LaxPower Back-Up Stick

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:43 pm

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:33 pm The dissembling here is amazing. The need for the action at the Capitol was to delay the certification of the electoral college to give time to persuade Pence and others to steal the election by overturning legitimate votes.

The real sedition was the attempt to overturn the election of Biden and Harris. Nothing legal about it. And that is even more important to prosecute.

+1

After months of taking exception to our pointing out that there was a disproportionate # of military vets and current or ex law enforcement personnel in the vanguard of the action, pooh poohing that there was any organization, Salty now wants to label these a-holes as just incompetents...and focus our attention on why the Capitol Police didn't open fire on the crowd, them darn incompetents defending the Capitol...all really to just draw attention from the BIG Crime, the actual effort to overthrow the election..

We were one man away from a Constitutional crisis. And before Pence's ultimate call to separate from that effort, teetering as he was, there were a series of other honest GOP officials who pushed back, any one or two of which going the other way might well have given Pence sufficient pretext to tilt the other way. Competing elector slates...throw it back to the State Legislatures...or better yet, directly to the House...Trump remains POTUS.

We were, really, really close.

But hey, "squirrel"...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 14d7f5733a

...the department does not appear to be directly investigating the person whose desperate bid to stay in office motivated the mayhem — former president Donald Trump — either for potentially inciting a riot or for what some observers see as a related pressure campaign to overturn the results of the election.

The House select committee on Jan. 6 is investigating both matters, separate from the Justice Department, and has aggressively pursued information about Trump and those closest to him. But FBI agents have not, for example, sought to interview or gather materials from some of Trump’s most loyal lieutenants about their strategy sessions at the Willard hotel on how to overturn the results of the 2020 election, according to participants in those meetings or their representatives.

The department has not reached out to the Georgia secretary of state’s office about Trump urging its leader to “find” enough votes to reverse his defeat, a person familiar with the office said, even as a local district attorney investigates that matter.

The Trump campaign has not received requests for documents or interviews from the FBI or Justice Department related to Jan. 6 or the effort to overturn the election results, and federal prosecutors have not sought to interview those with knowledge of Trump’s consideration of a plan to install an attorney general more amenable to his unfounded claims of massive voter fraud, according to people familiar with the matter who like others spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing case. The Justice Department inspector general is investigating the aborted plan and could ultimately ask prosecutors to consider whether crimes were committed.

Attorney General Merrick Garland has vowed to hold accountable all those responsible for the Jan. 6 riot — whether they were at the Capitol or committed related crimes. “The actions we have taken thus far will not be our last,” Garland said in a Jan. 5 speech marking the anniversary of the Capitol breach.
But some legal analysts say they worry Garland might be moving too cautiously.

“The other shoe has yet to drop — that is: When will the Justice Department promptly and exhaustively investigate the part of the coup attempt that I believe came perilously close to ending American constitutional democracy, basically, without a drop of blood?” said Harvard Law School Professor Laurence Tribe, a constitutional scholar and outspoken Trump critic.

A spokesman for the D.C. U.S. attorney’s office, which is leading the criminal investigation, declined to comment. A spokesman for Garland pointed to the recent speech, in which the attorney general said the department would “follow the facts” and “must speak through our work.” A spokesman for Trump did not respond to requests for comment.

A difficult case
Most analysts — even those who want more aggressive action — acknowledge that building a viable criminal case against the former president would be challenging.

Investigators might consider exploring whether the president criminally incited the crowd that ultimately marched to and stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6 when he said at the rally preceding the riot: “And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

But such speech could be considered protected by the First Amendment, and Trump is hardly the first politician to call on his supporters to fight.

While Trump told the crowd to march to the Capitol and vowed to join them — even though he had no plans to do so — there is no evidence that he knew they planned to storm the building.

Investigators might also consider whether Trump’s pressure on Georgia’s secretary of state to “find” votes for him — combined with other legal and legislative maneuvering to prevent his loss from being finalized — was part of a criminal conspiracy to impede government functioning. But if Trump genuinely believed the election was stolen from him, experts say, it would be hard to construe his contesting the outcome as a crime.

“We better be real careful that we don’t start taking political and emotional comments by public figures and try to turn them into the stuff of criminal prosecutions,” former federal prosecutor James Trusty said.

Almost from the investigation’s outset, Justice Department officials have debated how to proceed in the sprawling and politically sensitive case.

At first, according to people familiar with the matter, a few prosecutors in the D.C. U.S. attorney’s office wanted to use subpoenas and search warrants to go after records of some rally organizers or speakers.

But the FBI, Justice Department officials and Michael R. Sherwin — who was appointed as the acting D.C. U.S. attorney during the Trump administration and continued to lead the probe after stepping down from that post — resisted the idea, arguing that they would be trampling on demonstrators’ First Amendment rights, the people said.

Instead, the Justice Department decided to investigate those who were caught on video committing crimes and see whether they could connect them to higher-level targets.

Prosecutors have so far charged more than 725 people in connection with the attack, and FBI agents are seeking about 200 more. Although most were not part of planned conspiracies or members of far-right groups, the department has alleged some more sophisticated plots.

Perhaps most significantly, the FBI on Thursday arrested founder and leader of the extremist group Oath Keepers Stewart Rhodes, charging him and 10 others with seditious conspiracy. It is the first time prosecutors brought sedition charges in the investigation, even though the D.C. U.S. attorney’s office prepared a memo almost a year ago detailing how such a case could be made.

Prosecutors alleged that Rhodes and his associates planned to stop the transfer of power to President Biden and armed themselves with weapons and combat gear as they came to Washington from across the country. Analysts said prosecutors will surely use the serious charge to try to persuade Oath Keepers to cooperate in the investigation.

The indictment suggests Rhodes was mindful of what Trump was saying on Jan. 6, although Rhodes appeared to be frustrated by it.

“All I see Trump doing is complaining. I see no intent by him to do anything. So the patriots are taking it into their own hands. They’ve had enough,” he wrote to a group chat that day, according to the indictment.

Jonathan Moseley, who has been representing Rhodes, said his client had been scheduled to testify before the Jan. 6 House committee next month but now wouldn’t be doing so.

“They’re not going to get their interview or their documents,” he said. “This is sort of a collision between these two inquiries.”

Moseley said he has no indication of whether the Justice Department investigation is headed toward Trump but said Rhodes’s arrest was notable because he had not been inside the Capitol.
“That line has been crossed,” Moseley said.

Harry Litman, a former deputy assistant attorney general, said the indictment of Rhodes, who maintains he is innocent, was a significant step. But “whether they can do the hop, skip and jump from there to the Oval Office remains to be seen,” Litman said.

Rob Jenkins, a defense attorney representing multiple people linked to the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, another far-right group, said prosecutors have been “pretty aggressive” in “seeking out information . . . that points to others’ involvement and culpability.”

They are interested, he said, in “preplanning, and participation in those preplanning on the part of the individuals who may not have come to D.C. on Jan 6 but were certainly part of the planned effort.” That includes both leaders in the groups and people who spoke at the rally on Jan. 6, including close Trump allies Rudolph W. Giuliani and Roger Stone, he said.

“There was a lot of talk,” Jenkins said. “But I haven’t seen anything that would make them criminally liable.”
Stanley Brand, a former U.S. House counsel who now represents some Jan. 6 witnesses and defendants, said the approach is standard.
“Like all Department of Justice investigations, they begin at the lower rungs,” he said. “But the difference here is the lower rungs are as wide as the ocean, and there’s no evidence yet of them investigating much above that.”

Critical to any investigation would be gleaning Trump’s intentions, analysts said. Did his failure to immediately and forcefully tell rioters to stand down once they attacked police and breached the Capitol indicate that he meant his words to spark violence?

Did he already know he had lost when he pressured Vice President Mike Pence to reject electoral votes on the House floor or when he urged Georgia’s secretary of state to find Trump votes?

“The key in pretty much all these crimes would be proving corrupt intent, because Trump is going to come in and say, when he was pressuring Pence, ‘I was told by my advisers that he had this legal authority, and I was just repeating that.’ And that could be difficult to overcome,” former federal prosecutor Randall Eliason said.

Many of those whose conduct might be at issue in a Trump-focused probe said they had yet to be contacted by federal prosecutors. Some seemed skeptical there was cause to do so.

A person directly involved in planning the rally, for example, said they had received no FBI or Justice Department requests, despite having spent six hours taking questions about the matter before the House committee that is separately investigating the riot. The person spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect their privacy.

A Pence aide said the former vice president’s office had received no FBI or Justice Department outreach. At least 11 former campaign and White House aides — including seven who have been in touch with the Jan. 6 House committee — said they had received no inquiries from the Justice Department.

Former New York City police commissioner Bernard Kerik, who was among those at the Willard hotel “command center” where Trump allies plotted strategy to bring about a second Trump term, told The Washington Post he had “no DOJ contact.”
“I wasn’t involved in January 6. I don’t know anything about the Capitol, and nobody’s contacted me about it,” he said.

John Eastman — a lawyer who spoke at the rally on Jan. 6 and had outlined scenarios for denying Biden the presidency in a meeting days earlier with Trump and Pence — said he had not heard from the Justice Department, either. If other rally speakers were contacted by the department, he said, “they really would be going after people’s perfectly valid, constitutionally protected First Amendment rights.”

That the Justice Department has yet to turn its attention directly to Trump and his close allies does not mean it never will, and analysts note that much could be happening in secret. Investigators could seek communication records of those at the Willard hotel from phone or email providers, for example, in such a way that those whose records are at issue never found out.

Eliason said prosecutors also might have good reason for waiting to seek interviews with high-profile, politically connected officials. “If you just go in and talk to them cold in the first month of the investigation, they’re not going to tell you anything,” he said.

The department, though, has faced pressure to do more, including the possibility of criminal referrals from the House committee.

Garland’s public vow to hold accountable all those responsible for Jan. 6 allayed the concerns of some who had been pushing for more aggressive investigation. Donald Ayer, a former deputy attorney general who co-wrote the New York Times column with Tribe, said he still felt it was “very important that the Justice Department be focused on investigating the upper-level people, as well as the people who were present on Capitol Hill that day, people that organized it, people that funded it.”

Of Garland, he added: “I’m prepared to wait and see what he does, believing that he’s going to do what he said he’s going to do.”
Tribe said he remained “somewhat disappointed” in Garland’s caution, though he was heartened by the indictment of Rhodes.
“It’s a virtuous characteristic in an attorney general, and it will serve him well if — contrary to current appearances — he manages to come to a conclusion in time,” Tribe said. “But the very great danger, and it grows with every passing hour, is that the clock will run out.”

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 amThe left is doing everything they can to gin up 1/6 for all the political capital they can get. That is why you never let a good crisis go to waste. The Republicans did the same thing with Benghazi. I have no problem with the Democrat party using every thing they can squeeze out of 1/6 for gaining any possible political leverage. My issue is portraying the riot of 1/6 as being an insurrection desiegned to overthrow the government and an election. I understand why the Dems are throwing that out. You throw enough stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. I'm still trying to figure this out. The Dems on this forum remind us every day how stupid right wing Republicans are. Then in the same breath give them credit for being so deviously clever to develope a plan to overthrow a legitimate election. How do stupid people do that? Right wing Republicans are capable of being incredibly dumb and clever all at the same time. That is quite an accomplishment indeed.

Au Contraire, Uncle Cranky. The evidence of a COUP is ALL OVER THE PLACE...smoking guns galore. Stupid is as stupid does, my friend and trying to say they're all just as stupid as all of us accuse them of being...is pretty stupid. To answer your question: "How do stupid people do that?" well, that's pretty obvious...they have a REALLY stupid person as their ideological leader, who then goes out and recruits stupid talking heads who then go out and convince other stupid followers, through the use of extensive lies and disinformation, into believing the stupid stuff they peddle. That's what grifters do. It's all manifestly stupid. And it's driving the ideology of the right these days in a broad swath of ways.

Evidence is ALL AROUND YOU here, my friend, and your insistence on looking the other way, obscuring your vision with the acts of the unwashed masses of stupid that descended on the Capitol that day...doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate the stupid.

There are many places to educate yourself. Take advantage, if you dare.

Trump's Electoral Forgery/Fraud

..

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:48 am

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:22 am

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:59 pmMy point has always been, & remains, that this cast of clowns was not competent enough to pull off a coup, insurrection, junta, or whatever you want to call it, that could overturn the results of the election, prevent a transition to Biden, or keep Trump in office. ...no matter how many guns they left in their VA hotel.

Myopic and ignorant beyond belief. The fact that so many trumpists feel this way is yet ANOTHER way that disinformation and tribal information silos just funnel these people full of stupid. What do they hear when they hear Peter Navarro describe the green Bay Sweep? Navarro FLAT OUT STATES that they wanted to throw the election back to the state legislatures. The "Cast of Clowns" whipped up by the Ultimate Clown, certainly worked as a great smoke screen for the insurrection going on all around and behind the outrage patina "Show Coup" going on at the capitol.

What's worse, if left to the narrative this poster prefers, our country is heading to a very dark place, tout suite.

..

In 2000 a similar cast of Democrat clowns whined and moaned and b****ed and complained that the SCOTUS stole the election from the Democrats. The simple fact was that stupid voters in Florida, many of them Democrats, could not figure out how to punch a ballot card. So the remedy was to recount all those " hanging chads" so the mind readers in the Democrat party could decipher who those people "really" wanted to vote for..

The fundamental flaw was not the voter as much as the lack of good punch technology to make the selection. Notice how an actual hole puncher has a mating surface on the back side to guarantee the piece of removed paper/cardboard is completely removed. No such technology in a mailed or in person ballot - just some sort of lance to poke out the punch. Guaranteed to sometimes not completely remove the chad.

I once voted absentee using just that tech - 1976 election. I knew as a computer operator in the evenings at my college to look for the pieces, but someone who had never handled Hollerith cards would not necessarily know to do so.

The advantage was if punched correctly it made counting electronically possible, and allowed the retirement of big mechanical voting machines. But quite prone to failure.

The Supreme Court made a big mistake in overriding the state of Florida counting process IMHO.

And whether the election was "stolen" would not be an issue if the recount was allowed to completion. (Most observers think it still would have gone to Bush, but would have been somewhat closer). But to say the objections at the time have any relationship to the 2020 election is bothsideism in a big way.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:47 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:43 pm

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:33 pm The dissembling here is amazing. The need for the action at the Capitol was to delay the certification of the electoral college to give time to persuade Pence and others to steal the election by overturning legitimate votes.

The real sedition was the attempt to overturn the election of Biden and Harris. Nothing legal about it. And that is even more important to prosecute.

+1

We were, really, really close.

But hey, "squirrel"...

Close? Lemma guess, you sleep with the lights on?

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:56 am

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 amThe left is doing everything they can to gin up 1/6 for all the political capital they can get. That is why you never let a good crisis go to waste. The Republicans did the same thing with Benghazi. I have no problem with the Democrat party using every thing they can squeeze out of 1/6 for gaining any possible political leverage. My issue is portraying the riot of 1/6 as being an insurrection desiegned to overthrow the government and an election. I understand why the Dems are throwing that out. You throw enough stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. I'm still trying to figure this out. The Dems on this forum remind us every day how stupid right wing Republicans are. Then in the same breath give them credit for being so deviously clever to develope a plan to overthrow a legitimate election. How do stupid people do that? Right wing Republicans are capable of being incredibly dumb and clever all at the same time. That is quite an accomplishment indeed.

Au Contraire, Uncle Cranky. The evidence of a COUP is ALL OVER THE PLACE...smoking guns galore. Stupid is as stupid does, my friend and trying to say they're all just as stupid as all of us accuse them of being...is pretty stupid. To answer your question: "How do stupid people do that?" well, that's pretty obvious...they have a REALLY stupid person as their ideological leader, who then goes out and recruits stupid talking heads who then go out and convince other stupid followers, through the use of extensive lies and disinformation, into believing the stupid stuff they peddle. That's what grifters do. It's all manifestly stupid. And it's driving the ideology of the right these days in a broad swath of ways.

Evidence is ALL AROUND YOU here, my friend, and your insistence on looking the other way, obscuring your vision with the acts of the unwashed masses of stupid that descended on the Capitol that day...doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate the stupid.

There are many places to educate yourself. Take advantage, if you dare.

Trump's Electoral Forgery/Fraud

..

So a few thousand ignorant hillbillies with shotgun racks in their pick up trucks were going to overthrow our election. How were they going to pull this Houdini trick off? Do you even comprehend the stupidity of what you are implying? Maybe those Antifa folks in Portland would actually succeed in creating their own sovereign nation as well? I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble. We live in a country that spends 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year to defend our nation against all enemies.. foreign and domestic. I think there was never a point in time where the US Government was threatened by these clowns. Hey if that fantasy floats your boat, more power to you. You ever figure out who was hiding in the grassy knoll that day in Dallas?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:56 am

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 amThe left is doing everything they can to gin up 1/6 for all the political capital they can get. That is why you never let a good crisis go to waste. The Republicans did the same thing with Benghazi. I have no problem with the Democrat party using every thing they can squeeze out of 1/6 for gaining any possible political leverage. My issue is portraying the riot of 1/6 as being an insurrection desiegned to overthrow the government and an election. I understand why the Dems are throwing that out. You throw enough stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. I'm still trying to figure this out. The Dems on this forum remind us every day how stupid right wing Republicans are. Then in the same breath give them credit for being so deviously clever to develope a plan to overthrow a legitimate election. How do stupid people do that? Right wing Republicans are capable of being incredibly dumb and clever all at the same time. That is quite an accomplishment indeed.

Au Contraire, Uncle Cranky. The evidence of a COUP is ALL OVER THE PLACE...smoking guns galore. Stupid is as stupid does, my friend and trying to say they're all just as stupid as all of us accuse them of being...is pretty stupid. To answer your question: "How do stupid people do that?" well, that's pretty obvious...they have a REALLY stupid person as their ideological leader, who then goes out and recruits stupid talking heads who then go out and convince other stupid followers, through the use of extensive lies and disinformation, into believing the stupid stuff they peddle. That's what grifters do. It's all manifestly stupid. And it's driving the ideology of the right these days in a broad swath of ways.

Evidence is ALL AROUND YOU here, my friend, and your insistence on looking the other way, obscuring your vision with the acts of the unwashed masses of stupid that descended on the Capitol that day...doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate the stupid.

There are many places to educate yourself. Take advantage, if you dare.

Trump's Electoral Forgery/Fraud

..

So a few thousand ignorant hillbillies with shotgun racks in their pick up trucks were going to overthrow our election. How were they going to pull this Houdini trick off? Do you even comprehend the stupidity of what you are implying? Maybe those Antifa folks in Portland would actually succeed in creating their own sovereign nation as well? I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble. We live in a country that spends 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year to defend our nation against all enemies.. foreign and domestic. I think there was never a point in time where the US Government was threatened by these clowns. Hey if that fantasy floats your boat, more power to you. You ever figure out who was hiding in the grassy knoll that day in Dallas?

Stop it, cradle.

The coup attempt was real, the violent "hillbillies" were just a small part.

The far more serious part was the attempt to literally ignore the election results, and instead accept the GOP electors sent instead and/or to use that confusion to throw it back to the GOP state legislators or directly to the House...all such resulting in Trump's installment ongoing. That effort involved a heck of a lot of people, elected officials, GOP activists....all the way up through the White House. Tons of evidence has already been revealed, much more to come.

We'll see if the vanguard of the violent part was communicating with the Trumpist "war room" as well (there's evidence of such) and hopefully what their game plan was...personally I think the original intent had been to have a very violent conflict happen with counter protestors (weapons cache) and then martial law to be declared. No counterprotesters, plan shifted to storming the Capitol, pressuring Pence. I hope we find out.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:12 amThere was no coup attempt. Stop repeating that horsechitt just because you believe it. You make yourself look really foolish. I stand a better chance of paying no taxes this year than these dumb ass redneck hill billies had of overturning an election. You seem to think if you keep repeating the same horsechitt over and over and over and over that people will believe it. I was extremely angry at this assault on our Capital and the people involved. If a couple thousand unarmed hillbilly rednecks could actually organize a coup to overturn a US election then our country has bigger problems than we know. I know a bunch of anarchists in Portland didn't succeed in creating their own sovereign state. When you get back to the real world MD.. let's chat.

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:22 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:12 amThere was no coup attempt. Stop repeating that horsechitt just because you believe it. You make yourself look really foolish. I stand a better chance of paying no taxes this year than these dumb ass redneck hill billies had of overturning an election. You seem to think if you keep repeating the same horsechitt over and over and over and over that people will believe it. I was extremely angry at this assault on our Capital and the people involved. If a couple thousand unarmed hillbilly rednecks could actually organize a coup to overturn a US election then our country has bigger problems than we know. I know a bunch of anarchists in Portland didn't succeed in creating their own sovereign state. When you get back to the real world MD.. let's chat.

Nope. There was indeed a coup attempt and no amount of foolishness from you is going to change that. What's foolish is believing that the "dumb ass redneck hillbillies" were the only ones attempting the coup. A coup doesn't need to be successful to "be a coup", Cranky...don't take my word for it, look it up.

Last time i looked, no "anarchists in Portland" EVER wanted to "create their own sovereign state". Talk about foolish...sounds like the "news" you're reading have a different take, that's not owning the libs, that's owning foolishness.

..

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:12 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:56 am

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 amThe left is doing everything they can to gin up 1/6 for all the political capital they can get. That is why you never let a good crisis go to waste. The Republicans did the same thing with Benghazi. I have no problem with the Democrat party using every thing they can squeeze out of 1/6 for gaining any possible political leverage. My issue is portraying the riot of 1/6 as being an insurrection desiegned to overthrow the government and an election. I understand why the Dems are throwing that out. You throw enough stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. I'm still trying to figure this out. The Dems on this forum remind us every day how stupid right wing Republicans are. Then in the same breath give them credit for being so deviously clever to develope a plan to overthrow a legitimate election. How do stupid people do that? Right wing Republicans are capable of being incredibly dumb and clever all at the same time. That is quite an accomplishment indeed.

Au Contraire, Uncle Cranky. The evidence of a COUP is ALL OVER THE PLACE...smoking guns galore. Stupid is as stupid does, my friend and trying to say they're all just as stupid as all of us accuse them of being...is pretty stupid. To answer your question: "How do stupid people do that?" well, that's pretty obvious...they have a REALLY stupid person as their ideological leader, who then goes out and recruits stupid talking heads who then go out and convince other stupid followers, through the use of extensive lies and disinformation, into believing the stupid stuff they peddle. That's what grifters do. It's all manifestly stupid. And it's driving the ideology of the right these days in a broad swath of ways.

Evidence is ALL AROUND YOU here, my friend, and your insistence on looking the other way, obscuring your vision with the acts of the unwashed masses of stupid that descended on the Capitol that day...doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate the stupid.

There are many places to educate yourself. Take advantage, if you dare.

Trump's Electoral Forgery/Fraud

..

So a few thousand ignorant hillbillies with shotgun racks in their pick up trucks were going to overthrow our election. How were they going to pull this Houdini trick off? Do you even comprehend the stupidity of what you are implying? Maybe those Antifa folks in Portland would actually succeed in creating their own sovereign nation as well? I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble. We live in a country that spends 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year to defend our nation against all enemies.. foreign and domestic. I think there was never a point in time where the US Government was threatened by these clowns. Hey if that fantasy floats your boat, more power to you. You ever figure out who was hiding in the grassy knoll that day in Dallas?

Stop it, cradle.

The coup attempt was real, the violent "hillbillies" were just a small part.

The far more serious part was the attempt to literally ignore the election results, and instead accept the GOP electors sent instead and/or to use that confusion to throw it back to the GOP state legislators or directly to the House...all such resulting in Trump's installment ongoing. That effort involved a heck of a lot of people, elected officials, GOP activists....all the way up through the White House. Tons of evidence has already been revealed, much more to come.

We'll see if the vanguard of the violent part was communicating with the Trumpist "war room" as well (there's evidence of such) and hopefully what their game plan was...personally I think the original intent had been to have a very violent conflict happen with counter protestors (weapons cache) and then martial law to be declared. No counterprotesters, plan shifted to storming the Capitol, pressuring Pence. I hope we find out.

There was no coup attempt. Stop repeating that horsechitt just because you believe it. You make yourself look really foolish. I stand a better chance of paying no taxes this year than these dumb ass redneck hill billies had of overturning an election. You seem to think if you keep repeating the same horsechitt over and over and over and over that people will believe it. I was extremely angry at this assault on our Capital and the people involved. If a couple thousand unarmed hillbilly rednecks could actually organize a coup to overturn a US election then our country has bigger problems than we know. I know a bunch of anarchists in Portland didn't succeed in creating their own sovereign state. When you get back to the real world MD.. let's chat.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:58 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:12 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:56 am

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 amThe left is doing everything they can to gin up 1/6 for all the political capital they can get. That is why you never let a good crisis go to waste. The Republicans did the same thing with Benghazi. I have no problem with the Democrat party using every thing they can squeeze out of 1/6 for gaining any possible political leverage. My issue is portraying the riot of 1/6 as being an insurrection desiegned to overthrow the government and an election. I understand why the Dems are throwing that out. You throw enough stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. I'm still trying to figure this out. The Dems on this forum remind us every day how stupid right wing Republicans are. Then in the same breath give them credit for being so deviously clever to develope a plan to overthrow a legitimate election. How do stupid people do that? Right wing Republicans are capable of being incredibly dumb and clever all at the same time. That is quite an accomplishment indeed.

Au Contraire, Uncle Cranky. The evidence of a COUP is ALL OVER THE PLACE...smoking guns galore. Stupid is as stupid does, my friend and trying to say they're all just as stupid as all of us accuse them of being...is pretty stupid. To answer your question: "How do stupid people do that?" well, that's pretty obvious...they have a REALLY stupid person as their ideological leader, who then goes out and recruits stupid talking heads who then go out and convince other stupid followers, through the use of extensive lies and disinformation, into believing the stupid stuff they peddle. That's what grifters do. It's all manifestly stupid. And it's driving the ideology of the right these days in a broad swath of ways.

Evidence is ALL AROUND YOU here, my friend, and your insistence on looking the other way, obscuring your vision with the acts of the unwashed masses of stupid that descended on the Capitol that day...doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate the stupid.

There are many places to educate yourself. Take advantage, if you dare.

Trump's Electoral Forgery/Fraud

..

So a few thousand ignorant hillbillies with shotgun racks in their pick up trucks were going to overthrow our election. How were they going to pull this Houdini trick off? Do you even comprehend the stupidity of what you are implying? Maybe those Antifa folks in Portland would actually succeed in creating their own sovereign nation as well? I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble. We live in a country that spends 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year to defend our nation against all enemies.. foreign and domestic. I think there was never a point in time where the US Government was threatened by these clowns. Hey if that fantasy floats your boat, more power to you. You ever figure out who was hiding in the grassy knoll that day in Dallas?

Stop it, cradle.

The coup attempt was real, the violent "hillbillies" were just a small part.

The far more serious part was the attempt to literally ignore the election results, and instead accept the GOP electors sent instead and/or to use that confusion to throw it back to the GOP state legislators or directly to the House...all such resulting in Trump's installment ongoing. That effort involved a heck of a lot of people, elected officials, GOP activists....all the way up through the White House. Tons of evidence has already been revealed, much more to come.

We'll see if the vanguard of the violent part was communicating with the Trumpist "war room" as well (there's evidence of such) and hopefully what their game plan was...personally I think the original intent had been to have a very violent conflict happen with counter protestors (weapons cache) and then martial law to be declared. No counterprotesters, plan shifted to storming the Capitol, pressuring Pence. I hope we find out.

There was no coup attempt. Stop repeating that horsechitt just because you believe it. You make yourself look really foolish. I stand a better chance of paying no taxes this year than these dumb ass redneck hill billies had of overturning an election. You seem to think if you keep repeating the same horsechitt over and over and over and over that people will believe it. I was extremely angry at this assault on our Capital and the people involved. If a couple thousand unarmed hillbilly rednecks could actually organize a coup to overturn a US election then our country has bigger problems than we know. I know a bunch of anarchists in Portland didn't succeed in creating their own sovereign state. When you get back to the real world MD.. let's chat.

good lord, are you actually this out of touch with the news, cradle?

It's super clear this was attempted, heck some of them are admitting it...and tons of digital evidence.

Educate yourself.

Again, those in the violent part were mere low level 'brown shirts' in the effort. Not the leaders of the actual coup attempt. Yes, some of those in the organized vanguard of the violent part are guilty of "seditious conspiracy", and they may well have been part of the larger plan, but these a-holes are low on the totem pole.

Was the 1960 Presidential Election Stolen? The Case of Illinois

Edmund F. Kallina
Presidential Studies Quarterly
Vol. 15, No. 1, Inaugurating the President (Winter, 1985), pp. 113-118 (6 pages)
Published By: Wiley
Presidential Studies Quarterly
https://www.jstor.org/stable/27550168

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:08 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:58 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:12 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:56 am

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 amThe left is doing everything they can to gin up 1/6 for all the political capital they can get. That is why you never let a good crisis go to waste. The Republicans did the same thing with Benghazi. I have no problem with the Democrat party using every thing they can squeeze out of 1/6 for gaining any possible political leverage. My issue is portraying the riot of 1/6 as being an insurrection desiegned to overthrow the government and an election. I understand why the Dems are throwing that out. You throw enough stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. I'm still trying to figure this out. The Dems on this forum remind us every day how stupid right wing Republicans are. Then in the same breath give them credit for being so deviously clever to develope a plan to overthrow a legitimate election. How do stupid people do that? Right wing Republicans are capable of being incredibly dumb and clever all at the same time. That is quite an accomplishment indeed.

Au Contraire, Uncle Cranky. The evidence of a COUP is ALL OVER THE PLACE...smoking guns galore. Stupid is as stupid does, my friend and trying to say they're all just as stupid as all of us accuse them of being...is pretty stupid. To answer your question: "How do stupid people do that?" well, that's pretty obvious...they have a REALLY stupid person as their ideological leader, who then goes out and recruits stupid talking heads who then go out and convince other stupid followers, through the use of extensive lies and disinformation, into believing the stupid stuff they peddle. That's what grifters do. It's all manifestly stupid. And it's driving the ideology of the right these days in a broad swath of ways.

Evidence is ALL AROUND YOU here, my friend, and your insistence on looking the other way, obscuring your vision with the acts of the unwashed masses of stupid that descended on the Capitol that day...doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate the stupid.

There are many places to educate yourself. Take advantage, if you dare.

Trump's Electoral Forgery/Fraud

..

So a few thousand ignorant hillbillies with shotgun racks in their pick up trucks were going to overthrow our election. How were they going to pull this Houdini trick off? Do you even comprehend the stupidity of what you are implying? Maybe those Antifa folks in Portland would actually succeed in creating their own sovereign nation as well? I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble. We live in a country that spends 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year to defend our nation against all enemies.. foreign and domestic. I think there was never a point in time where the US Government was threatened by these clowns. Hey if that fantasy floats your boat, more power to you. You ever figure out who was hiding in the grassy knoll that day in Dallas?

Stop it, cradle.

The coup attempt was real, the violent "hillbillies" were just a small part.

The far more serious part was the attempt to literally ignore the election results, and instead accept the GOP electors sent instead and/or to use that confusion to throw it back to the GOP state legislators or directly to the House...all such resulting in Trump's installment ongoing. That effort involved a heck of a lot of people, elected officials, GOP activists....all the way up through the White House. Tons of evidence has already been revealed, much more to come.

We'll see if the vanguard of the violent part was communicating with the Trumpist "war room" as well (there's evidence of such) and hopefully what their game plan was...personally I think the original intent had been to have a very violent conflict happen with counter protestors (weapons cache) and then martial law to be declared. No counterprotesters, plan shifted to storming the Capitol, pressuring Pence. I hope we find out.

There was no coup attempt. Stop repeating that horsechitt just because you believe it. You make yourself look really foolish. I stand a better chance of paying no taxes this year than these dumb ass redneck hill billies had of overturning an election. You seem to think if you keep repeating the same horsechitt over and over and over and over that people will believe it. I was extremely angry at this assault on our Capital and the people involved. If a couple thousand unarmed hillbilly rednecks could actually organize a coup to overturn a US election then our country has bigger problems than we know. I know a bunch of anarchists in Portland didn't succeed in creating their own sovereign state. When you get back to the real world MD.. let's chat.

good lord, are you actually this out of touch with the news, cradle?

It's super clear this was attempted, heck some of them are admitting it...and tons of digital evidence.

Educate yourself.

Again, those in the violent part were mere low level 'brown shirts' in the effort. Not the leaders of the actual coup attempt. Yes, some of those in the organized vanguard of the violent part are guilty of "seditious conspiracy", and they may well have been part of the larger plan, but these a-holes are low on the totem pole.

I don't need an education from a FLP liberal republican. Go take your lie someplace else. If you believe it then more power to you. There is no mother effing way in hell what you claim to be a coup was anything more than a bunch of dumbass redneck hillbillies venting their anger. Even the Trumpist republicans when you cut to the chase knew where the theatrics ended and the destruction of a functional government began. You want to insist on calling it an attempted coup. You can keep making a fool of yourself. Why stop now? Mike Pence, who was mocked and ridiculed on this forum by every FLP democrat did what he was charged to do. End of coup, all them rednecks can go home and have a few beers.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:17 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:08 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:58 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:12 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:56 am

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 amThe left is doing everything they can to gin up 1/6 for all the political capital they can get. That is why you never let a good crisis go to waste. The Republicans did the same thing with Benghazi. I have no problem with the Democrat party using every thing they can squeeze out of 1/6 for gaining any possible political leverage. My issue is portraying the riot of 1/6 as being an insurrection desiegned to overthrow the government and an election. I understand why the Dems are throwing that out. You throw enough stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. I'm still trying to figure this out. The Dems on this forum remind us every day how stupid right wing Republicans are. Then in the same breath give them credit for being so deviously clever to develope a plan to overthrow a legitimate election. How do stupid people do that? Right wing Republicans are capable of being incredibly dumb and clever all at the same time. That is quite an accomplishment indeed.

Au Contraire, Uncle Cranky. The evidence of a COUP is ALL OVER THE PLACE...smoking guns galore. Stupid is as stupid does, my friend and trying to say they're all just as stupid as all of us accuse them of being...is pretty stupid. To answer your question: "How do stupid people do that?" well, that's pretty obvious...they have a REALLY stupid person as their ideological leader, who then goes out and recruits stupid talking heads who then go out and convince other stupid followers, through the use of extensive lies and disinformation, into believing the stupid stuff they peddle. That's what grifters do. It's all manifestly stupid. And it's driving the ideology of the right these days in a broad swath of ways.

Evidence is ALL AROUND YOU here, my friend, and your insistence on looking the other way, obscuring your vision with the acts of the unwashed masses of stupid that descended on the Capitol that day...doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate the stupid.

There are many places to educate yourself. Take advantage, if you dare.

Trump's Electoral Forgery/Fraud

..

So a few thousand ignorant hillbillies with shotgun racks in their pick up trucks were going to overthrow our election. How were they going to pull this Houdini trick off? Do you even comprehend the stupidity of what you are implying? Maybe those Antifa folks in Portland would actually succeed in creating their own sovereign nation as well? I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble. We live in a country that spends 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year to defend our nation against all enemies.. foreign and domestic. I think there was never a point in time where the US Government was threatened by these clowns. Hey if that fantasy floats your boat, more power to you. You ever figure out who was hiding in the grassy knoll that day in Dallas?

Stop it, cradle.

The coup attempt was real, the violent "hillbillies" were just a small part.

The far more serious part was the attempt to literally ignore the election results, and instead accept the GOP electors sent instead and/or to use that confusion to throw it back to the GOP state legislators or directly to the House...all such resulting in Trump's installment ongoing. That effort involved a heck of a lot of people, elected officials, GOP activists....all the way up through the White House. Tons of evidence has already been revealed, much more to come.

We'll see if the vanguard of the violent part was communicating with the Trumpist "war room" as well (there's evidence of such) and hopefully what their game plan was...personally I think the original intent had been to have a very violent conflict happen with counter protestors (weapons cache) and then martial law to be declared. No counterprotesters, plan shifted to storming the Capitol, pressuring Pence. I hope we find out.

There was no coup attempt. Stop repeating that horsechitt just because you believe it. You make yourself look really foolish. I stand a better chance of paying no taxes this year than these dumb ass redneck hill billies had of overturning an election. You seem to think if you keep repeating the same horsechitt over and over and over and over that people will believe it. I was extremely angry at this assault on our Capital and the people involved. If a couple thousand unarmed hillbilly rednecks could actually organize a coup to overturn a US election then our country has bigger problems than we know. I know a bunch of anarchists in Portland didn't succeed in creating their own sovereign state. When you get back to the real world MD.. let's chat.

good lord, are you actually this out of touch with the news, cradle?

It's super clear this was attempted, heck some of them are admitting it...and tons of digital evidence.

Educate yourself.

Again, those in the violent part were mere low level 'brown shirts' in the effort. Not the leaders of the actual coup attempt. Yes, some of those in the organized vanguard of the violent part are guilty of "seditious conspiracy", and they may well have been part of the larger plan, but these a-holes are low on the totem pole.

I don't need an education from a FLP liberal republican. Go take your lie someplace else. If you believe it then more power to you. There is no mother effing way in hell what you claim to be a coup was anything more than a bunch of dumbass redneck hillbillies venting their anger. Even the Trumpist republicans when you cut to the chase knew where the theatrics ended and the destruction of a functional government began. You want to insist on calling it an attempted coup. You can keep making a fool of yourself. Why stop now? Mike Pence, who was mocked and ridiculed on this forum by every FLP democrat did what he was charged to do. End of coup, all them rednecks can go home and have a few beers.

Stop it. Do some homework on the actual coup attempt.
Ignore the violent part.

You needn't listen to me...do some reading.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:17 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:08 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:58 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:12 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:56 am

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:10 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:40 amThe left is doing everything they can to gin up 1/6 for all the political capital they can get. That is why you never let a good crisis go to waste. The Republicans did the same thing with Benghazi. I have no problem with the Democrat party using every thing they can squeeze out of 1/6 for gaining any possible political leverage. My issue is portraying the riot of 1/6 as being an insurrection desiegned to overthrow the government and an election. I understand why the Dems are throwing that out. You throw enough stuff at the wall hoping something will stick. I'm still trying to figure this out. The Dems on this forum remind us every day how stupid right wing Republicans are. Then in the same breath give them credit for being so deviously clever to develope a plan to overthrow a legitimate election. How do stupid people do that? Right wing Republicans are capable of being incredibly dumb and clever all at the same time. That is quite an accomplishment indeed.

Au Contraire, Uncle Cranky. The evidence of a COUP is ALL OVER THE PLACE...smoking guns galore. Stupid is as stupid does, my friend and trying to say they're all just as stupid as all of us accuse them of being...is pretty stupid. To answer your question: "How do stupid people do that?" well, that's pretty obvious...they have a REALLY stupid person as their ideological leader, who then goes out and recruits stupid talking heads who then go out and convince other stupid followers, through the use of extensive lies and disinformation, into believing the stupid stuff they peddle. That's what grifters do. It's all manifestly stupid. And it's driving the ideology of the right these days in a broad swath of ways.

Evidence is ALL AROUND YOU here, my friend, and your insistence on looking the other way, obscuring your vision with the acts of the unwashed masses of stupid that descended on the Capitol that day...doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate the stupid.

There are many places to educate yourself. Take advantage, if you dare.

Trump's Electoral Forgery/Fraud

..

So a few thousand ignorant hillbillies with shotgun racks in their pick up trucks were going to overthrow our election. How were they going to pull this Houdini trick off? Do you even comprehend the stupidity of what you are implying? Maybe those Antifa folks in Portland would actually succeed in creating their own sovereign nation as well? I don't want to be the one to burst your bubble. We live in a country that spends 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year to defend our nation against all enemies.. foreign and domestic. I think there was never a point in time where the US Government was threatened by these clowns. Hey if that fantasy floats your boat, more power to you. You ever figure out who was hiding in the grassy knoll that day in Dallas?

Stop it, cradle.

The coup attempt was real, the violent "hillbillies" were just a small part.

The far more serious part was the attempt to literally ignore the election results, and instead accept the GOP electors sent instead and/or to use that confusion to throw it back to the GOP state legislators or directly to the House...all such resulting in Trump's installment ongoing. That effort involved a heck of a lot of people, elected officials, GOP activists....all the way up through the White House. Tons of evidence has already been revealed, much more to come.

We'll see if the vanguard of the violent part was communicating with the Trumpist "war room" as well (there's evidence of such) and hopefully what their game plan was...personally I think the original intent had been to have a very violent conflict happen with counter protestors (weapons cache) and then martial law to be declared. No counterprotesters, plan shifted to storming the Capitol, pressuring Pence. I hope we find out.

There was no coup attempt. Stop repeating that horsechitt just because you believe it. You make yourself look really foolish. I stand a better chance of paying no taxes this year than these dumb ass redneck hill billies had of overturning an election. You seem to think if you keep repeating the same horsechitt over and over and over and over that people will believe it. I was extremely angry at this assault on our Capital and the people involved. If a couple thousand unarmed hillbilly rednecks could actually organize a coup to overturn a US election then our country has bigger problems than we know. I know a bunch of anarchists in Portland didn't succeed in creating their own sovereign state. When you get back to the real world MD.. let's chat.

good lord, are you actually this out of touch with the news, cradle?

It's super clear this was attempted, heck some of them are admitting it...and tons of digital evidence.

Educate yourself.

Again, those in the violent part were mere low level 'brown shirts' in the effort. Not the leaders of the actual coup attempt. Yes, some of those in the organized vanguard of the violent part are guilty of "seditious conspiracy", and they may well have been part of the larger plan, but these a-holes are low on the totem pole.

I don't need an education from a FLP liberal republican. Go take your lie someplace else. If you believe it then more power to you. There is no mother effing way in hell what you claim to be a coup was anything more than a bunch of dumbass redneck hillbillies venting their anger. Even the Trumpist republicans when you cut to the chase knew where the theatrics ended and the destruction of a functional government began. You want to insist on calling it an attempted coup. You can keep making a fool of yourself. Why stop now? Mike Pence, who was mocked and ridiculed on this forum by every FLP democrat did what he was charged to do. End of coup, all them rednecks can go home and have a few beers.

Stop it. Do some homework on the actual coup attempt.
Ignore the violent part.

You needn't listen to me...do some reading.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:39 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:43 pm

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:33 pm The dissembling here is amazing. The need for the action at the Capitol was to delay the certification of the electoral college to give time to persuade Pence and others to steal the election by overturning legitimate votes.

The real sedition was the attempt to overturn the election of Biden and Harris. Nothing legal about it. And that is even more important to prosecute.

+1

After months of taking exception to our pointing out that there was a disproportionate # of military vets and current or ex law enforcement personnel in the vanguard of the action, pooh poohing that there was any organization, Salty now wants to label these a-holes as just incompetents...and focus our attention on why the Capitol Police didn't open fire on the crowd, them darn incompetents defending the Capitol...all really to just draw attention from the BIG Crime, the actual effort to overthrow the election..

We were one man away from a Constitutional crisis. And before Pence's ultimate call to separate from that effort, teetering as he was, there were a series of other honest GOP officials who pushed back, any one or two of which going the other way might well have given Pence sufficient pretext to tilt the other way. Competing elector slates...throw it back to the State Legislatures...or better yet, directly to the House...Trump remains POTUS.

We were, really, really close.

But hey, "squirrel"...

...just imagine how anti-climactic & boring it will be if none of your sky-is-falling predictions come about.

There was an organization. A bunch of disgruntled incompetent losers who had no chance of success.

dislaxxic wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:07 pm Correct, Kismet...this is what a large portion of our country has become. They "own" the libs (in their own minds) by sticking doggedly to the counterfactual in all things politics and especially all things trumpist politics. It's what brings guys like this to their conclusions about everything in life, from what Antifa is, to what issues are there for the BLM movement, to what "liberals" and "conservatives" are and what they believe all along the broad arc of differences within just one of those ideologies. The more homogeneous these issues are, the better for those that don't so nuance very well, if at all. Now i've gone and done it...ridiculed someone else's opinions as false and foolhardy...when - gosh - they CAN have their opinions, right? It's when these types try to justify voting for these sorts of beliefs that the mechanisms of a democracy, our democracy, start to veer off the rails...and boy howdy, have we ever veered off the rails, right?

..

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:38 am Kismet, that's probably right.

ahh well.

Navarro admits the plot in his book.

Here's the interview with Peter Navarro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPDSWK8d_tI

cradle should watch it.

Here's a discussion the next night: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB8wwHJ4LFs