JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[Typical Lax Dad]

" I'm not defending Trump on this. I'm defending Esper & Milley for making the decision to pull back our vulnerable troops from the border area"

Esper made the decision - Who knew??

Let's see the transcript.

Esper & Milley would not be on the transcript. They were monitoring the call, not speaking on it.
They've both stated publicly, more than once, that they recommended pulling back our exposed troops from the 3 border observation outposts.
If you want to accuse them of lying, then just do so.

Sounds like they piggy backed on Trump’s recommendation unless you believe they suggested something counter to Trump and he took their advice?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... ry-special

In a speech and discussion this morning at the German Marshall Fund, Esper took a far different tone than his boss about the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, and the expulsion of the Kurdish forces who had been fighting ISIS with backing from the U.S.

“Turkey put us all in a very terrible situation. I mean, I think, I think the incursion was unwarranted. I think President Erdogan was fixated on making this incursion for one reason or another,” Esper said. “The U S decision to withdraw less than 50 soldiers from the zone of attack was made after it was very clear to us that Erdogan had made the decision to come across the border.”

US COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED TURKEY: Esper insisted that he had no choice but to pull U.S. troops back, and rejected criticism that keeping American forces in place, or threatening Turkey, would have prevented the assault on the Kurds.

“I was not about to put less than 50 U.S. soldiers in-between a 15,000-plus man Turkish army preceded by Turkish militia and jeopardize the lives of our young service members,” he said during the q-and-a session.

“So everybody has said, well, you could have threatened them with aircraft or you could have just kept them there in place. If I'd done that, I may be in a situation today trying to explain to the American people why I sacrificed American soldiers for that,” Esper argued. “I'm not about to throw up aircraft, and suggest that I'm going to strike a NATO ally because that's just not feasible. We'd be having a different discussion today about the future of alliance if that had happened.”

I guess you only believe the West Point grads who agree with you.

Thanks. You seem to believe military academy grads that support Trump. Otherwise, you make fun of them.

I'm not the one saying you should believe Walker just because he's a WP grad ?
I believe him because it syncs with all the other reporting & the call transcript.

I believe Esper & Milley (Princeton grad) because (unlike the critics & second guessers) they'd be accountable for the outcome of their decision/recommendation, & because they've publicly stated their reasons.

You suggested I only believe the WP grads I agree with....

[old salt]

" I'm not defending Trump on this. I'm defending Esper & Milley for making the decision to pull back our vulnerable troops from the border area"

Esper made the decision - Who knew??

Let's see the transcript.

Esper & Milley would not be on the transcript. They were monitoring the call, not speaking on it.
They've both stated publicly, more than once, that they recommended pulling back our exposed troops from the 3 border observation outposts.
If you want to accuse them of lying, then just do so.

Sounds like they piggy backed on Trump’s recommendation unless you believe they suggested something counter to Trump and he took their advice?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... ry-special

In a speech and discussion this morning at the German Marshall Fund, Esper took a far different tone than his boss about the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, and the expulsion of the Kurdish forces who had been fighting ISIS with backing from the U.S.

“Turkey put us all in a very terrible situation. I mean, I think, I think the incursion was unwarranted. I think President Erdogan was fixated on making this incursion for one reason or another,” Esper said. “The U S decision to withdraw less than 50 soldiers from the zone of attack was made after it was very clear to us that Erdogan had made the decision to come across the border.”

US COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED TURKEY: Esper insisted that he had no choice but to pull U.S. troops back, and rejected criticism that keeping American forces in place, or threatening Turkey, would have prevented the assault on the Kurds.

“I was not about to put less than 50 U.S. soldiers in-between a 15,000-plus man Turkish army preceded by Turkish militia and jeopardize the lives of our young service members,” he said during the q-and-a session.

“So everybody has said, well, you could have threatened them with aircraft or you could have just kept them there in place. If I'd done that, I may be in a situation today trying to explain to the American people why I sacrificed American soldiers for that,” Esper argued. “I'm not about to throw up aircraft, and suggest that I'm going to strike a NATO ally because that's just not feasible. We'd be having a different discussion today about the future of alliance if that had happened.”

I guess you only believe the West Point grads who agree with you.

Thanks. You seem to believe military academy grads that support Trump. Otherwise, you make fun of them.

I'm not the one saying you should believe Walker just because he's a WP grad ?
I believe him because it syncs with all the other reporting & the call transcript.

I believe Esper & Milley (Princeton grad) because (unlike the critics & second guessers) they'd be accountable for the outcome of their decision/recommendation, & because they've publicly stated their reasons.

You suggested I only believe the WP grads I agree with....

So you believe Esper & Milley ? If so, why post this :
Sounds like they piggy backed on Trump’s recommendation unless you believe they suggested something counter to Trump and he took their advice?
In reply to that , I told you I believe what they've said, on the public record.

[Typical Lax Dad]

" I'm not defending Trump on this. I'm defending Esper & Milley for making the decision to pull back our vulnerable troops from the border area"

Esper made the decision - Who knew??

Let's see the transcript.

Esper & Milley would not be on the transcript. They were monitoring the call, not speaking on it.
They've both stated publicly, more than once, that they recommended pulling back our exposed troops from the 3 border observation outposts.
If you want to accuse them of lying, then just do so.

Sounds like they piggy backed on Trump’s recommendation unless you believe they suggested something counter to Trump and he took their advice?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... ry-special

In a speech and discussion this morning at the German Marshall Fund, Esper took a far different tone than his boss about the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, and the expulsion of the Kurdish forces who had been fighting ISIS with backing from the U.S.

“Turkey put us all in a very terrible situation. I mean, I think, I think the incursion was unwarranted. I think President Erdogan was fixated on making this incursion for one reason or another,” Esper said. “The U S decision to withdraw less than 50 soldiers from the zone of attack was made after it was very clear to us that Erdogan had made the decision to come across the border.”

US COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED TURKEY: Esper insisted that he had no choice but to pull U.S. troops back, and rejected criticism that keeping American forces in place, or threatening Turkey, would have prevented the assault on the Kurds.

“I was not about to put less than 50 U.S. soldiers in-between a 15,000-plus man Turkish army preceded by Turkish militia and jeopardize the lives of our young service members,” he said during the q-and-a session.

“So everybody has said, well, you could have threatened them with aircraft or you could have just kept them there in place. If I'd done that, I may be in a situation today trying to explain to the American people why I sacrificed American soldiers for that,” Esper argued. “I'm not about to throw up aircraft, and suggest that I'm going to strike a NATO ally because that's just not feasible. We'd be having a different discussion today about the future of alliance if that had happened.”

I guess you only believe the West Point grads who agree with you.

Thanks. You seem to believe military academy grads that support Trump. Otherwise, you make fun of them.

I'm not the one saying you should believe Walker just because he's a WP grad ?
I believe him because it syncs with all the other reporting & the call transcript.

I believe Esper & Milley (Princeton grad) because (unlike the critics & second guessers) they'd be accountable for the outcome of their decision/recommendation, & because they've publicly stated their reasons.

You suggested I only believe the WP grads I agree with....

So you believe Esper & Milley ? If so, why post this :
Sounds like they piggy backed on Trump’s recommendation unless you believe they suggested something counter to Trump and he took their advice?
In reply to that , I told you I believe what they've said, on the public record.

I hadn’t read the article and that’s what the synopsis “sounded” like. No reason to question them after seeing more context. Thanks. I believe them too. Still don’t understand why you qualified Army West Point.

[old salt]

" I'm not defending Trump on this. I'm defending Esper & Milley for making the decision to pull back our vulnerable troops from the border area"

Esper made the decision - Who knew??

Let's see the transcript.

Esper & Milley would not be on the transcript. They were monitoring the call, not speaking on it.
They've both stated publicly, more than once, that they recommended pulling back our exposed troops from the 3 border observation outposts.
If you want to accuse them of lying, then just do so.

Sounds like they piggy backed on Trump’s recommendation unless you believe they suggested something counter to Trump and he took their advice?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... ry-special

In a speech and discussion this morning at the German Marshall Fund, Esper took a far different tone than his boss about the Turkish invasion of northern Syria, and the expulsion of the Kurdish forces who had been fighting ISIS with backing from the U.S.

“Turkey put us all in a very terrible situation. I mean, I think, I think the incursion was unwarranted. I think President Erdogan was fixated on making this incursion for one reason or another,” Esper said. “The U S decision to withdraw less than 50 soldiers from the zone of attack was made after it was very clear to us that Erdogan had made the decision to come across the border.”

US COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED TURKEY: Esper insisted that he had no choice but to pull U.S. troops back, and rejected criticism that keeping American forces in place, or threatening Turkey, would have prevented the assault on the Kurds.

“I was not about to put less than 50 U.S. soldiers in-between a 15,000-plus man Turkish army preceded by Turkish militia and jeopardize the lives of our young service members,” he said during the q-and-a session.

“So everybody has said, well, you could have threatened them with aircraft or you could have just kept them there in place. If I'd done that, I may be in a situation today trying to explain to the American people why I sacrificed American soldiers for that,” Esper argued. “I'm not about to throw up aircraft, and suggest that I'm going to strike a NATO ally because that's just not feasible. We'd be having a different discussion today about the future of alliance if that had happened.”

I guess you only believe the West Point grads who agree with you.

Thanks. You seem to believe military academy grads that support Trump. Otherwise, you make fun of them.

I'm not the one saying you should believe Walker just because he's a WP grad ?
I believe him because it syncs with all the other reporting & the call transcript.

I believe Esper & Milley (Princeton grad) because (unlike the critics & second guessers) they'd be accountable for the outcome of their decision/recommendation, & because they've publicly stated their reasons.

You suggested I only believe the WP grads I agree with....

So you believe Esper & Milley ? If so, why post this :
Sounds like they piggy backed on Trump’s recommendation unless you believe they suggested something counter to Trump and he took their advice?
In reply to that , I told you I believe what they've said, on the public record.

I hadn’t read the article and that’s what the synopsis “sounded” like. No reason to question them after seeing more context. Thanks. I believe them too. Still don’t understand why you qualified Army West Point.

Because it was mentioned (by 3 others) in the thread where this was being discussed.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Those 3 others didn’t include me.

[MDlaxfan76]

" I'm not defending Trump on this. I'm defending Esper & Milley for making the decision to pull back our vulnerable troops from the border area"

Esper made the decision - Who knew??

Let's see the transcript.

Esper & Milley would not be on the transcript. They were monitoring the call, not speaking on it.
They've both stated publicly, more than once, that they recommended pulling back our exposed troops from the 3 border observation outposts.
If you want to accuse them of lying, then just do so.

No, I simply want to see what Trump said and Erdogan said.

From the transcript we can see how reliable these guys are, but more importantly we can see what the primary actors said...

Let's see the transcript.

[old salt]

" I'm not defending Trump on this. I'm defending Esper & Milley for making the decision to pull back our vulnerable troops from the border area"

Esper made the decision - Who knew??

Let's see the transcript.

Esper & Milley would not be on the transcript. They were monitoring the call, not speaking on it.
They've both stated publicly, more than once, that they recommended pulling back our exposed troops from the 3 border observation outposts.
If you want to accuse them of lying, then just do so.

No, I simply want to see what Trump said and Erdogan said.

From the transcript we can see how reliable these guys are, but more importantly we can see what the primary actors said...

Let's see the transcript.

That's not realistic, it's absurd. Diplomacy doesn't function that way. Trump released the transcript of his call with Z-sky. Now you think you're entitled to a read out of every call between the President & every foreign leader. Get real. Nobody'd talk to us.

No matter what it contained, you'd flyspeck it & spin it out of context. To properly evaluate what was said on that call, you'd need to see all the previous discussions between Trump & Erdogan on our relationship with the Kurds.

[jhu72]

So we are just to believe a pathological liar and his enablers.

[old salt]

So we are just to believe a pathological liar and his enablers.

If it wasn't true, Milley & Esper could simply say nothing, by declining to comment on Presidential communications.
The way you reflexively & casually slander good people you disagree with -- that's what's pathological.

[Trinity]

https://thenextweb.com/politics/2019/10 ... an-attack/

WH Cybersecurity Chief resigns.

[seacoaster]

https://thenextweb.com/politics/2019/10 ... an-attack/

WH Cybersecurity Chief resigns.

"They say that history repeats itself. Unfortunately given all of the changes I’ve seen in the past three months, I foresee the White House is posturing itself to be electronically compromised once again. Allowing for a large portion of institutional knowledge to concurrently walk right out the front door seems contrary to the best of interests of the mission and organization as a whole."

At bottom, isn't this the basic concern: the Trump executive branch isn't good or effective at governing and executing sound policy-judgments. Even when it hires competent people, it doesn't devote the time and resources to getting the tasks done.

[MDlaxfan76]

So we are just to believe a pathological liar and his enablers.

If it wasn't true, Milley & Esper could simply say nothing, by declining to comment on Presidential communications.
The way you reflexively & casually slander good people you disagree with -- that's what's pathological.

Salty, we've repeatedly watched Trump lie, obvious provable lies, then get various subordinates to back him up. They do so until they get fed up and resign, or refuse and he fires them, or they get nailed on their own ethical issues.

Again and again and again.

I don't know these two guys, certainly would hope they're honest folks.

But we know that Trump is not. Anyone who is horrified by how precipitously this decision to withdraw was made, how surprised the military, State dept, our allies, Congress, all were, would be fascinated to hear what was said by Erdogan and what was said by Trump on this call.

I agree, calls generally shouldn't be released.
But then, generally we don't have someone like Trump on calls.
See the issue?

Was it a "perfect call"???

[foreverlax]

Just get over it....blah blah blah.

[Trinity]

New: Lev Parnas, recently indicted for foreign influence in U.S. elections, collaborated closely with The Hill’s John Solomon to fuel spurious allegations involving the Bidens and Ukraine.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how- ... conspiracy

[seacoaster]

New: Lev Parnas, recently indicted for foreign influence in U.S. elections, collaborated closely with The Hill’s John Solomon to fuel spurious allegations involving the Bidens and Ukraine.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how- ... conspiracy

Good article. Thanks for posting it.

[jhu72]

New: Lev Parnas, recently indicted for foreign influence in U.S. elections, collaborated closely with The Hill’s John Solomon to fuel spurious allegations involving the Bidens and Ukraine.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how- ... conspiracy

Can't remember where but I heard a rumor that sounded very much like this about a week ago. Right wing media pulling the strings of the conspiracy. Glad ProPublica nailed it down.

[old salt]

New: Lev Parnas, recently indicted for foreign influence in U.S. elections, collaborated closely with The Hill’s John Solomon to fuel spurious allegations involving the Bidens and Ukraine.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how- ... conspiracy

Can't remember where but I heard a rumor that sounded very much like this about a week ago. Right wing media pulling the strings of the conspiracy. Glad ProPublica nailed it down.

...nailed it down with a left wing conspiracy theory.

[old salt]

So we are just to believe a pathological liar and his enablers.

If it wasn't true, Milley & Esper could simply say nothing, by declining to comment on Presidential communications.
The way you reflexively & casually slander good people you disagree with -- that's what's pathological.

Salty, we've repeatedly watched Trump lie, obvious provable lies, then get various subordinates to back him up. They do so until they get fed up and resign, or refuse and he fires them, or they get nailed on their own ethical issues.

Again and again and again.

I don't know these two guys, certainly would hope they're honest folks.

But we know that Trump is not. Anyone who is horrified by how precipitously this decision to withdraw was made, how surprised the military, State dept, our allies, Congress, all were, would be fascinated to hear what was said by Erdogan and what was said by Trump on this call.

I agree, calls generally shouldn't be released.
But then, generally we don't have someone like Trump on calls.
See the issue?

Was it a "perfect call"???

The issue isn't whether or not it was a "perfect call" or if Trump lies.

Critics are accusing Esper & Milley of lying when giving their account of what happened & why.
They are standing accountable for their actions in the chain of command,
which undermines the speculative canard that Trump "greenlighted" the Turkish incursion.

[MDlaxfan76]

So we are just to believe a pathological liar and his enablers.

If it wasn't true, Milley & Esper could simply say nothing, by declining to comment on Presidential communications.
The way you reflexively & casually slander good people you disagree with -- that's what's pathological.

Salty, we've repeatedly watched Trump lie, obvious provable lies, then get various subordinates to back him up. They do so until they get fed up and resign, or refuse and he fires them, or they get nailed on their own ethical issues.

Again and again and again.

I don't know these two guys, certainly would hope they're honest folks.

But we know that Trump is not. Anyone who is horrified by how precipitously this decision to withdraw was made, how surprised the military, State dept, our allies, Congress, all were, would be fascinated to hear what was said by Erdogan and what was said by Trump on this call.

I agree, calls generally shouldn't be released.
But then, generally we don't have someone like Trump on calls.
See the issue?

Was it a "perfect call"???

The issue isn't whether or not it was a "perfect call" or if Trump lies.

Critics are accusing Esper & Milley of lying when giving their account of what happened & why.
They are standing accountable for their actions in the chain of command,
which undermines the speculative canard that Trump "greenlighted" the Turkish incursion.

Are you suggesting that Esper and Milley and Trump had already decided, prior to the call, that we would withdraw from Syria
with no warning to our our commanders in the field, our allies, Congress????

And that was the only and best choice???

What did Erdogan say and what did Trump say?
How did they say whatever they said.

Before you going dismissing that Trump told Erdogan to go ahead, we'd get out of the way, let's see the transcript.

Sorry, but we want to know, not what Trump's subordinates may or may not be telling us fulsomely.
This is the issue with not being able to trust Trump.

[old salt]

So we are just to believe a pathological liar and his enablers.

If it wasn't true, Milley & Esper could simply say nothing, by declining to comment on Presidential communications.
The way you reflexively & casually slander good people you disagree with -- that's what's pathological.

Salty, we've repeatedly watched Trump lie, obvious provable lies, then get various subordinates to back him up. They do so until they get fed up and resign, or refuse and he fires them, or they get nailed on their own ethical issues.

Again and again and again.

I don't know these two guys, certainly would hope they're honest folks.

But we know that Trump is not. Anyone who is horrified by how precipitously this decision to withdraw was made, how surprised the military, State dept, our allies, Congress, all were, would be fascinated to hear what was said by Erdogan and what was said by Trump on this call.

I agree, calls generally shouldn't be released.
But then, generally we don't have someone like Trump on calls.
See the issue?

Was it a "perfect call"???

The issue isn't whether or not it was a "perfect call" or if Trump lies.

Critics are accusing Esper & Milley of lying when giving their account of what happened & why.
They are standing accountable for their actions in the chain of command,
which undermines the speculative canard that Trump "greenlighted" the Turkish incursion.

Are you suggesting that Esper and Milley and Trump had already decided, prior to the call, that we would withdraw from Syria
with no warning to our our commanders in the field, our allies, Congress????

And that was the only and best choice???

What did Erdogan say and what did Trump say?
How did they say whatever they said.

Before you going dismissing that Trump told Erdogan to go ahead, we'd get out of the way, let's see the transcript.

Sorry, but we want to know, not what Trump's subordinates may or may not be telling us fulsomely.
This is the issue with not being able to trust Trump.

There's no need to suggest anything. All you have to do is pay attention to what Esper, Milley & Amb Jeffrey have been saying.
They had been negotiating with the Turks for months to forestall a military incursion by the huge Turkish force massed on the border & the eastward spread of the Turkish proxy Syrian Arab militias fighting in NW Syria. They were trying to make the Joint Security Mechanism work, & based on their mil to mil, dip to dip relations, they were confident that it was working & would hold for the foreseeable future. Implicit in their negotiations was that the Turks would give us fair warning if they were going to move, so we could safeguard our exposed troops. In return, we as NATO allies, would not oppose them with military force if they did move (even contrary to our strong objections). It was a pragmatic, working level agreement between military commanders & NATO allies. Erdogan blindsided them & Trump with his abrupt decision to move.

I agree with their decision to pull back our 36 troops from the 3 border observation posts.
I do NOT agree with Trump's hasty announcement to pull all our troops out of N Syria & it's execution.
I would have advocated for just pulling them back where necessary to avoid contact with Turkish & proxy forces.
I don't know if our bases at Manbij or Kobane could have been held without fighting -- I'd defer to our area commander on that decision.
I would not have pulled out all our troops & their vehicles & equipment from N Syria & I doubt that Esper & Milley recommended that.
The military leaders & diplomats in both countries are both dealing with irrational leaders pursuing their domestic electoral agendas.