Next Big D1

D1 Mens Lacrosse
wgdsr
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by wgdsr »

ggait wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:46 am
so you are saying that in a year or 2, they could have 12 fewer male t&f participants, 9 fewer football, and 6 fewer rowing, and be able to add 40 lacrosse players without adding a woman's sport. and it's in the precedent.

right?
You can work the math however you want.

Doing what you suggest, however, would nick off three coaches (and related alumni groups). And would result in CU having four under-rostered squads as compared to its peers. Again, the question is why would the AD want to do that?

Seems like adding one female team (if you can get away with it) that is played by other Ivy schools is the more reasonable way to go. But more expensive and complicated. Adding two female teams (if you have to) is even more expensive/complicated. But totally do-able with enough Benjamins.

Or you could cut an existing mens sport if there's one that the AD thinks there's one that CU doesn't really want/need to continue.
doing what i suggest would not nick off any coaches, no idea where you get that from. it would also not result in under-rostered squads. and as you no doubt know, roster sizes change constantly. so the answer to your premise of why would an ad want to do this for that reason is n/a.

there are plenty of reasons why an ad would want to add lacrosse. there are plenty of reasons why they wouldn't. but title ix, in columbia's case, is not one of them. your narrative is more than off base here. usually it's banter. but there's a bigger problem with it here. it's more consequential, as by all indications one of the leaders of the project to look at it at columbia is on the phone --- and you are misleading him.

$$ is going to be something the athletic department is going to throw back at them. they're an ivy, and aren't pulling in power 5 money. where and how and how much is a legitimate angle. the rest... not so much.
Makeit8Lax
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by Makeit8Lax »

Theoretically taking a few spots from football and track while adding a few to existing women’s teams might work. Politically, those adjustments by themselves won’t sell with a school that until a few years ago stated that the addition of any men’s sport, by itself, constituted an unacceptable risk of a Title IX lawsuit and made even a funded proposal for a team a non-starter. Even one additional women’s team, with some smaller roster adjustments to existing teams, would be a much easier sell. With the established, relatively low-cost women’s club sports out there that can be bumped up I can accept that as a cost of doing business.
wgdsr
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by wgdsr »

i can fully appreciate you've gone down the road a bit, and have a better understanding of the inner workings at columbia in particular (e.g. admission slots, etc.) than anyone else on here.
what you certainly may have already done (or can do) is know your animal on each front as best you can.
athletic departments are used to being able to beat back folks with title ix. it's many times a farce. lawsuits haven't been very frequent, and are brought when a program is cut, or if a school is way out of line. columbia would be doing/is neither. i guess my point is, hope you don't get caught in the weeds with what they will be selling. because they're selling something if their mouth is moving. being able to call their bluff with both options and knowledge of the actual past, not a fabricated strawman, will put you in the best negotiating position.

you "selling" an avenue to make it cheap and cleaner for everyone works. the idea that you have to bring in an additional 50 person headcount is hogwash.
if it were me, i'd be finding nyc/wall st titans/alums who have kids playing. utah's jetblue founder has his son now on the team. the gift for the man that has everything.
or guys that played somewhere and went to columbia business school. in addition to your club crew, and columbia donors. getting several whales, while tough, is a bit easier than a thousand others.
Wheels
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by Wheels »

If Barnard students can play at Columbia, would those 2,000 students count toward Columbia's athletic profile for T9? Talk about removing a prima facie T9 argument against adding a sport...
ggait
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by ggait »

As best I can tell, Columbia is reporting its T9 numbers by including its full time undergrads. Meaning basically all students in the college and the engineering school, and about 2/3rds of the general studies school students. Doing it that way doesn't seem to skew the m/f ratio in either direction.

Does not look like they are baking in all the Barnard students. If you'd add 2,500 more gals to the Columbia numbers, the m/f ratio would skew a lot. Making the athletic opportunities for females go from almost proportional to woefully inadequate. And this discussion would be completely pointless.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Makeit8Lax
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by Makeit8Lax »

I am an alum of Columbia who played for the club team and have been involved heavily with it for the dozen years since I graduated. My alumni group and I have it on good, respected authority, from within the past 12 months, that Columbia is Title IX compliant at this time. The Barnard count question is a confusing one about which I have heard different opinions from different athletic directors (3 in total since my freshman year there). I am content with the opinion that we have now. The school has shown an openness to our cause that did not exist under the previous two athletic directors. We will continue to work them through the appropriate channels to Make It 8. The more money and friends we have backing us, the better.
Cooter
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by Cooter »

It might not be a particularly beneficial thing for the Ivy NCAA tmt competitors: Yale, Penn, and Cornell to add a weak team as a weekend game to their schedule.
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wgdsr
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by wgdsr »

i know you're concerned. notre dame may need to bumped up for cornell anyway, penn could move or move out vermont or st joe's, and yale wouldn't have any problem dropping michigan.
they'll be fine. enough teams will want to play them as long as they're good.
Cooter
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by Cooter »

wgdsr wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:51 pm i know you're concerned. notre dame may need to bumped up for cornell anyway, penn could move or move out vermont or st joe's, and yale wouldn't have any problem dropping michigan.
they'll be fine. enough teams will want to play them as long as they're good.
It looks to me like Yale would lose Albany, but the teams would also lose the option of scheduling someone stronger.
Live Free or Die!
wgdsr
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by wgdsr »

Cooter wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:11 pm
wgdsr wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:51 pm i know you're concerned. notre dame may need to bumped up for cornell anyway, penn could move or move out vermont or st joe's, and yale wouldn't have any problem dropping michigan.
they'll be fine. enough teams will want to play them as long as they're good.
It looks to me like Yale would lose Albany, but the teams would also lose the option of scheduling someone stronger.
schedules are fungible. sometimes even teams like yale have strong teams, beat them, get dropped and have to find others.
as of course you know.
Makeit8Lax
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by Makeit8Lax »

An endowed, well-organized team should not do much if any harm to strength of schedule.
Cooter
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by Cooter »

wgdsr wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:36 pm
Cooter wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:11 pm
wgdsr wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:51 pm i know you're concerned. notre dame may need to bumped up for cornell anyway, penn could move or move out vermont or st joe's, and yale wouldn't have any problem dropping michigan.
they'll be fine. enough teams will want to play them as long as they're good.
It looks to me like Yale would lose Albany, but the teams would also lose the option of scheduling someone stronger.
schedules are fungible. sometimes even teams like yale have strong teams, beat them, get dropped and have to find others.
as of course you know.
I would not say that this is a true statement, as there are various constraints involved. :idea:
Live Free or Die!
wgdsr
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by wgdsr »

Cooter wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:26 am
wgdsr wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:36 pm
Cooter wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:11 pm
wgdsr wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:51 pm i know you're concerned. notre dame may need to bumped up for cornell anyway, penn could move or move out vermont or st joe's, and yale wouldn't have any problem dropping michigan.
they'll be fine. enough teams will want to play them as long as they're good.
It looks to me like Yale would lose Albany, but the teams would also lose the option of scheduling someone stronger.
schedules are fungible. sometimes even teams like yale have strong teams, beat them, get dropped and have to find others.
as of course you know.
I would not say that this is a true statement, as there are various constraints involved. :idea:
ha! bustin chops, but what part isn't true?
FannOLax
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by FannOLax »

Makeit8Lax wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:40 pm An endowed, well-organized team should not do much if any harm to strength of schedule.
Well, a good team that wins OOC games against ranked opponents wouldn't harm strength of schedule. Hopefully Columbia could get up to speed quickly, but for at least a year or two the Lions would probably be weak, which would almost certainly hurt strength of schedule (although if Dartmouth improves...). My guess is that any short-term detriment would be outweighed by all eight Ivies having varsity men's lacrosse, with NCAA games regularly played in Manhattan.
Makeit8Lax
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by Makeit8Lax »

By endowing the team we would be looking to compete right from Year 1. 22 years ago Columbia elevated women’s lax without an endowment (still none today) or full-time assistant coaches (since added). First Ivy win came eight years later and their best conference finish has been fourth, one time with a 3-4 record two years ago. That will not be our model!
ggait
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by ggait »

A well organized and funded new entrant into the Ivy League should have a reasonable chance of competitiveness after a few seasons.

It wouldn't be like going into the buzzsaw of the B10 or the ACC. With 8 teams, in any given year you'll have 2 or 3 in the Top 20, then a few Top 40, and then a couple down lower.

The other good thing about the Ivy League is that recently there's been a nice amount of parity. It isn't always just Princeton and Cornell at the top like it used to be. You've seen Yale, Brown and Penn get up to the top level from time to time. And since Dartmouth is pretty consistently bad, Columbia would have a reasonable chance of not being the permanent cellar dweller.

It is a very do-able task competitively. Just have to get the money, legal and institutional commitment worked out.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
xxxxxxx
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by xxxxxxx »

Does anyone have actual information from the wish list on this thread or is this just hopeful thinking? Seems like a waste of time unless there is real desire on the part of said Universities. Most schools are looking to cut athletic budgets not increase them. I guess the forum is a little slow until the fall ball action starts up?
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QuakerSouth
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by QuakerSouth »

ggait wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:26 pmAnd since Dartmouth is pretty consistently bad, Columbia would have a reasonable chance of not being the permanent cellar dweller.
:o

Waiting for the blowback on that one...
wgdsr
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by wgdsr »

xxxxxxx wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:48 pm Does anyone have actual information from the wish list on this thread or is this just hopeful thinking? Seems like a waste of time unless there is real desire on the part of said Universities. Most schools are looking to cut athletic budgets not increase them. I guess the forum is a little slow until the fall ball action starts up?
most schools???
who are these most schools?
pcowlax
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Re: Next Big D1

Post by pcowlax »

xxxxxxx wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:48 pm Does anyone have actual information from the wish list on this thread or is this just hopeful thinking? Seems like a waste of time unless there is real desire on the part of said Universities. Most schools are looking to cut athletic budgets not increase them. I guess the forum is a little slow until the fall ball action starts up?

They are looking to fully endow the team which would mean no significant increase to the athletic budget for adding the team. The barriers are, as expressed, a) actually raising the money, b) getting the University to agree to add it when it is presented as already endowed (likely not a problem if c isn't) and c) Title IX issues.
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