Confederate statues?



I don't feel superior, thank you for asking. I simply don't think it's unreasonable to not want to celebrate people who tried to put Americans in chains.

So if you want to celebrate Jefferson? One way to do that is: don't put up a statue of the man.....celebrate his writings, instead. Because what are we celebrating with a statue, for heaven's sake? That he was good looking? Lol. No statue needed.....preserve his words, which is what we celebrate him for in the first place.

Ever been to the Jefferson Memorial? I visited there all the time. It wouldn't suffer---not even a little----if you pulled the statue, and left his words chiseled in stone.

Just an opinion. Obviously you don't agree.

That is CRT talk…..Like Old Salt said, the winners write the history. The winners get to do the “indoctrination”.

I want my money back from the government.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:07 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm Who cares about monuments? They’re pretty broke down in Rome and Athens. Worth about the same as Rodney Dangerfields views of golf courses and cemeteries.

Those who understood them to be tools for intimidation and control.

Whether intimidator or targets, they meant and mean a lot. That's why we care.

But sure, in another 2000 years those monuments will be crumbled away.

Should we care?

Nobody cares about the statues (except the pigeons), until they can be used as a totem to victimhood.

Just like the names of Army bases. Colin Powell said that as a young junior officer, he never gave a thought to the name of the base (or building, or street). He was more concerned about how the locals outside the gate treated him.

The moral judgments, across centuries, & the virtue signalling in this forum are suffocating.

Wait until future generations judge you. I got mine.
Control of Women or Population Control ? ...how many black babies have been aborted ?
Planned Parenthood ? Condoms have always been cheap or free, to prevent std's. Just go see doc in sick bay.

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:07 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm Who cares about monuments? They’re pretty broke down in Rome and Athens. Worth about the same as Rodney Dangerfields views of golf courses and cemeteries.

Those who understood them to be tools for intimidation and control.

Whether intimidator or targets, they meant and mean a lot. That's why we care.

But sure, in another 2000 years those monuments will be crumbled away.

Should we care?

yes.
Easy answer.
The intimidators remain very very active.

For instance, equality, for those like Salty, is about a loss of power.
He identifies with those who built those statues, named those bases, hung those portraits...all to intimidate and control others.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:27 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:07 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm Who cares about monuments? They’re pretty broke down in Rome and Athens. Worth about the same as Rodney Dangerfields views of golf courses and cemeteries.

Those who understood them to be tools for intimidation and control.

Whether intimidator or targets, they meant and mean a lot. That's why we care.

But sure, in another 2000 years those monuments will be crumbled away.

Should we care?

yes.
Easy answer.
The intimidators remain very very active.

For instance, equality, for those like Salty, is about a loss of power.
He identifies with those who built those statues, named those bases, hung those portraits...all to intimidate and control others.

...as a Planned Parenthood booster, are you ready to remove Margaret Sanger's portrait & statue ?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 480192002/

Who is out to intimidate & control others ?

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:27 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:07 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm Who cares about monuments? They’re pretty broke down in Rome and Athens. Worth about the same as Rodney Dangerfields views of golf courses and cemeteries.

Those who understood them to be tools for intimidation and control.

Whether intimidator or targets, they meant and mean a lot. That's why we care.

But sure, in another 2000 years those monuments will be crumbled away.

Should we care?

yes.
Easy answer.
The intimidators remain very very active.

For instance, equality, for those like Salty, is about a loss of power.
He identifies with those who built those statues, named those bases, hung those portraits...all to intimidate and control others.

...as a Planned Parenthood booster, are you ready to remove Margaret Sanger's portrait & statue ?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 480192002/

Who is out to intimidate & control others ?

That 1619 lady?

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:27 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:07 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm Who cares about monuments? They’re pretty broke down in Rome and Athens. Worth about the same as Rodney Dangerfields views of golf courses and cemeteries.

Those who understood them to be tools for intimidation and control.

Whether intimidator or targets, they meant and mean a lot. That's why we care.

But sure, in another 2000 years those monuments will be crumbled away.

Should we care?

yes.
Easy answer.
The intimidators remain very very active.

For instance, equality, for those like Salty, is about a loss of power.
He identifies with those who built those statues, named those bases, hung those portraits...all to intimidate and control others.

...as a Planned Parenthood booster, are you ready to remove Margaret Sanger's portrait & statue ?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 480192002/

Who is out to intimidate & control others ?

I'm neither a Planned Parenthood booster nor certainly not a fan of Margaret Sanger.

Being a racist is not limited to white men, white women too!

But it is quite false that the Planned Parenthood of today is locating clinics in areas out of a racist intent, but they do target poverty, where women have difficulty getting good health care. But not at all necessarily African American. Heck, my wife used Planned Parenthood back during her college years over 40 years ago in a poor, nearly entirely white town near Hanover NH, along with other young women at Dartmouth, Colby Sawyer, and more importantly the poor women of that area who had very limited access to confidential birth control, Pap smears, and/or other women's health care during that era.