Conservatives and Liberals

[seacoaster]

I haven’t seen anything about this posted anywhere here today, although frankly I haven’t looked very hard. Here’s Rand Paul on how Dems steal elections.

“Seeding an area heavy with potential Democratic votes with as many absentee ballots as possible, targeting and convincing potential voters to complete them in a legally valid way, and then harvesting and counting the results”.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RandPaul/sta ... frame.html

Lunatic.

He just wants his types to be allowed to vote.

Yes. Support of the Big Lie is the fundamental litmus test for GOP candidates now. Thanks everyone!!!

[Brooklyn]

I haven’t seen anything about this posted anywhere here today, although frankly I haven’t looked very hard. Here’s Rand Paul on how Dems steal elections.

“Seeding an area heavy with potential Democratic votes with as many absentee ballots as possible, targeting and convincing potential voters to complete them in a legally valid way, and then harvesting and counting the results”.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RandPaul/sta ... frame.html

Lunatic.

He just wants his types to be allowed to vote.

Laughable!

[seacoaster]

I haven’t seen anything about this posted anywhere here today, although frankly I haven’t looked very hard. Here’s Rand Paul on how Dems steal elections.

“Seeding an area heavy with potential Democratic votes with as many absentee ballots as possible, targeting and convincing potential voters to complete them in a legally valid way, and then harvesting and counting the results”.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RandPaul/sta ... frame.html

Lunatic.

He just wants his types to be allowed to vote.

Laughable!

Nope. Deadly serious business -- elected leaders telling constituents that their visit to the polls is fraught with illegality and fraud, when it isn't. Easily the most dangerous thing happening now.

[seacoaster]

Interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/29/opin ... urope.html

"We pay too little attention to delivering effective government as a critical democratic value. We are familiar with the threats posed by democratic backsliding and the rise of illiberal forces in several democracies, including the United States. But the most pervasive and perhaps deepest challenge facing virtually all Western democracies today is the political fragmentation of democratic politics.

Political fragmentation is the dispersion of political power into so many different hands and centers of power that it becomes difficult for democratic governments to function effectively.

President Biden has recognized this historic challenge, calling the defining mission of his presidency to be winning the “battle between the utility of democracies in the 21st century and autocracies.”

Yet even with unified control of government, the internal divisions of the Democratic Party postponed passage of his bipartisan infrastructure bill for several months and have made it uncertain which parts, if any, of the Build Back Better proposal will be enacted.

When democratic governments seem incapable of delivering on their promises, this failure can lead to alienation, resignation, distrust and withdrawal among many citizens. It can also trigger demands for authoritarian leaders who promise to cut through messy politics. At an even greater extreme, it can lead people to question democracy itself and become open to anti-democratic systems of government.

The struggle of the Biden administration to deliver on its policy agenda offers a good example of the political fragmentation of politics taking place throughout Western democracies. It takes different forms in the multiparty systems of Europe and the two-party system of the United States. The European democracies are experiencing the unraveling of the traditionally dominant center-left and center-right major parties and coalitions that have governed since World War II. Support for these parties has splintered into new parties of the right and left, along with others with less-easily defined ideological elements. From 2015 to 2017, over 30 new political parties entered European parliaments. Across European democracies, the percentage of people who identify strongly with a political party or are members of one has declined precipitously.

The effects on the ability to govern have been dramatic. In Germany, the stable anchor of Europe since the 1950s, the two major parties regularly used to receive over 90 percent of the vote combined; in this fall’s elections, that plummeted to less than 50 percent. Support has hemorrhaged to green, anti-immigrant, free-market and other parties. After its 2017 elections, with support fragmented among many parties, it took Germany six months to cobble together a governing coalition, the longest time in the country’s history. The Netherlands, after its 2017 elections, needed a record 225 days to form a government.

The coalitional governments assembled amid this cacophony of parties are also more fragile. Spain, for example, was forced to hold four national elections between 2015 and 2019 to find a stable governing coalition. Spain had effectively been a two-party democracy until 2015, but mass protest movements spawned a proliferation of new parties that made forging stable governments difficult. In Sweden, the prime minister lost a vote of no confidence this summer — a first in the country’s modern political history. Digital pop-up parties, including anti-party parties, arise out of nowhere and radically disrupt politics, as the Brexit Party did in Britain and the Five Star Movement did in Italy.

The same forces driving fragmentation in other democracies are also roiling the United States, though our election structures make effective third parties highly unlikely. Here the forces of fragmentation get channeled within the two major parties. The most dramatic example on the Republican side is that when the party controlled the House from 2011 to 2019, it devoured two of its own speakers, John Boehner and Paul Ryan. Mr. Boehner’s memoir portrays a party caucus so internally fragmented as to be ungovernable.

Similarly, the central story of the Biden administration is whether the Democratic Party can overcome its internal conflicts to deliver effective policies. Remarkably, Speaker Nancy Pelosi scheduled floor votes on the infrastructure bill, only to pull it because she could not deliver enough Democratic votes — extraordinary evidence of how difficult it is for a speaker to unite her caucus amid the forces of fragmentation. It took a disastrous election night for progressives to bury their concerns and support the bill — and several now regret having done so.

The recent collapse of Build Back Better, at least for now, led to a remarkable public bloodletting between different elements within the party.

Large structural forces have driven the fragmentation of politics throughout the West. On the economic front, the forces include globalization’s contribution to the stagnation of middle- and working-class incomes, rising inequality and outrage over the 2008 financial crisis. On the cultural side: conflicts over immigration, nationalism and other issues.

Since the New Deal in the United States and World War II in Europe, the parties of the left had represented less affluent, less educated voters. Now those voters are becoming the base of parties on the right, with more affluent, more educated voters shifting to parties on the left. Major parties are struggling to figure out how to patch together winning coalitions in the midst of this shattering transformation.

The communications revolution is also a major force generating the disabling fragmentation of politics. Across Europe, it has given rise to loosely organized, leaderless protest movements that disrupt politics and give birth to other parties — but make effective government harder to achieve.

In the United States, the new communications era has enabled the rise of free-agent politicians. A Congress with more free agents is more difficult to govern. Even in their first years in office, individual members of Congress (like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Ted Cruz) no longer need to work their way up through the party or serve on major committees to attract national visibility and influence.

Through cable television and social media, they can find and construct their own national constituencies. Through internet fund-raising (particularly small donations), politicians (particularly from the extremes) can become effective fund-raising machines on their own. In this era, party leaders lack the leverage they once had to force party members to accept the party line. That is why speakers of the House resign or reschedule votes on which they cannot deliver.

The political fragmentation that now characterizes nearly all Western democracies reflects deep dissatisfaction with the ability of traditional parties and governments to deliver effective policies. Yet perversely, this fragmentation makes it all the more difficult for governments to do so. Mr. Biden is right: Democracies must figure out how to overcome the forces of fragmentation to show they once again can deliver effective government."

Pretty grim picture for the USA, given one party's policy-free policy of "No."

[old salt]

Interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/29/opin ... urope.html


In the United States, the new communications era has enabled the rise of free-agent politicians. A Congress with more free agents is more difficult to govern. Even in their first years in office, individual members of Congress (like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Ted Cruz) no longer need to work their way up through the party or serve on major committees to attract national visibility and influence.

Through cable television and social media, they can find and construct their own national constituencies. Through internet fund-raising (particularly small donations), politicians (particularly from the extremes) can become effective fund-raising machines on their own. In this era, party leaders lack the leverage they once had to force party members to accept the party line. That is why speakers of the House resign or reschedule votes on which they cannot deliver.

The political fragmentation that now characterizes nearly all Western democracies reflects deep dissatisfaction with the ability of traditional parties and governments to deliver effective policies. Yet perversely, this fragmentation makes it all the more difficult for governments to do so. Mr. Biden is right: Democracies must figure out how to overcome the forces of fragmentation to show they once again can deliver effective government."

Pretty grim picture for the USA, given one party's policy-free policy of "No."

Bingo ! ...the impact of anti-social media.

Pretty grim picture for the USA, given the other party's all my way, or no way policy.

[Brooklyn]

I haven’t seen anything about this posted anywhere here today, although frankly I haven’t looked very hard. Here’s Rand Paul on how Dems steal elections.

“Seeding an area heavy with potential Democratic votes with as many absentee ballots as possible, targeting and convincing potential voters to complete them in a legally valid way, and then harvesting and counting the results”.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RandPaul/sta ... frame.html

Lunatic.

He just wants his types to be allowed to vote.

Laughable!

Nope. Deadly serious business -- elected leaders telling constituents that their visit to the polls is fraught with illegality and fraud, when it isn't. Easily the most dangerous thing happening now.

Indeed, it is ''deadly serious business''. Sad that the Republicans who used to condemn the poll tax now engage in practices that are infinitely worse than those things were.

[seacoaster]

Interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/29/opin ... urope.html


In the United States, the new communications era has enabled the rise of free-agent politicians. A Congress with more free agents is more difficult to govern. Even in their first years in office, individual members of Congress (like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Ted Cruz) no longer need to work their way up through the party or serve on major committees to attract national visibility and influence.

Through cable television and social media, they can find and construct their own national constituencies. Through internet fund-raising (particularly small donations), politicians (particularly from the extremes) can become effective fund-raising machines on their own. In this era, party leaders lack the leverage they once had to force party members to accept the party line. That is why speakers of the House resign or reschedule votes on which they cannot deliver.

The political fragmentation that now characterizes nearly all Western democracies reflects deep dissatisfaction with the ability of traditional parties and governments to deliver effective policies. Yet perversely, this fragmentation makes it all the more difficult for governments to do so. Mr. Biden is right: Democracies must figure out how to overcome the forces of fragmentation to show they once again can deliver effective government."

Pretty grim picture for the USA, given one party's policy-free policy of "No."

Bingo ! ...the impact of anti-social media.

Pretty grim picture for the USA, given the other party's all my way, or no way policy.

Always your little party first. Just deliberately inaccurate:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mcpli/status ... 8438005764

[seacoaster]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/29/us/p ... -maps.html

“One of the country’s most gerrymandered political maps has suddenly been replaced by one of the fairest.

A decade after Michigan Republicans gave themselves seemingly impregnable majorities in the state Legislature by drawing districts that heavily favored their party, a newly created independent commission approved maps late Tuesday that create districts so competitive that Democrats have a fighting chance of recapturing the State Senate for the first time since 1984.

The work of the new commission, which includes Democrats, Republicans and independents and was established through a citizen ballot initiative, stands in sharp contrast to the type of hyperpartisan extreme gerrymandering that has swept much of the country, exacerbating political polarization — and it may highlight a potential path to undoing such gerrymandering.

With lawmakers excluded from the mapmaking process, Michigan’s new districts will much more closely reflect the overall partisan makeup of the hotly contested battleground state.

“Michigan’s a jump ball, and this is a jump-ball map,” said Michael Li, a senior counsel who focuses on redistricting at the Brennan Center for Justice. “There’s a lot of competition in this map, which is what you would expect in a state like Michigan.”

The commission’s three new maps — for Congress, the State House and the State Senate — restore a degree of fairness, but there were some notable criticisms. All of the maps still have a slight Republican advantage, in part because Democratic voters in the state are mostly concentrated in densely populated areas. The map for the State House also splits more than half of the state’s counties into several districts, despite redistricting guidelines that call for keeping neighboring communities together.

The maps may also face a legal challenge from Black voters in the Detroit area, to whom the commission tried to give more opportunities for representation by unpacking them, or spreading them among more legislative districts.

Detroit’s State Senate delegation will jump to nine members from five, and its State House delegation to 15 representatives from nine. But local Black elected officials and civil rights groups contend that while the intention may have been noble, the result actually dilutes Black voting strength, not only in general elections but also in primaries, in which elections for Black legislators are almost always decided.

The reduced percentages of Black voters in some of the new districts may prevent candidates from winning primary elections on the strength of the Black vote alone, those critics say.

“The goal of creating partisan fairness cannot so negatively impact Black communities as to erase us from the space,” said Adam Hollier, a state senator from the Detroit area. “They think that they are unpacking, because that is the narrative that they hear from across the country, without looking at what that means in the city of Detroit.”

Republicans were also discussing possible challenges to the new maps.

“We are evaluating all options to take steps necessary to defend the voices silenced by this commission,” Gustavo Portela, a Michigan G.O.P. spokesman, said in a statement Wednesday, without elaborating on whose voices he meant.

The G.O.P. advantage in Michigan’s Legislature has held solid for years even as Democrats carried the state in presidential elections and won races for governor and U.S. Senate. In 2014, Senator Gary Peters, a Democrat, won the seat formerly held by Carl Levin by more than 13 percentage points. Yet in the same year, Republicans in the State Senate expanded their supermajority, winning 27 of 38 seats.

So great a divergence between statewide and legislative elections is often a telltale sign of a gerrymandered map. And a lawsuit in 2018 unearthed emails in which Republicans boasted about packing “Dem garbage” into fewer districts and ensuring Republican advantages “in 2012 and beyond.”

But the new State Senate map would create 20 seats that President Biden would have carried in 2020 and 18 that former President Donald J. Trump would have carried, giving Democrats new hopes of competitiveness.

The new maps offer no guarantee that Democrats will win either chamber, however. And in a strong year for the G.O.P., which 2022 may be, Republicans could retain their advantage in the Legislature and could also come away with a majority of the state’s new 13-seat congressional delegation.

The congressional map includes three tossup seats where the 2020 presidential margin was less than five points, and two more seats that could be competitive in a wave year, with presidential margins of less than 10 points. Two current Democratic representatives, Haley Stevens and Andy Levin, were drawn into the same district, setting up a competitive primary in the 11th District. Both declared their intention to run on Tuesday.

The State House will also feature at least 20 competitive districts.

Preserving such competition, election experts say, is one of the key goals in redistricting reform.

“This is the quintessential success story of redistricting,” said Sam Wang, director of the Princeton Gerrymandering Project. “These maps treated the two parties, Democrats and Republicans, about as fairly as you could ever imagine a map being. In all three cases, whoever gets the most votes statewide is likely to control the chamber or the delegation. And there’s competition in all three maps.”

The path to an independent redistricting commission in Michigan began with a Facebook post days after the 2016 election from a woman with no political experience.

“I’d like to take on gerrymandering in Michigan,” the woman, Katie Fahey, wrote. “If you’re interested in doing this as well, please let me know.”

That post started a movement. Soon, a 5,000-member volunteer organization, Voters Not Politicians, was coordinating online through Facebook messages and Google documents, organizing a ballot initiative campaign and crisscrossing the state to gin up support. Members wrote folk songs and dressed up in costumes as gerrymandered districts to draw attention to the effort.

Republicans sued to block the ballot initiative but were denied by the state Supreme Court in August 2018. That November, the measure passed overwhelmingly, with more than 61 percent of Michigan voters approving the creation of an independent redistricting commission.

“This is about voters taking our power back,” said Nancy Wang, the executive director of Voters Not Politicians. “All we wanted to do was get to where we are now.”

[old salt]

Interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/29/opin ... urope.html


In the United States, the new communications era has enabled the rise of free-agent politicians. A Congress with more free agents is more difficult to govern. Even in their first years in office, individual members of Congress (like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Ted Cruz) no longer need to work their way up through the party or serve on major committees to attract national visibility and influence.

Through cable television and social media, they can find and construct their own national constituencies. Through internet fund-raising (particularly small donations), politicians (particularly from the extremes) can become effective fund-raising machines on their own. In this era, party leaders lack the leverage they once had to force party members to accept the party line. That is why speakers of the House resign or reschedule votes on which they cannot deliver.

The political fragmentation that now characterizes nearly all Western democracies reflects deep dissatisfaction with the ability of traditional parties and governments to deliver effective policies. Yet perversely, this fragmentation makes it all the more difficult for governments to do so. Mr. Biden is right: Democracies must figure out how to overcome the forces of fragmentation to show they once again can deliver effective government."

Pretty grim picture for the USA, given one party's policy-free policy of "No."

Bingo ! ...the impact of anti-social media.

Pretty grim picture for the USA, given the other party's all my way, or no way policy.

Always your little party first. Just deliberately inaccurate:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mcpli/status ... 8438005764

Enough moderate (R) Senators joined (D) Senators to pass BIB.
The same could have happened with segments of BBB, like CTC, had (D)'s not been all-or-nothing scorched earth,
& attacked Manchin & Sinema.

[old salt]

Take a few minutes and read Peter King's story on his cross country trip with John Madden in late 1990. It's well worth your time

https://vault.si.com/vault/1990/11/26/b ... -on-wheels

Politicians and the rest of us could learn a LOT listening to John Madden ruminate on America. Fortunately for us, he lives on and we can/should still learn from what he said about so many things for all those years.

We should all take a few minutes and listen to John Madden talk about America...and all its regions and places that make it America.

If you missed the 1.5 hr doc on Madden on FS on Dec 25, now re-airing on NFL Network.

[Kismet]

Take a few minutes and read Peter King's story on his cross country trip with John Madden in late 1990. It's well worth your time

https://vault.si.com/vault/1990/11/26/b ... -on-wheels

Politicians and the rest of us could learn a LOT listening to John Madden ruminate on America. Fortunately for us, he lives on and we can/should still learn from what he said about so many things for all those years.

We should all take a few minutes and listen to John Madden talk about America...and all its regions and places that make it America.

If you missed the 1.5 hr doc on Madden on FS on Dec 25, now re-airing on NFL Network.

added broadcasts

Fox Sports announced the network will re-air its "All Madden" documentary "in honor of the incomparable coach, broadcaster, and leader." It will air on on FS1 Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. ET and 10:30 p.m. ET and on FOX on Thursday at 8:00 p.m. ET.

Having met John Madden in person - what you see is certainly what you get. The most modest yet insightful person I've ever met in the sports world...perhaps more so than even Muhammad Ali in many ways. Exception being that mostly Madden stuck to football whereas Ali did not stick to boxing.

Tom Coughlin's Op-Ed in NYT today says it all
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/30/opin ... n-nfl.html

[youthathletics]

Take a few minutes and read Peter King's story on his cross country trip with John Madden in late 1990. It's well worth your time

https://vault.si.com/vault/1990/11/26/b ... -on-wheels

Politicians and the rest of us could learn a LOT listening to John Madden ruminate on America. Fortunately for us, he lives on and we can/should still learn from what he said about so many things for all those years.

We should all take a few minutes and listen to John Madden talk about America...and all its regions and places that make it America.

If you missed the 1.5 hr doc on Madden on FS on Dec 25, now re-airing on NFL Network.

added broadcasts

Fox Sports announced the network will re-air its "All Madden" documentary "in honor of the incomparable coach, broadcaster, and leader." It will air on on FS1 Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. ET and 10:30 p.m. ET and on FOX on Thursday at 8:00 p.m. ET.

Having met John Madden in person - what you see is certainly what you get. The most modest yet insightful person I've ever met in the sports world...perhaps more so than even Muhammad Ali in many ways. Exception being that mostly Madden stuck to football whereas Ali did not stick to boxing.

From a friend of mine....

My John Madden story and why I think he was such a gem of a person:

It was a Saturday night in December in 1987. I was all dressed up to play at a fancy corporate Christmas party with my band (EDITED), sitting in the fancy but quiet hotel lobby. We had to be set up by 6pm, but we didn’t start playing until 9pm, so I was studying for one of my law school final exams while I had the time.

I was sitting on one of those big tufted circular sofas and I smelled cigar smoke when I absentmindedly waved my hand in front of my nose. Then I heard a voice say “is the smoke bothering you? I can move.” I looked in the direction of the voice and it belonged to John Madden. At first I was a little stunned. I was a huge Washington football fan and couldn’t believe one of my favorite commentators was standing in front of me. Then I said “no sir, I kind of like the smell. And oh my gosh, you’re John Madden.”

He laughed and reached out to shake my hand. I remember how large his hand was, completely wrapping my hand up in his. We started talking. He was staying at the hotel and was commentating the next day on the Washington/Cowboys game. He asked me why I was sitting alone in the lobby, and I explained to him that I was studying for my torts final while waiting to play a corporate gig. We chatted some more and he said he was really impressed that I was working so hard to put myself through law school. He was a really lovely, kind man. We talked about the bus he traveled in and he talked about how much fun he had, but that he also missed his family.

Somehow we got on the subject of our fathers and I was telling him what a huge Cowboy fan my Dad was and how much we teased each other during football season, especially during Cowboys/Washington games.

He started laughing and then asked me what time I started playing. Then he asked me if I wanted to meet some Cowboy players and get their autographs for my Dad. I had another hour before we played, so he said “ follow me.”

Unbeknownst to me, the Cowboys were staying in the same hotel. I walked with Mr. Madden into a private dining room/bar and there were all of these Cowboy players milling around. He asked me who my dad’s favorite player was and we set out to find Tony Dorsett and coach Tom Landry. Mr. Madden introduced me to both of them, telling them a little bit about me and how my Dad was a big fan. I got both of their autographs and actually spoke to Tony Dorsett for about 10 minutes. The only piece of paper that I had with me for him to sign was a receipt for the payment of my tuition that I had tucked inside my torts book. Both he and Mr. Madden laughed and he said he’d sign it but he didn’t want to be accidentally signing up to pay my tuition. He was also a really nice guy and lovely to talk to.

I stayed for a few more minutes and then told Mr. Madden that I needed to get back to the ballroom where we were playing, as it was getting close to the time we needed to start. He walked me back to the lobby, also signed my tuition receipt, and very kindly told me he was sure my Dad must be proud of me working so hard to put myself through law school. He reached out his hand to shake mine one last time. I thanked him profusely and wished him a Merry Christmas and safe travels.

Of course, when I got back to the ballroom to get ready to play, the guys in my band thought it was so cool that I met Mr. Madden and the Cowboy’s players. The next day, I went to my parent’s house, told them the story, and my Dad loved it. That pink tuition receipt with the autographs of Tom Landry, Tony Dorsett, and John Madden hung on the refrigerator door in the kitchen of their house for years afterward, attached by a Dallas Cowboy’s magnet.

Thank you John Madden for taking the time to encourage twenty-something me to follow my dreams and for doing something really nice for my Dad. It was a testament to what a genuinely kind and caring person you were. May you Rest In Peace dear sir. Xxoo

[seacoaster]

Great story YA. Thanks for sharing it.

[seacoaster]

Good one:

https://comment.org/building-trust-acro ... al-divide/

[NattyBohChamps04]

Enough moderate (R) Senators joined (D) Senators to pass BIB.
The same could have happened with segments of BBB, like CTC, had (D)'s not been all-or-nothing scorched earth,
& attacked Manchin & Sinema.

You mean the all-or-nothing scorched earth approach where D's compromised multiple times and scaled back the BBB bill to mollify Manchin and others?

Happens time and again. The D's compromise and compromise and the opposing sides move the goalposts backwards and then vote against. Saw it with the ACA. D's need to have the spine to pass the bold legislation that the public wants and widely approves of. We're certainly not getting it from R's.

[old salt]

Enough moderate (R) Senators joined (D) Senators to pass BIB.
The same could have happened with segments of BBB, like CTC, had (D)'s not been all-or-nothing scorched earth,
& attacked Manchin & Sinema.

You mean the all-or-nothing scorched earth approach where D's compromised multiple times and scaled back the BBB bill to mollify Manchin and others?

Happens time and again. The D's compromise and compromise and the opposing sides move the goalposts backwards and then vote against. Saw it with the ACA. D's need to have the spine to pass the bold legislation that the public wants and widely approves of. We're certainly not getting it from R's.

...you're aware Manchin is a (D) right ? He & Sinema are not the only (D) Senators who don't want BBB, they can oppose it because it helps them at home. Were it not for them, the (R)'s would control the Senate & BBB would never reach the floor. Your beef is with your fellow (D)'s.

BBB, even more so than ACA, is full of multi-trillion $ entitlements that will never end nor ever be reduced,
...funded by piling them on an already unsustainable deficit.

Fundamental obligations & changes to our society of this magnitude require the full legislative process, rather than gimmicks like reconciliation.

[tech37]

Enough moderate (R) Senators joined (D) Senators to pass BIB.
The same could have happened with segments of BBB, like CTC, had (D)'s not been all-or-nothing scorched earth,
& attacked Manchin & Sinema.

You mean the all-or-nothing scorched earth approach where D's compromised multiple times and scaled back the BBB bill to mollify Manchin and others?

Happens time and again. The D's compromise and compromise and the opposing sides move the goalposts backwards and then vote against. Saw it with the ACA. D's need to have the spine to pass the bold legislation that the public wants and widely approves of. We're certainly not getting it from R's.

...you're aware Manchin is a (D) right ? He & Sinema are not the only (D) Senators who don't want BBB, they can oppose it because it helps them at home. Were it not for them, the (R)'s would control the Senate & BBB would never reach the floor. Your beef is with your fellow (D)'s.

BBB, even more so than ACA, is full of multi-trillion $ entitlements that will never end nor ever be reduced,
...funded by piling them on an already unsustainable deficit.

Fundamental obligations & changes to our society of this magnitude require the full legislative process, rather than gimmicks like reconciliation.

Great post OS

[a fan]

Enough moderate (R) Senators joined (D) Senators to pass BIB.
The same could have happened with segments of BBB, like CTC, had (D)'s not been all-or-nothing scorched earth,
& attacked Manchin & Sinema.

You mean the all-or-nothing scorched earth approach where D's compromised multiple times and scaled back the BBB bill to mollify Manchin and others?

Happens time and again. The D's compromise and compromise and the opposing sides move the goalposts backwards and then vote against. Saw it with the ACA. D's need to have the spine to pass the bold legislation that the public wants and widely approves of. We're certainly not getting it from R's.

...you're aware Manchin is a (D) right ? He & Sinema are not the only (D) Senators who don't want BBB, they can oppose it because it helps them at home. Were it not for them, the (R)'s would control the Senate & BBB would never reach the floor. Your beef is with your fellow (D)'s.

BBB, even more so than ACA, is full of multi-trillion $ entitlements that will never end nor ever be reduced,
...funded by piling them on an already unsustainable deficit.

Fundamental obligations & changes to our society of this magnitude require the full legislative process, rather than gimmicks like reconciliation.

Great post OS

You two are lecturing the D's about unfunded spending?

Neat. Seem to remember having a few discussions with you two about overspending, and how tax cuts don't pay for themselves, and don't lead to sustained 4%+ GDP increases...because that's not how math works.

You two trying to break the Forum's record for irony, I suppose? Getting off to 2022 with a bang, guys?

Or are you both just kidding, and don't really care about spending or taxation?

[ardilla secreta]

Take a few minutes and read Peter King's story on his cross country trip with John Madden in late 1990. It's well worth your time

https://vault.si.com/vault/1990/11/26/b ... -on-wheels

Politicians and the rest of us could learn a LOT listening to John Madden ruminate on America. Fortunately for us, he lives on and we can/should still learn from what he said about so many things for all those years.

We should all take a few minutes and listen to John Madden talk about America...and all its regions and places that make it America.

If you missed the 1.5 hr doc on Madden on FS on Dec 25, now re-airing on NFL Network.

added broadcasts

Fox Sports announced the network will re-air its "All Madden" documentary "in honor of the incomparable coach, broadcaster, and leader." It will air on on FS1 Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. ET and 10:30 p.m. ET and on FOX on Thursday at 8:00 p.m. ET.

Having met John Madden in person - what you see is certainly what you get. The most modest yet insightful person I've ever met in the sports world...perhaps more so than even Muhammad Ali in many ways. Exception being that mostly Madden stuck to football whereas Ali did not stick to boxing.

From a friend of mine....

My John Madden story and why I think he was such a gem of a person:

It was a Saturday night in December in 1987. I was all dressed up to play at a fancy corporate Christmas party with my band (EDITED), sitting in the fancy but quiet hotel lobby. We had to be set up by 6pm, but we didn’t start playing until 9pm, so I was studying for one of my law school final exams while I had the time.

I was sitting on one of those big tufted circular sofas and I smelled cigar smoke when I absentmindedly waved my hand in front of my nose. Then I heard a voice say “is the smoke bothering you? I can move.” I looked in the direction of the voice and it belonged to John Madden. At first I was a little stunned. I was a huge Washington football fan and couldn’t believe one of my favorite commentators was standing in front of me. Then I said “no sir, I kind of like the smell. And oh my gosh, you’re John Madden.”

He laughed and reached out to shake my hand. I remember how large his hand was, completely wrapping my hand up in his. We started talking. He was staying at the hotel and was commentating the next day on the Washington/Cowboys game. He asked me why I was sitting alone in the lobby, and I explained to him that I was studying for my torts final while waiting to play a corporate gig. We chatted some more and he said he was really impressed that I was working so hard to put myself through law school. He was a really lovely, kind man. We talked about the bus he traveled in and he talked about how much fun he had, but that he also missed his family.

Somehow we got on the subject of our fathers and I was telling him what a huge Cowboy fan my Dad was and how much we teased each other during football season, especially during Cowboys/Washington games.

He started laughing and then asked me what time I started playing. Then he asked me if I wanted to meet some Cowboy players and get their autographs for my Dad. I had another hour before we played, so he said “ follow me.”

Unbeknownst to me, the Cowboys were staying in the same hotel. I walked with Mr. Madden into a private dining room/bar and there were all of these Cowboy players milling around. He asked me who my dad’s favorite player was and we set out to find Tony Dorsett and coach Tom Landry. Mr. Madden introduced me to both of them, telling them a little bit about me and how my Dad was a big fan. I got both of their autographs and actually spoke to Tony Dorsett for about 10 minutes. The only piece of paper that I had with me for him to sign was a receipt for the payment of my tuition that I had tucked inside my torts book. Both he and Mr. Madden laughed and he said he’d sign it but he didn’t want to be accidentally signing up to pay my tuition. He was also a really nice guy and lovely to talk to.

I stayed for a few more minutes and then told Mr. Madden that I needed to get back to the ballroom where we were playing, as it was getting close to the time we needed to start. He walked me back to the lobby, also signed my tuition receipt, and very kindly told me he was sure my Dad must be proud of me working so hard to put myself through law school. He reached out his hand to shake mine one last time. I thanked him profusely and wished him a Merry Christmas and safe travels.

Of course, when I got back to the ballroom to get ready to play, the guys in my band thought it was so cool that I met Mr. Madden and the Cowboy’s players. The next day, I went to my parent’s house, told them the story, and my Dad loved it. That pink tuition receipt with the autographs of Tom Landry, Tony Dorsett, and John Madden hung on the refrigerator door in the kitchen of their house for years afterward, attached by a Dallas Cowboy’s magnet.

Thank you John Madden for taking the time to encourage twenty-something me to follow my dreams and for doing something really nice for my Dad. It was a testament to what a genuinely kind and caring person you were. May you Rest In Peace dear sir. Xxoo

Having a dad that’s a Cowboy fan is like an alternative version of The Crying Game. Ewwww!

[old salt]

You two are lecturing the D's about unfunded spending?

Neat. Seem to remember having a few discussions with you two about overspending, and how tax cuts don't pay for themselves, and don't lead to sustained 4%+ GDP increases...because that's not how math works.

You two trying to break the Forum's record for irony, I suppose? Getting off to 2022 with a bang, guys?

Or are you both just kidding, and don't really care about spending or taxation?

Give it a rest. You're just trying to stifle legit open debate. tedious.

What massive permanent spending did (R)'s ram through, outside the regular legislative process, like the (D)'s did with ACA/reconciliation & are now trying to do with BBB ? So long as one party does not hold the WH, House, & 60 Senate seats, spending is bi-partisan.

If you want to restrain deficit spending, you'd oppose bypassing the normal Congressional process via gimmicks like reconciliation & stuffing so many spending programs into massive omnibus bills that members don't even know what they are voting for, let alone inform the citizens they represent.

I'm talking about spending, not post-Reagan tax cuts, which I opposed. Now, I want to keep the SALT caps & lower/eliminate other deductions.