old salt wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:13 pmThere's no need to suggest anything. All you have to do is pay attention to what Esper, Milley & Amb Jeffrey have been saying.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:04 pmAre you suggesting that Esper and Milley and Trump had already decided, prior to the call, that we would withdraw from Syriaold salt wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:31 pmThe issue isn't whether or not it was a "perfect call" or if Trump lies.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:23 amSalty, we've repeatedly watched Trump lie, obvious provable lies, then get various subordinates to back him up. They do so until they get fed up and resign, or refuse and he fires them, or they get nailed on their own ethical issues.
Again and again and again.
I don't know these two guys, certainly would hope they're honest folks.
But we know that Trump is not. Anyone who is horrified by how precipitously this decision to withdraw was made, how surprised the military, State dept, our allies, Congress, all were, would be fascinated to hear what was said by Erdogan and what was said by Trump on this call.
I agree, calls generally shouldn't be released.
But then, generally we don't have someone like Trump on calls.
See the issue?
Was it a "perfect call"???
Critics are accusing Esper & Milley of lying when giving their account of what happened & why.
They are standing accountable for their actions in the chain of command,
which undermines the speculative canard that Trump "greenlighted" the Turkish incursion.
with no warning to our our commanders in the field, our allies, Congress????
And that was the only and best choice???
What did Erdogan say and what did Trump say?
How did they say whatever they said.
Before you going dismissing that Trump told Erdogan to go ahead, we'd get out of the way, let's see the transcript.
Sorry, but we want to know, not what Trump's subordinates may or may not be telling us fulsomely.
This is the issue with not being able to trust Trump.
They had been negotiating with the Turks for months to forestall a military incursion by the huge Turkish force massed on the border & the eastward spread of the Turkish proxy Syrian Arab militias fighting in NW Syria. They were trying to make the Joint Security Mechanism work, & based on their mil to mil, dip to dip relations, they were confident that it was working & would hold for the foreseeable future. Implicit in their negotiations was that the Turks would give us fair warning if they were going to move, so we could safeguard our exposed troops. In return, we as NATO allies, would not oppose them with military force if they did move (even contrary to our strong objections). It was a pragmatic, working level agreement between military commanders & NATO allies. Erdogan blindsided them & Trump with his abrupt decision to move.
I agree with their decision to pull back our 36 troops from the 3 border observation posts.
I do NOT agree with Trump's hasty announcement to pull all our troops out of N Syria & it's execution.
I would have advocated for just pulling them back where necessary to avoid contact with Turkish & proxy forces.
I don't know if our bases at Manbij or Kobane could have been held without fighting -- I'd defer to our area commander on that decision.
I would not have pulled out all our troops & their vehicles & equipment from N Syria & I doubt that Esper & Milley recommended that.
The military leaders & diplomats in both countries are both dealing with irrational leaders pursuing their domestic electoral agendas.
ok, on this we agree. You've previously made it sound as if you were supporting Trump's decision, and making light of the notion that Trump, in fact, greenlit the rapid advance of the Turks and their ethnic cleansing campaign.
Trump in his own public words has said that he does not care about the Kurds at all. Pretty darn disgusting, and I'm confident our forces on the ground who've been fighting shoulder to shoulder with the Kurds would quite agree.
Where you and I may still disagree is that it seems to me that Trump could well have held much more strongly against Erdogan and the timing of the withdrawal. Whether that meant bringing the 36 men back onto a stronger base or not, is very different from withdrawing air support and saying to the world that the Kurds haven't earned our allegiance.
Would that have meant 'fighting' the Turks? Well, yes, if they were firing on us or those we were protecting, darn tootin...and Trump should have made clear that would be result of our taking fire. We certainly have those capabilities.
So...what did Trump actually say to Erdogan?
My hunch is that perhaps he hemmed and hawed and choked and sputtered and then said, "well, if that's what you're going to do, we'll get out of the way." And then said to those who had been listening, 'well, time to get out anyway, right boys? I said, right boys?"
. I am on board with you mate!
TO COMMIT SEPPUKU.A DOUBLE TAP WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER BUT IT'S DEAD AT LONG LAST.
I was a SF Giants fan growing up. But I aver I was nonetheless a big fan of Sandy Koufax. I find it difficult to believe Kindling Boy BELIVES any person, no matter with which hand they write, shoot, bowl, golf or pitch isn't chuffed that the ISIS leader is dead. I guess you can't please everyone.