Johns Hopkins 2020

[molo]

Maybe so, but lots of lax fans older than you have an outmoded view of Maryland relative to some of the schools you have mentioned. When I graduated from high school in 1967, Maryland was not so hard to get into if you were a Maryland resident. Graduating was a different matter. I was a school counselor for 40 years and often heard parents speak of Maryland as an attainable choice for their sons or daughters who were above average students. For the past 20 years, and especially for the past 10, Maryland residents have to be much better than good high school students to get into College Park. When I retired a couple of years ago, the average SAT scores in both critical reading and math were around 650, and the average gpa was 4.0 using Maryland's weighting system. Drawing from a state whose public schools consistently rank near the top of the country and whose household and per captita incomes are consistently in the top three in the country, Maryland is affordable and academically selective.
I hold no brief for Maryland as no one in my immediate family went there, but having seen some of the best high school students that I had the pleasure to work with in the past few decades, I feel obligated to point out that those who put down academics at Maryland are not aware of the place of Maryland--and most flagship state universities--in this century.
BTW, Maryland's weighting system, which was not a secret, awarded an extra point for letter grades in courses labelled Honors, AP, IB, Advanced College Prep, etc. In contrast, Baltimore County, where I worked, awarded an extra point for Honors grades of C to A, and two extra points for grades of C to A in AP, GT, and IB. I don't recall many regular students, that is, nonathletes, who got into Maryland with Cs during my last couple of years on the job.

[ABV 8.3%]

I don't think Tierney, Corrigan, Toomey, Danowski, etc. are good fits either. the point is that they built programs. The value that they created for their programs is clear and undisputed. Taking over a thriving business in a thriving market and watching it continue to make money doesn't necessarily speak to the greatness of a business owner. It speaks to the greatness of a situation. With this in mind, post-2010, what has Petro or Desko done to demonstrate their creating value? Keep in mind, we're heading into 2020. They've had 10 years since 2010. I get it. He's Petro. But when does nostalgia take a back seat to reality?

In terms of finding new coaches, they don't need someone to, so to speak, build a program. They need someone who understands the 2010 landscape, how to coach in 2010. Now, 2020. I believe that the right coach looks much more like Tillman and Tiffany (and how they relate to their players, relate to the game) and they do not look so much like Petro and Desko. JHU and SU are suffering. Yes, JHU will pick-up top players. As will SU. The JHU and SU brands are excellent. But it's not enough. They're getting some great players but they're not winning the recruiting game let alone the actual lacrosse games.

being completely serious. shock value, what a great recruiter (he hires Hopkins )
Bill BellicheckwritingsoontoNFL4cheating (NE Patriots Head coach for the nerds that infest this place

not you, matnumPi

[Matnum PI]

being completely serious. shock value, what a great recruiter (he hires Hopkins )
Bill BellicheckwritingsoontoNFL4cheating (NE Patriots Head coach for the nerds that infest this place

not you, matnumPi

i don't understand this...

[DocBarrister]

being completely serious. shock value, what a great recruiter (he hires Hopkins )
Bill BellicheckwritingsoontoNFL4cheating (NE Patriots Head coach for the nerds that infest this place

not you, matnumPi

i don't understand this...

That’s because it’s being typed by a “primate resident” in a basement laboratory of the NPRC in Covington, Louisiana. Long-running cognitive studies experiment ....

DocBarrister

[Matnum PI]

I assume even the most staunch JHU fan would agree that JHU has underperformed in the last decade. This being the case, besides Petro, where else does the fault lie?

[jhu06]

In terms of recruiting, I fully understand that this is isn't the best metric but it's not meaningless. In our Fantasy League Draft, we have a couple of coaches who aren't exemplar pickers but, overall, the picks are pretty good. Also, it's only players on the O side of the ball. For the D players, we pick "team D"s. With this said, there are 20 teams and the first JHU kid picked was the second to last pick in the 2nd round. Owen Murphy. The JHU D was picked 2 picks later. Both by a die hard JHU fan who doesn't necessarily vie for the crown. JHU didn't show it's face again until the middle of the 4th round, Jacob Angelus. Ian Krampf and Quinn Chambers in the middle of the 6th round. (Chambers being grabbed by the die hard fan.) And that's it. I dunno. Based on this, it's hard to praise Petro's recruiting skills. Again, this is far from a full proof metric but it seems odd that JHU had so few pieces of gold. Is this year's freshman class just not a stellar class? Or, maybe, just not stellar on the O side of the ball?

this is fantastic intense fandom.

I meet a lot of kids deciding between hopkins and not much aid and full or mostly rides from their local state school or pittsburgh and it's tough to look a kid in the eye and say this is that much better.

[FannOLax]

Of course some recruits are affected. But Hopkins was an expensive school in 2009. The economics of private vs. in-state tuition has not drastically changed. If you're looking for the changing variables that might explain why we're getting blown out in the first round of the playoffs, that's not the one. We know Hopkins is not for everyone—it never has been nor will be. Just as Duke is not for everyone and Yale is not for everyone.

Maryland is also not for everyone. For kids in-state, tuition is obviously one advantage it has. But that's just one element. I'd be confident wagering that we lose more recruits to Duke, Yale, UVA (out of state), Penn, Princeton, Michigan (out of state), and Notre Dame than we do to Maryland.

This discussion needs mention of financial aid based on need. The Ivies have done well in this regard. I would imagine imagine that Bloomberg's largesse will have improved JHU's financial-aid packages... and I believe that Hopkins has the 12.6 scholarships that the Ivies don't. State schools UVa, Maryland and North Carolina have recently won national titles, but then so have expensive private schools Yale and Duke.

[OCanada]

I don’t think the fault lies with Petro. Circumstances and the game changed. Bill Tierney left Princeton when personnel changed outside the athletic department meant he could get the kids he wanted in, I don’t recall when performance dropped off after those changes anyone questioning his coaching ability. Danowski was at risk at Hofstra because they were unhappy with his results. He could always coach. A bunch of old grads err unhappy with Richie Meade and forced a change. That was not productive either. It seems almost like a cliche but circumstances have a lot to do wlth success. Books have been written on it.

Hopkins is not getting the best players on average any more. I think we all agree on that or at least most of us. You don’t win titles if you don’t have the athletes. There are the occasional flukes but seldom

So reasons.

Finances. The private schools without big endowments have bern unable to maintain the level of success they had in the past. I am pointing to Cuse and Hopkins. If you get a 1/4 scholarship at Hopkins your family still has to come up with 56,000 or so. Hopkins until the MB gift was short of needed financial aid and was having to take kids whose parents could afford to pay. They were losing kids they wanted. A priority was for academics over athletes. Parents of kids who went elsewhere would tell be they didn’t want to pay the difference over another school because the IRR wasn’t there anymore. Grad school has become the more important factor.

Jerry Schnydman - Jerry was for decades the Exec Asst to the President and would carry water if the staff believed a kid could make it through Hopkins. Jerry retired many years ago

The President - Bill retired many years ago. Eisenhower, Muller were all believers in the program. Other schools would roll out a coach or athlete Hopkins would roll out the President. No other school would do that and these people were impressive. Now at best they see the AD. The administration’s support that was historically there has been significantly diluted.

The spread of talent. Bob Scott told me when he was leading the charge for an NCAA tourney for lax with a few other coaches, that in time Hopkins should be competitive but would no longer dominate the sport. He also noted is the SEC and PAC jumped in everyone would be threatened.

Athletic program: Hopkins isn’t a big time athletic school. A lot of kids want the big time FB or BB experience. Hopkins doesn’t offer it.

What schools have risen to the top? Conferences with major athletic programs and the Ivies with big endowments or other advantages. State schools that can offer in state solution. Schools with large financial aid packages available also benefit.

Hopkins has a relatively smaller recruitment base than it’s competitors when you factor in finances, academic requirements, effort required to stay in school once accepted etc. Two Princeton players who became AA and will eventually be HOFers said they went to Princeton because it would be easier to stay in.

Right fit. Hopkins aside from sports is not for everyone and is right for fewer than most. It’s the nature of the school. It was founded as a research university. It’s not a place to go and figure out what you want to do next. Many of the students have already made that decision even if they ultimately change their mind. I went but sometimes wonder if it was the right decision or whether I should have gone to Princeton or West Point.

Changes in strategy by some schools. Some Ivies have told potential recruits to accept an offer from their next choice and if they get accepted through their process they can then flip.

Duke had become an established program before Danowski. He took a program that had been tarnished in the public eye and improved it. He was always a great coach but unable to keep players on LI and for that was going to be let go. He couldn’t get the players. It wasn’t that he couldn’t coach.

Corrigan wanted desperately to leave ND for years and go to VA. ND was not fully funding the program. Once they did they rose. He could always coach but without a fully funded program he wasn’t able to compete at the highest level. ND is A destination school like VA, Duke etc. great athletic tradition. Iconic

[Sagittarius A*]

No school gets all the players they want. Petro has talent but he lets a lot of it languish on the bench. This has been a problem for years. He let a UA AA goalie ride the pine last year while his starter struggled. He played ssdms that NO ONE ELSE would have played. Guys that couldn’t cover and made stupid penalties. Jesus. Take one of your poles and give him a short stick. Coach recruits well. His team fails because he makes bad coaching decisions. The defense was horrific but he failed to make in season adjustments. Enough is enough. Now he’s on the hot seat where he belongs.

[MDlaxfan76]

Just addressing a couple of points of OC's well reasoned set of factors.

Yes, (as some of us predicted/reported in real time) Ivies adapted to the earlier and earlier recruiting commitments by telling kids to go ahead and 'commit' and flip when their process was completed. This didn't actually occur in large #'s, but a few key players year after year.

Note, this was in reaction to the super early recruiting.
Not to belabor this, but Petro was one of the three guys who led the charge ever earlier.
IMO, that was disastrous for Hopkins.

The Ivies didn't suddenly have money and financial aid, that well preceded the stupidity of ER.
Tierney accomplished what he did at PU because (other than being an excellent tactician/strategist and talent manager) because the AD and institution gave him a wider AI than his predecessors (at the cost of other male teams). When a new AD and President came in that changed and Tierney moved to DU where he was given carte blanche in a nearly green field situation.

Yale has accomplished their success by a long term, extremely well-funded commitment to coaching and program capabilities. Strong support from admissions built over the years, but not the level of AI latitude PU gave Tierney (far as I know). Yale's program built that momentum and now has it.

Hopkins now has both athletic dollars AND very generous need based aid...I'm not sure how that will all overlap, but Hopkins is not at a disadvantage.

Last, I believe Hopkins is an "iconic" program.
But it has lost its momentum.

Now, that could all be reversed with a string of successful years.
Will they happen under Petro?
Remains to be seen.

[HopFan16]

Right fit. Hopkins aside from sports is not for everyone and is right for fewer than most. It’s the nature of the school. It was founded as a research university. It’s not a place to go and figure out what you want to do next. Many of the students have already made that decision even if they ultimately change their mind. I went but sometimes wonder if it was the right decision or whether I should have gone to Princeton or West Point.

This is a generalization that strikes me as quite untrue. That was exactly what JHU was for me and several others I knew. Everyone goes to college with some vague idea of what they're interested in and what they might eventually want to major in. But Hopkins absolutely provides room for exploration and discovering your passions. Outside of some of the pre-med kids who had known they wanted to be doctors essentially since birth, most people I knew did not know exactly what they wanted their careers to look like before coming to Hopkins. (Even within pre-med, there are so many different options.) I find that statements like this one perpetuate an unhelpful stereotype about the school that's completely false today. Maybe it was the case when you were a student, but it's most certainly not anymore.

[molo]

Sad news for Hopkins fans as Susan Ciccarrone, wife of the late Henry Ciccarone and mother of Hopkins players Henry J.R., Brent, John, and Steve has died according to this morning’s Sun.

[Matnum PI]

Hop, agreed. It's like the NYer who says, NY is better! We have 647 high schools! When, in the end, how many high schools do you need? Obviously you want options but you only go to one high school. There's the general, overall statistic and then there's the practical. And, for an education (and much more), the practical is much more important. JHU does hold research in high regard and... It has good liberal arts courses. With this said...

If you told me that, head-to-head with Duke, High Point struggles to get the blue chip recruits, I'd understand it. And, I also understand why highly touted recruited, Joe Bag O'Donuts prefers UVA over JHU, I also understand it. Some prefer vanilla, some prefer chocolate. But when highly touted recruits, one after another, prefer UVA, UMD, Denver, Notre Dame, Yale, UNC and more over JHU (and SU), then I start to scratch my head. I 100% understand why the blue chippers went to UVA, UNC, SU, JHU, and Princeton decades ago. But in 2020, it doesn't make sense that JHU (and SU) aren't heavily in the mix, are second tier. I guess it's a snowball situation. When a team doesn't play well in a given season, it drops in the eyes of potential recruits.

PS RIP

[HopFan16]

If you told me that, head-to-head with Duke, High Point struggles to get the blue chip recruits, I'd understand it. And, I also understand why highly touted recruited, Joe Bag O'Donuts prefers UVA over JHU, I also understand it. Some prefer vanilla, some prefer chocolate. But when highly touted recruits, one after another, prefer UVA, UMD, Denver, Notre Dame, Yale, UNC and more over JHU (and SU), then I start to scratch my head. I 100% understand why the blue chippers went to UVA, UNC, SU, JHU, and Princeton decades ago. But in 2020, it doesn't make sense that JHU (and SU) aren't heavily in the mix, are second tier. I guess it's a snowball situation. When a team doesn't play well in a given season, it drops in the eyes of potential recruits.

Do you put zero stock in the recruiting rankings? If so, that's fine. But they don't simply reveal the opinions of their creators. They also reflect the amount of interest from schools each recruit is getting. It's obviously not an exact science but the more interest from top schools a kid gets, the higher in the rankings he'll likely end up.

I'm struggling a bit with what you mean by "highly touted recruits" if not the rankings and/or how many top D1 offers they're getting. That, to me, is what highly touted means. And Hopkins is doing a lot better than you are giving them credit for in terms of those kinds of recruits. They are ranked in the top 5 basically every year. They have a shot at being #1 in both 2020 and 2021. (Have those rankings directly translated to Final Fours? Sadly not. But that's another discussion.) For the most part, these are the most highly touted kids. "One after the other" of them are not going to all those other schools. Petro is more than holding his own in that respect. Hopkins gets more "blue chippers" than most of those schools—it's close with UVA and UNC.

[Matnum PI]

I put stock in recruiting rankings. And I also put stock in regional honors, All-American honors, posts within our forum, etc.

Hopkins gets more "blue chippers" than most of those schools—it's close with UVA and UNC.

I don't see this. Pick a year and I'll show you what I mean.

[ABV 8.3%]

being completely serious. shock value, what a great recruiter (he hires Hopkins )
Bill BellicheckwritingsoontoNFL4cheating (NE Patriots Head coach for the nerds that infest this place

not you, matnumPi

i don't understand this...

That makes three of us

I am not joking, I think New England Patriots Head football coach Bill Belichick should be the next head coach of the men's lacrosse team, especially after anti-gun Bloomie arms the Hopkins deputy dewrights. A 4 year contract. You trying to tell me Bill recruiting your son will be hard ?

[Matnum PI]

100% agree. JHU wouldn't be the first premier lacrosse program to grab someone from outside the traditional channels. Especially for a sport like lacrosse, i think this would work. JHU is too inside-the-box and finding a coach using an outside-the-box method will go a long way.

[MDlaxfan76]

Right fit. Hopkins aside from sports is not for everyone and is right for fewer than most. It’s the nature of the school. It was founded as a research university. It’s not a place to go and figure out what you want to do next. Many of the students have already made that decision even if they ultimately change their mind. I went but sometimes wonder if it was the right decision or whether I should have gone to Princeton or West Point.

This is a generalization that strikes me as quite untrue. That was exactly what JHU was for me and several others I knew. Everyone goes to college with some vague idea of what they're interested in and what they might eventually want to major in. But Hopkins absolutely provides room for exploration and discovering your passions. Outside of some of the pre-med kids who had known they wanted to be doctors essentially since birth, most people I knew did not know exactly what they wanted their careers to look like before coming to Hopkins. (Even within pre-med, there are so many different options.) I find that statements like this one perpetuate an unhelpful stereotype about the school that's completely false today. Maybe it was the case when you were a student, but it's most certainly not anymore.

It might be better said that Hopkins is an excellent place to go if you are serious about learning, including determining one's future course. It is not as well suited as some less demanding colleges for doing such consideration in a fraternity basement, though, presumably not without such opportunities as well!

I regularly guest lecture at Hopkins, both undergrad and grad, and certainly my sense is that the students are serious and motivated. Those I come into contact with do have some sense of their direction, areas of interest, in all likelihood correlated with their degree of prior high school (or college) effort. Which has to have been high in order to gain admission. Maybe there are a few athletes or big donor legacy types who don't fit that mold in the undergrad program, but they would not be the bulk of students for sure.

I see that as a positive, not a negative.

[wgdsr]

wdgsr I like most of the time
right back at you, ocanada. the quirkiness is a bonus. all of which makes your comments re: uva, starsia etc. over the years all the more perplexing.
But his post represents exactly what he is complaining about.

He doesn’t think anyone knows anything about the situation there at the time and certainly doesn’t want it talked about.
this is patently untrue, across the board. quite the opposite, in fact. i have only anywhere suggested that people who have no idea what they're talking about refrain from making defamatory posts. particularly when it's unnecessary and... inaccurate. it's about as sensitive a subject as possible, most particularly to those that are/were not university asssociated. it's also an ironic statement given your replies to folks speculating on the inner workings of hopkins, the coach's mindset, etc. including very recently.
I used to text williewahoo from the time he was in HS.
i have no idea what this means, but it is hilarious to picture nonetheless.
I tried to avoid getting into the weeds on it. If I had to write it over again I would change it to one reason. Why would AD asked for the resignation but have the request refused if VA was going to retain him?
i'm confused by the wording of this, don't really know what it's asking.
As to the post slander is spoken not written. Everything he wrote is unsubstantiated and innuendo
actually, quite a bit of it is substantiated. just a small bit of homework, and you don't have to go to the library of congress any longer. it's at your fingertips. there is more info for insiders, but there's plenty enough to go on if you feel like a subject you must share info on.
the short story is "the lawsuit" was filed in 2012, and less than one year later in april of 2013 it was dropped. starsia continued to coach the team until the end of the 2016 season. that is over 3 years after the lawsuit was no longer in existence, and fully 6 years since 2010.
other lawsuits remained (one was dropped briefly more recently and put back on a short time later), against other parties.

[wgdsr]

I don't think the moderation of this site is likely to be the same as LP.
Topics are going to be much more openly discussed, opinions stated, with less concern about protecting certain coaches from critique (and not others).

It's a discussion forum, not a journalistic endeavor.
I think that's a good thing, however we need to be mindful that what is put forward by anonymous posters may or not have credibility.

MD, you're spot on. There's a limit to how far a post-er can go with innuendo and otherwise and... I don't feel comfortable deleting a post-ers opinion about why a coach was fired. Even if it is seemingly unsubstantiated. It's the nature of a forum. Just one man's opinion. Taken out of context, the post is awful. But within a thread, especially a thread where others are refuting the claim, I think it's appropriate to leave it and, in the name of facilitating discussions, discussions being the heart of a forum, inappropriate to delete it.

certainly i can do a better job of inserting the unwritten "in my opinion" to user's posts as i read them. even when on multiple occasions it doesn't read that way, but rather some sort of factual conclusion. even when those facts are wrong. and verifiably wrong.
in this instance, my preference is to not have to go into a reason, several or however many explanations -- as it is about the most sensitive topic possible. having it argued and posted again and again (which i typically try to leave alone until it looks like the assertions will just keep coming) isn't desirable.
so yeah. it is awful. imo. not taken out of any type of context.
given the above, it actually doesn't seem like there is a limit to how far a poster can go with innuendo and otherwise. your site, i guess.
so guess will have to take option #2 on the occasion.