JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[tech37]

Baghdadi Bob bagged :
https://www.thehindu.com/news/internati ... 811552.ece

Damn, it just keeps getting better.

With the collateral intel the good guys now have after this raid, who knows where this will lead...

That’s a good publication. I read it frequently.

It's probably more trustworthy than either WaPo or NYT

[MDlaxfan76]

You've previously made it sound as if you were supporting Trump's decision...

No I did not. You interpret any discussion of an issue which does not include a harsh critique of Trump as support.

...withdrawing air support... Would that have meant 'fighting' the Turks? Well, yes, if they were firing on us or those we were protecting, darn tootin...and Trump should have made clear that would be result of our taking fire. We certainly have those capabilities.

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of the tactical situation that departs from rationality.

So...what did Trump actually say to Erdogan?
My hunch is that perhaps he hemmed and hawed and choked and sputtered and then said, "well, if that's what you're going to do, we'll get out of the way." And then said to those who had been listening, 'well, time to get out anyway, right boys? I said, right boys?"

I'll rely on the public statements of the members of the chain of command who were privy to the call, rather than your hunch.
You seem to be unable to understand the reality that we had agreed with the Turks, months in advance, to not militarily oppose an incursion into Syria, so long as US troops were not endangered.

Your arrogance continues unabated, Salty.

I appreciate your sharing with us various 'tactical' detail that you feel is relevant to the discussions. Truly do.

But you have big blinders on.

Blinders ? You have a bucket over your head if you think the use of US air power against NATO ally Turkey in this scenario was a viable option.
...& Erdogan knew that.

That was the only option at that point?

And are you really saying that had the Turks been shelling our guys on the ground, air power response wasn't a "viable option"?

Serious question.

There would have been significant casualties on both sides, but the Turks would have continued.
Do you think we'd escalate with 5000 personnel. several special & tactical aircraft & 50 nucs held hostage at Incirlik ?
The US Chain of Command was not so stupid enough as to allow such a dilemma to arise.
Had they been ordered to do so -- then you might have seen some resignation letters.
Serious answer.

Thanks for the serious answer.

However, that where I think you may have some big "blinders".
Seems to me that there's no way Turkey would have risked the kind of devastation we'd have brought down on them.
At a minimum, we could have backed them off long enough to have given all around fair warning, from the Kurds to our European allies to our own forces on the ground to, obtw, Congress.

That's why I say, let's see the transcript.

The problem is that with Trump he's totally lost the benefit of the doubt, and, extremely unfortunately, that has extended into his subordinates.

Just way too many proven situations in which Trump has baldfaced lied and/or egregiously misrepresented then demanded his subordinates provide cover for that. And, instead of resigning, we have way too many cases where they did exactly that, holding onto their position (I'll give most the benefit of the doubt that they think they can do more good in the job than by resigning). So, guys like Milley and Esper get swept up in those doubts. It's very, very unfortunate, but it's where this President has taken us.

[old salt]

Seems to me that there's no way Turkey would have risked the kind of devastation we'd have brought down on them.
At a minimum, we could have backed them off long enough to have given all around fair warning, from the Kurds to our European allies to our own forces on the ground to, obtw, Congress.

You overestimate the restraint of the Turks & their proxy forces.
The Turks shot down a Russia fighter. That was an even more dangerous move.

The most likely forces the US would have been in contact with would have been Turkey's proxy Syrian Arab militias, including some extremists like the ones videoed committing war crimes. Do you think they'd exercise restraint if they had the chance to overrun an outpost manned by 12 Americans infidels ? There was no way to reliably anticipate how that situation would have devolved. Not worth the risk.
There's no way a responsible commander would put his troops in that position (tethered goats was a serious analogy).
Force Protection is always Mission #1.

[seacoaster]

^^^ that's when the ranking (D) on the HPSIC was a former Terp & Mt Wash Dman who did not leak like a sieve & play to the cameras.

Get over it. Stop being hysterical.

Nothing to get over. I'm enjoying this news cycle immensely. Have a nice day. ..

This is spoiling seacoaster's impeachment-palooza

Hah! I doubt it. Let’s see what this week brings.

[Trinity]

Every Trump speech begins with: “I’d like to thank Russia, ....”

[6ftstick]

How the Washington Post reported the death of ISIS terror leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

The headline — before a red-faced Washington Post removed it — read:

“Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, austere religious scholar at helm of Islamic State, dies at 48.”

[6ftstick]

Begrudgingly covered by the lefts megaphones in the MSM.

Nothing from Democrats

You are so blinded by hate that you don't even try to listen or read. HIP HIP HOORAY.Go ahead. Make it up like your boy DONNY DOUCHEBAG.

Yeh that DOUCHEBAG changed the rules of engagement and quietly—off the front pages—wiped out the ISIS caliphate, Stopped CRICIFIXIONS, BEHEADINGS and countless other 6th century barbarism and now has eliminated the founding father bastid. What a douchebag!

[jhu72]

Begrudgingly covered by the lefts megaphones in the MSM.

Nothing from Democrats

You are so blinded by hate that you don't even try to listen or read. HIP HIP HOORAY.Go ahead. Make it up like your boy DONNY DOUCHEBAG.

Yeh that DOUCHEBAG changed the rules of engagement and quietly—off the front pages—wiped out the ISIS caliphate, Stopped CRICIFIXIONS, BEHEADINGS and countless other 6th century barbarism and now has eliminated the founding father bastid. What a douchebag!

What is a CRICIFIXION. Is that another ethnic group in the ME??

[6ftstick]

Begrudgingly covered by the lefts megaphones in the MSM.

Nothing from Democrats

You are so blinded by hate that you don't even try to listen or read. HIP HIP HOORAY.Go ahead. Make it up like your boy DONNY DOUCHEBAG.

Yeh that DOUCHEBAG changed the rules of engagement and quietly—off the front pages—wiped out the ISIS caliphate, Stopped CRICIFIXIONS, BEHEADINGS and countless other 6th century barbarism and now has eliminated the founding father bastid. What a douchebag!

What is a CRICIFIXION. Is that another ethnic group in the ME??

Thats all you got—spelling?

[ABV 8.3%]

Begrudgingly covered by the lefts megaphones in the MSM.

Nothing from Democrats

You are so blinded by hate that you don't even try to listen or read. HIP HIP HOORAY.Go ahead. Make it up like your boy DONNY DOUCHEBAG.

Yeh that DOUCHEBAG changed the rules of engagement and quietly—off the front pages—wiped out the ISIS caliphate, Stopped CRICIFIXIONS, BEHEADINGS and countless other 6th century barbarism and now has eliminated the founding father bastid. What a douchebag!

What is a CRICIFIXION. Is that another ethnic group in the ME??

Thats all you got—spelling?

Lots of it...then nothing......

[6ftstick]

I typed in "Crucifixion" in my search bar and this was the first in line

Shop Crucifixion on Amazon - Low Prices for Crucifixion

I was looking for the official definition for jhu72 since he's an atheist intellectual and wouldn't know what it was even if I spelled it correctly

[jhu72]

Begrudgingly covered by the lefts megaphones in the MSM.

Nothing from Democrats

You are so blinded by hate that you don't even try to listen or read. HIP HIP HOORAY.Go ahead. Make it up like your boy DONNY DOUCHEBAG.

Yeh that DOUCHEBAG changed the rules of engagement and quietly—off the front pages—wiped out the ISIS caliphate, Stopped CRICIFIXIONS, BEHEADINGS and countless other 6th century barbarism and now has eliminated the founding father bastid. What a douchebag!

What is a CRICIFIXION. Is that another ethnic group in the ME??

Thats all you got—spelling?

No sense of humor I guess.

[6ftstick]

Begrudgingly covered by the lefts megaphones in the MSM.

Nothing from Democrats

You are so blinded by hate that you don't even try to listen or read. HIP HIP HOORAY.Go ahead. Make it up like your boy DONNY DOUCHEBAG.

Yeh that DOUCHEBAG changed the rules of engagement and quietly—off the front pages—wiped out the ISIS caliphate, Stopped CRICIFIXIONS, BEHEADINGS and countless other 6th century barbarism and now has eliminated the founding father bastid. What a douchebag!

What is a CRICIFIXION. Is that another ethnic group in the ME??

Thats all you got—spelling?

No sense of humor I guess.

See above

[MDlaxfan76]

Seems to me that there's no way Turkey would have risked the kind of devastation we'd have brought down on them.
At a minimum, we could have backed them off long enough to have given all around fair warning, from the Kurds to our European allies to our own forces on the ground to, obtw, Congress.

You overestimate the restraint of the Turks & their proxy forces.
The Turks shot down a Russia fighter. That was an even more dangerous move.

The most likely forces the US would have been in contact with would have been Turkey's proxy Syrian Arab militias, including some extremists like the ones videoed committing war crimes. Do you think they'd exercise restraint if they had the chance to overrun an outpost manned by 12 Americans infidels ? There was no way to reliably anticipate how that situation would have devolved. Not worth the risk.
There's no way a responsible commander would put his troops in that position (tethered goats was a serious analogy).
Force Protection is always Mission #1.

So, reinforce those troops. If they really were so out manned, outgunned, that they couldn't repel and destroy the Syrian militias, who made that call?

If we really thought the Turks and the proxy militia were gonna roll, we should have made clear that would be met with an overwhelming force response. And moved the assets to ready posture.

Force protection doesn't mean cut and run, abandon allies in the field.

[6ftstick]

Seems to me that there's no way Turkey would have risked the kind of devastation we'd have brought down on them.
At a minimum, we could have backed them off long enough to have given all around fair warning, from the Kurds to our European allies to our own forces on the ground to, obtw, Congress.

You overestimate the restraint of the Turks & their proxy forces.
The Turks shot down a Russia fighter. That was an even more dangerous move.

The most likely forces the US would have been in contact with would have been Turkey's proxy Syrian Arab militias, including some extremists like the ones videoed committing war crimes. Do you think they'd exercise restraint if they had the chance to overrun an outpost manned by 12 Americans infidels ? There was no way to reliably anticipate how that situation would have devolved. Not worth the risk.
There's no way a responsible commander would put his troops in that position (tethered goats was a serious analogy).
Force Protection is always Mission #1.

So, reinforce those troops. If they really were so out manned, outgunned, that they couldn't repel and destroy the Syrian militias, who made that call?

If we really thought the Turks and the proxy militia were gonna roll, we should have made clear that would be met with an overwhelming force response. And moved the assets to ready posture.

Force protection doesn't mean cut and run, abandon allies in the field.

Then have your DEMOCRAT house of reps vote to create a declaration to that effect. Put some skin in the game.

[MDlaxfan76]

Seems to me that there's no way Turkey would have risked the kind of devastation we'd have brought down on them.
At a minimum, we could have backed them off long enough to have given all around fair warning, from the Kurds to our European allies to our own forces on the ground to, obtw, Congress.

You overestimate the restraint of the Turks & their proxy forces.
The Turks shot down a Russia fighter. That was an even more dangerous move.

The most likely forces the US would have been in contact with would have been Turkey's proxy Syrian Arab militias, including some extremists like the ones videoed committing war crimes. Do you think they'd exercise restraint if they had the chance to overrun an outpost manned by 12 Americans infidels ? There was no way to reliably anticipate how that situation would have devolved. Not worth the risk.
There's no way a responsible commander would put his troops in that position (tethered goats was a serious analogy).
Force Protection is always Mission #1.

So, reinforce those troops. If they really were so out manned, outgunned, that they couldn't repel and destroy the Syrian militias, who made that call?

If we really thought the Turks and the proxy militia were gonna roll, we should have made clear that would be met with an overwhelming force response. And moved the assets to ready posture.

Force protection doesn't mean cut and run, abandon allies in the field.

Then have your DEMOCRAT house of reps vote to create a declaration to that effect. Put some skin in the game.

Not sure why you call it "your Democrat house of reps"...no more mine than yours.
Nothing that either Salty or I have suggested required House, much less full Congress, to approve beyond the current approval level.

I was having a pretty darn civil discussion with Salty for a change, on the serious question of what could have, should have been done in our deployment, how the threat of Turkish and/or Syrian militia incursion have been best addressed, whether in our military options or how the President handled it with Erdogan. Salty and I may disagree, but it was a serious discussion.

[jhu72]

Really interesting as to where al-Baghdadi was hiding out. Have to wonder what the Turkey connection is, if there is one. Few miles from border in an area crawling with Turkish intelligence operatives. There is an ISIS presence in Turkey, that the Turks are doing damn little to do anything about that I can see.

[old salt]

Seems to me that there's no way Turkey would have risked the kind of devastation we'd have brought down on them.
At a minimum, we could have backed them off long enough to have given all around fair warning, from the Kurds to our European allies to our own forces on the ground to, obtw, Congress.

You overestimate the restraint of the Turks & their proxy forces.
The Turks shot down a Russia fighter. That was an even more dangerous move.

The most likely forces the US would have been in contact with would have been Turkey's proxy Syrian Arab militias, including some extremists like the ones videoed committing war crimes. Do you think they'd exercise restraint if they had the chance to overrun an outpost manned by 12 Americans infidels ? There was no way to reliably anticipate how that situation would have devolved. Not worth the risk.
There's no way a responsible commander would put his troops in that position (tethered goats was a serious analogy).
Force Protection is always Mission #1.

So, reinforce those troops. If they really were so out manned, outgunned, that they couldn't repel and destroy the Syrian militias, who made that call?

If we really thought the Turks and the proxy militia were gonna roll, we should have made clear that would be met with an overwhelming force response. And moved the assets to ready posture.

Force protection doesn't mean cut and run, abandon allies in the field.

Reinforcements ? Who ? from where ? The 82nd Airborne can't get there in time.
The decision to place our troops in those exposed positions was made based on an agreement with our NATO ally, which was executed as agreed.
The SDF had the option to withdraw as well, as many did.

[foreverlax]

What is the best color lipstick to put on a pig?

[MDlaxfan76]

Seems to me that there's no way Turkey would have risked the kind of devastation we'd have brought down on them.
At a minimum, we could have backed them off long enough to have given all around fair warning, from the Kurds to our European allies to our own forces on the ground to, obtw, Congress.

You overestimate the restraint of the Turks & their proxy forces.
The Turks shot down a Russia fighter. That was an even more dangerous move.

The most likely forces the US would have been in contact with would have been Turkey's proxy Syrian Arab militias, including some extremists like the ones videoed committing war crimes. Do you think they'd exercise restraint if they had the chance to overrun an outpost manned by 12 Americans infidels ? There was no way to reliably anticipate how that situation would have devolved. Not worth the risk.
There's no way a responsible commander would put his troops in that position (tethered goats was a serious analogy).
Force Protection is always Mission #1.

So, reinforce those troops. If they really were so out manned, outgunned, that they couldn't repel and destroy the Syrian militias, who made that call?

If we really thought the Turks and the proxy militia were gonna roll, we should have made clear that would be met with an overwhelming force response. And moved the assets to ready posture.

Force protection doesn't mean cut and run, abandon allies in the field.

Reinforcements ? Who ? from where ? The 82nd Airborne can't get there in time.
The decision to place our troops in those exposed positions was made based on an agreement with our NATO ally, which was executed as agreed.
The SDF had the option to withdraw as well, as many did.

So, why not a sufficient force deployed? Are you really saying that we didn't plan this scenario out?
Or are you saying that the plan was indeed to cut and run as soon as Turkey changed its mind?

Again, what did Erdogan say and what was Trump's response?

From his various comments post-decision about the Kurds, it sure sounds like he was happy to throw them under the bus.
You've made clear you didn't like that as well.

But when we say Trump 'green lit' the Turkish advance, you have a problem with that characterization?
Let's see the transcript.