Johns Hopkins 2021

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veryoldgoose
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by veryoldgoose »

Chitown wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:43 pm Size of Lacrosse Squad?

Out of curiosity, I counted the number of players on my JHU Team my senior year:--- 34 Players and we were National Champions. Approx. the same numbers on my Sophomore and Junior year Teams. Of course there was a Freshmen Team, but only 8-10 of those players would be expected to make the Varsity the next year. That was plenty of players to practice and improve.

Why have squads become so huge? How can they effectively practice everyday? Why would you want to stand around at practice if you are in the 40-60 range group? That can't be fun. That can't be a learning process.

What is the answer?
This one is really easy - for 2 reasons -

1. Injuries

2. Scout teams

I will let point 1 speak for itself. But for point 2, think about it this way - if you have say 4-5 attackmen (starters and immediate backups who play) and 2 lines of offensive middies (lets say 6), that is 10-12 players (and likely more if you have a third line and some man up personnel, etc). So probably 12-15 players on offense that play on a regular basis. Now take the defense: you have the starting goalie, frequently the immediate backup (so 2), plus 3 starting defensemen (and usually an additional 2-3 who rotate in, sometimes for man-down d), plus 2-3 SSDMs, and then 2 LSMs, you have about 12-14 defensive guys who play on a regular basis. In total, that is probably 25, but closer to 30 players that are preparing to play on a regular basis.

Now, when preparing for games, coaches now use scout teams (frequently the backups who aren't getting PT) instead of other starters. When I see practices at d1 and high end d3 schools, you have the starters on D getting ready against an O scout team and vice versa. So now you need enough scout team players - 3 attackmen, 3 middies, 1 pole, a few SSDMs (frequently freshman middies), a LSM, and then the third/fourth string goalies. That alone is 14-15 players. Add those to the game time team, and already you are at 45 guys. Now add a few FOGOs and all of the sudden we are at 50 guys.

So that is why rosters are frequently 50 guys minimum. The math adds up.

Edit: and you also have to consider the development side. Even taking my 50 players above, there are only 14-15 developmental guys (lets say for argument freshmen and some sophomores). This is frequently not enough if there is an injury bug and I have seen it firsthand. For example - you have a roster with 7 attackmen (3 starters, 4 backups/development guys). 2 starters get injured, but a few of the backups are injured as well. All of a sudden, you only have 3 attackmen that are healthy, but it may be 1 starter and the bottom 2 guys on the depth chart. I see this reason as THE reason rosters have expanded past 50. In my opinion, a roster of 50-52 guys covers all positions well enough to have clearly defined starters, backups who will be starters (or otherwise integral guys), and then development players and be safe from injuries. But even at a 60 person roster, rarely are you going to have all 60 healthy. From my discussions with coaches, they always use a rule of thumb that 5-10 players may be out on any given day due to injuries.
pcowlax
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by pcowlax »

1. Injuries

2. Scout teams

3. $$$$$

In light of COVID, there has been lots of discussion about schools adding or, now a days, wanting to retain lax teams because players in lax programs are, in the main, more likely to be paying full tuition than the average student body member. This reasoning can be scaled up to roster size. The more players, the more tuition rolling in as players 45-60 on the roster are not getting any scholarship money. Obviously this is less of a consideration at JHU than at some other schools who are desperate to fill classes but still plays a role. It is no skin off the coach if player 58 isn't getting any PT. One hopes that coaches are honest during recruiting in letting kids know the reality of their likely role but, well.... :roll:
jhu06
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by jhu06 »

51percentcorn wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:50 pm '06 you are confusing UMass (which is in Amherst) with Amherst College - Marcus Camby did not attend Amherst I can assure you.
I was joking. Ephs is the mascot of williams I thought that would give it away. Loved those umass teams, I miss college hoops when casual fans still knew who was on each team because the best players didn't go pro after 1 season. If the last 10 spots are scout team might as well give them to kids who get in on merit and find some walkons. That's a lot of preferred admissions spots to waste on kids who don't add anything.
51percentcorn
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by 51percentcorn »

The magic number of kids that plays in a competitive game is almost always 23-24. Trot out a 3rd face-off guy or an attackman gets a personal foul maybe 25.
Just break it down by position - in this day and age you likely NEED the following:
- 3 goalies
- 3 F/O
- 7 attack - probaby could get away with 6 and have one of your 3rd/4th line mids play scout if there's an injury but let's go with 7
- 3 LSMs
- 4 SSDMs
- 7 close defense - some can get runs in practice at scout LSMs
That's 27
Now add 12 middies - way more than you really need - and there you have 39

And what would be better for recruiting - dividing 12.6 by 39 or 60?

The answer to chitown's questions IMO are:
Why have rosters become so huge? The bottleneck at the DI level compared to the relatively exponential growth at the high school level. More kids available to want the DI experience. Lacrosse also being still connected to affluency - still several parents out there with the good fortune that can stroke the checks required to put Johhny in school and on a team and maybe don't count much or at all against the 12.6.

effective practices? Again IMO this has to be a significant adverse effect of the larger rosters. You HAVE to give the 30-35 kids that are not going to play on Saturday some semblance of involvement in practice and as a coach you have to expend energy towards that many players. While you can debate the extent of the effect there is no way you can say a practice of 60 players is better use of time vs. a practice of 40 players.

Why would you put up with it as a reserve player? Has to be hard - many probably like the experience and get worthwhile things out of it - but has to be hard.
flalax22
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by flalax22 »

Did we get Teat yet?
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HopFan16
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by HopFan16 »

flalax22 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:50 pm Did we get Teat yet?
The guy who tweeted that has since completely deleted his account, so it's looking good!
houndace1
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by houndace1 »

HopFan16 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:54 pm
flalax22 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:50 pm Did we get Teat yet?
The guy who tweeted that has since completely deleted his account, so it's looking good!
its funny cus I Dm'ed the person, got subsequently blocked, but had no clue he deleted the account
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DocBarrister
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by DocBarrister »

HopFan16 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:54 pm
flalax22 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:50 pm Did we get Teat yet?
The guy who tweeted that has since completely deleted his account, so it's looking good!
Are we at least getting SimTeat? Are ya tellin’ me Milliman can’t even pull that off?!?

DocBarrister :?
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NOVALax2015
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by NOVALax2015 »

I tend to think it's more likely due to the exponential growth of the HS game. This is all about risk management as it is very difficult to tell which kids will really pan out. Back in the 70's, Hopkins would've had a tough time finding a 40th kid for the roster who they thought had any chance of contributing. These days, the 12th kid recruited in a class might end up being the 3rd or 4th best. It is just so much tougher to evaluate talent given all the talent available and all the kids playing (and the fact that they now play all over the US and Canada).
wgdsr
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by wgdsr »

houndace1 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:08 pm
HopFan16 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:54 pm
flalax22 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:50 pm Did we get Teat yet?
The guy who tweeted that has since completely deleted his account, so it's looking good!
its funny cus I Dm'ed the person, got subsequently blocked, but had no clue he deleted the account
jiminy christmas
we can't even count on scoop millie labrador twitter now? What the heck is going on in this country?
Sagittarius A*
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by Sagittarius A* »

The last I checked, pipe shots are not goals.

Has anyone seen Tyler Dunn play in HS. Is he a legit face-off prospect?
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HopFan16
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by HopFan16 »

Sagittarius A* wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:37 pm The last I checked, pipe shots are not goals.

Has anyone seen Tyler Dunn play in HS. Is he a legit face-off prospect?
Yes and yes. Went 15/19 in the MIAA semi-finals and finals last year against other D1 commits, finished the season well over 60% in arguably the toughest high school conference in the country for arguably the best team in the country. Quick hands and can be a threat in transition.

With Prouty and Narewski there I'm not sure how much PT he gets as a freshman but I expect him to make an impact at some point.

That said, with the new faceoff rules—assuming they ultimately get implemented—I'm not really sure how that's going to affect things. Kind of throws a wrench into the whole faceoff game. New guys will emerge, while others whom we thought were good might find themselves falling out of the mix. For all anyone knows Heverly could be a master at the standing neutral grip.

With the '21 FOGO decommit I wonder if they even need to replace him in that class. There will already be 5 on the roster next year (if none get cut), which means it wouldn't be the end of the world if they skipped a recruiting year at the position then started restocking again with the '22s.
Sagittarius A*
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by Sagittarius A* »

HopFan16 wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:00 pm
That said, with the new faceoff rules—assuming they ultimately get implemented—I'm not really sure how that's going to affect things. Kind of throws a wrench into the whole faceoff game. New guys will emerge, while others whom we thought were good might find themselves falling out of the mix. For all anyone knows Heverly could be a master at the standing neutral grip.
Didn't Koesterer play with the underhand grip? I can't remember when the moto grip became popular, but I'm sure it was sometime after 2010.
Hand speed, timing, quickness and hand/arm strength will still be important.
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CU77
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by CU77 »

DocBarrister wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:09 pm
HopFan16 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:54 pm
flalax22 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:50 pm Did we get Teat yet?
The guy who tweeted that has since completely deleted his account, so it's looking good!
Are we at least getting SimTeat? Are ya tellin’ me Milliman can’t even pull that off?!?

DocBarrister :?
SimTeat will lead SimHop to victory, just as he did SimBigRed!

You read it here first.
WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus »

CU77 wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:20 am
DocBarrister wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:09 pm
HopFan16 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:54 pm
flalax22 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:50 pm Did we get Teat yet?
The guy who tweeted that has since completely deleted his account, so it's looking good!
Are we at least getting SimTeat? Are ya tellin’ me Milliman can’t even pull that off?!?

DocBarrister :?
SimTeat will lead SimHop to victory, just as he did SimBigRed!

You read it here first.
We’re SimScrewed.
kramerica.inc
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by kramerica.inc »

Sagittarius A* wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:27 pm
HopFan16 wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:00 pm
That said, with the new faceoff rules—assuming they ultimately get implemented—I'm not really sure how that's going to affect things. Kind of throws a wrench into the whole faceoff game. New guys will emerge, while others whom we thought were good might find themselves falling out of the mix. For all anyone knows Heverly could be a master at the standing neutral grip.
Didn't Koesterer play with the underhand grip? I can't remember when the moto grip became popular, but I'm sure it was sometime after 2010.
Hand speed, timing, quickness and hand/arm strength will still be important.
Got popular around 2K, Paul Cantabene was the first to do it. NCAA was mostly Moto by 2008
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HopFan16
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by HopFan16 »

Jamison took many, many faceoffs in the standing position with a neutral grip.

Here is one against Duke in the '05 title game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z1VNoQ716M&t=46m39s

(Fun fact: That faceoff was against Brad Ross, who he'd later coach with at Ohio State.)

Here's another against Delaware in the '07 semifinals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV_tMk7l4Ic&t=31m58s

Koesterer was about 56% at the dot in his career. Didn't play a whole lot as a freshman or sophomore, but then took more than 100 faceoffs in both his junior and senior years. In 2007, he went 25/38 in the NCAA tournament including 8/12 against Duke.

Doesn't necessarily mean it'll be an advantage for us to have a coach highly experienced with the faceoff rules—but it probably won't hurt.
Sagittarius A*
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by Sagittarius A* »

HopFan16 wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:39 am Doesn't necessarily mean it'll be an advantage for us to have a coach highly experienced with the faceoff rules—but it probably won't hurt.
I'm thinking this could be significant for us next year. It's a decided advantage to have a coach that's familiar with the old ways, given that everyone seems to have gone in whole hog on the moto grip. Our face-offs were at ~ 58% last year (#17) so it's easy to envision them over 60% next year. I'm thinking our guys will have an easier time making the transition working with JAMO everyday than other programs. This could end up being a big advantage for us especially if the offense kicks into high gear. With a healthy Epstein setting the table and Grimes sniping from the wing, things could get interesting.

It's hard to keep pace with a team that wins >60% at the X and that can score efficiently. Even some high powered offenses will take a hit if they can't get the ball.
nyjay
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by nyjay »

No idea how this is going to play out, but having JK and Fernandez has to be an enormous benefit given the increased importance of wing play with the new rules. I also tend to think the type of f/o guy we have helps - both Prouty and Newreski are the more athletic type rather than the real bruisers. Would think that will be of benefit. New rules wouldn't have been great for the Hunter Morelands of the world. We just need one more wing guy (how good was Hawley? - don't think he was terrible, but can't say he really stuck out to me).
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HopFan16
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2021

Post by HopFan16 »

nyjay wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:21 pm No idea how this is going to play out, but having JK and Fernandez has to be an enormous benefit given the increased importance of wing play with the new rules. I also tend to think the type of f/o guy we have helps - both Prouty and Newreski are the more athletic type rather than the real bruisers. Would think that will be of benefit. New rules wouldn't have been great for the Hunter Morelands of the world. We just need one more wing guy (how good was Hawley? - don't think he was terrible, but can't say he really stuck out to me).
It was a small sample size and the bar is pretty low but statistically speaking Hawley was on his way to having the best season off the wing for any short stick since Tinney. 11 GBs through 4 games—that’s the equivalent of 41 over a 15-game season. And he came to Homewood as an attackman...theoretically there is an untapped higher potential ceiling as a wing/transition middie with more development.

Cody Ince might also help out on the wing. He’s not big and still kind of raw but he’s lightning fast and smooth off the ground. His 2019 McDonogh highlights are on YouTube.
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