LaxPower Back-Up Stick

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:17 pm If Trump is impeached by the House before he leaves office, but not convicted by the Senate until after he leaves office, can he still be barred from holding future office ? Would SCOTUS find that Constitutional ? Would there be due process questions if precedent is not followed with full House hearings & a Senate trial ? If they do it, they need to make it stick & drive a stake through his heart, so there's no question that he can't run again.

It's not worth doing just for political purposes. It will be very risky. After this past week, the country's ready to blow apart.

?

I answered or tried to answer most of those questions in my post which preceded yours.

As to due process, actually the president technically has no due process rights under the constitution in impeachment proceedings. Given that due process, though, is such an integral part of our society, I expect some measure of due process would be applied. But how much will be up to the Senate, and not reviewable by a court.

The only way, in my view, to make 100% sure he can't ever run again would be to impeach, convict, and disqualify before Jan. 20. I suspect if they convict and disqualify after Jan. 20, that that would stick, though T**** might be able to get a court to hear whether the Senate can constitutionally convict him after he's left office. As a practical matter, I think the case is most likely to come up in the context of disqualify only after Jan. 20.

Yes, there is a risk. But T**** doesn't get to control what is done and not done simply because he tried to institute a revolution. Should Lincoln have simply let the South secede?

I think it is important that the Congress make clear to any future president that conduct like this will result in impeachment, removal, and disqualification. We simply can't have the president trying to overthrow the government. Would seem to go without saying.

njbill wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:17 pm If Trump is impeached by the House before he leaves office, but not convicted by the Senate until after he leaves office, can he still be barred from holding future office ? Would SCOTUS find that Constitutional ? Would there be due process questions if precedent is not followed with full House hearings & a Senate trial ? If they do it, they need to make it stick & drive a stake through his heart, so there's no question that he can't run again.

It's not worth doing just for political purposes. It will be very risky. After this past week, the country's ready to blow apart.

?

I answered or tried to answer most of those questions in my post which preceded yours.

As to due process, actually the president technically has no due process rights under the constitution in impeachment proceedings. Given that due process, though, is such an integral part of our society, I expect some measure of due process would be applied. But how much will be up to the Senate, and not reviewable by a court.

The only way, in my view, to make 100% sure he can't ever run again would be to impeach, convict, and disqualify before Jan. 20. I suspect if they convict and disqualify after Jan. 20, that that would stick, though T**** might be able to get a court to hear whether the Senate can constitutionally convict him after he's left office. As a practical matter, I think the case is most likely to come up in the context of disqualify only after Jan. 20.

Yes, there is a risk. But T**** doesn't get to control what is done and not done simply because he tried to institute a revolution. Should Lincoln have simply let the South secede?

I think it is important that the Congress make clear to any future president that conduct like this will result in impeachment, removal, and disqualification. We simply can't have the president trying to overthrow the government. Would seem to go without saying.

I wonder why Old Salt doesn’t reference this as a coup attempt?

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:32 pm Trump’s call is still a crime, even if he believes his own fraud fantasies

Intent matters, but you can’t avoid liability by deciding you live in an alternate reality



By Trevor Potter and Mark Gaber
Jan. 5, 2021 at 2:21 p.m. EST

President Trump’s call demanding Georgia officials “find 11,780 votes” and reverse the election results in the state was his most brazen abuse of power yet. If Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger didn’t go along with Trump’s scheme and “recalculate” the vote, the president warned, “it’s going to be very costly in many ways,” threatening that Georgia authorities were committing a “criminal offense” by not endorsing Trump’s false voter fraud claims. The president’s conduct violates the letter and spirit of federal and Georgia criminal laws prohibiting attempts to procure false election results and to solicit election fraud.

Since then, some experts have raised questions about whether Trump’s attempted bullying can be prosecuted because of a possible lack of “intent.” The thought is: If the president truly believes the false allegations he is spreading, then his req...

Intent always matters. Tactically, the bigger question is can intent be proven, which I think is more when it becomes less relevant in the prosecution decision.

I’ve always been an “act(tion)” person since reading The Fall by Albert Camus in HS but that doesn’t suggest one ignore intent.

Another one that’s interesting in the context of our politicians, Trump and some folks around these boards:

Mother Night - Kurt Vonnegut (and perhaps one of the best movie adaptations of a book of any author)
-Premise is an american guy living in Germany who’s a playwright married to the daughter of a top General in the Nazi army during the early war years is recruited by an American agent to be a spy. He does this by become the greatest propagandist in Germany on radio. He is relocated to the Us after the war but the balance of book considers whether he did “good” or “bad” as he didn’t know what or how he was helping the Us. Turns out it was hidden messages in the copy text he would read that sent messages back to the US including one letting his handler know his wife had died. Before leaving for the Us he sees his father in law after the war is over and his FIL tells him how he never liked him, didn’t trust him and wondered if he was working against Germany but in the end it didn’t matter because his work as a master propagandist (in guise of being a US spy) did so much to coalesce the people of Germany around the cause that it was far more valuable than anything he could’ve done for the US.

That story is related to all of this.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:51 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044

Wonder if Big Ricky will tell him to wear the Bull hat when he’s make sweet love to Mr Jake.

“Nah, Nah dawg. Leave the animal hat on cause I’m gonna beat the breaks off that a** like an animal.”

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:09 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:51 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044

Wonder if Big Ricky will tell him to wear the Bull hat when he’s make sweet love to Mr Jake.

“Nah, Nah dawg. Leave the animal hat on cause I’m gonna beat the breaks off that a** like an animal.”

Yep...

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:51 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044

This guy looks like he had borrowed Raquel Welch’s outfit from 100 million years BC.

Noticed how he used a spear as a flag pole? Genius. His IQ has to be at least 50.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:49 pm

njbill wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:17 pm If Trump is impeached by the House before he leaves office, but not convicted by the Senate until after he leaves office, can he still be barred from holding future office ? Would SCOTUS find that Constitutional ? Would there be due process questions if precedent is not followed with full House hearings & a Senate trial ? If they do it, they need to make it stick & drive a stake through his heart, so there's no question that he can't run again.

It's not worth doing just for political purposes. It will be very risky. After this past week, the country's ready to blow apart.

?

I answered or tried to answer most of those questions in my post which preceded yours.

As to due process, actually the president technically has no due process rights under the constitution in impeachment proceedings. Given that due process, though, is such an integral part of our society, I expect some measure of due process would be applied. But how much will be up to the Senate, and not reviewable by a court.

The only way, in my view, to make 100% sure he can't ever run again would be to impeach, convict, and disqualify before Jan. 20. I suspect if they convict and disqualify after Jan. 20, that that would stick, though T**** might be able to get a court to hear whether the Senate can constitutionally convict him after he's left office. As a practical matter, I think the case is most likely to come up in the context of disqualify only after Jan. 20.

Yes, there is a risk. But T**** doesn't get to control what is done and not done simply because he tried to institute a revolution. Should Lincoln have simply let the South secede?

I think it is important that the Congress make clear to any future president that conduct like this will result in impeachment, removal, and disqualification. We simply can't have the president trying to overthrow the government. Would seem to go without saying.

I wonder why Old Salt doesn’t reference this as a coup attempt?

Not well organized enough to be a coup. What was the plan ? It was doomed to fail. If it was a coup, they'd seize the WH or Pentagon, before breaking into the Capitol. What was the plan once they got inside the Capitol ? It was an irrational display of anger.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:47 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:49 pm

njbill wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:17 pm If Trump is impeached by the House before he leaves office, but not convicted by the Senate until after he leaves office, can he still be barred from holding future office ? Would SCOTUS find that Constitutional ? Would there be due process questions if precedent is not followed with full House hearings & a Senate trial ? If they do it, they need to make it stick & drive a stake through his heart, so there's no question that he can't run again.

It's not worth doing just for political purposes. It will be very risky. After this past week, the country's ready to blow apart.

?

I answered or tried to answer most of those questions in my post which preceded yours.

As to due process, actually the president technically has no due process rights under the constitution in impeachment proceedings. Given that due process, though, is such an integral part of our society, I expect some measure of due process would be applied. But how much will be up to the Senate, and not reviewable by a court.

The only way, in my view, to make 100% sure he can't ever run again would be to impeach, convict, and disqualify before Jan. 20. I suspect if they convict and disqualify after Jan. 20, that that would stick, though T**** might be able to get a court to hear whether the Senate can constitutionally convict him after he's left office. As a practical matter, I think the case is most likely to come up in the context of disqualify only after Jan. 20.

Yes, there is a risk. But T**** doesn't get to control what is done and not done simply because he tried to institute a revolution. Should Lincoln have simply let the South secede?

I think it is important that the Congress make clear to any future president that conduct like this will result in impeachment, removal, and disqualification. We simply can't have the president trying to overthrow the government. Would seem to go without saying.

I wonder why Old Salt doesn’t reference this as a coup attempt?

Not well organized enough. What was the plan ? It was doomed to fail.

Dooming to fail isn’t an excuse to let it slide. This is worse than Benghazi. 5 people killed because of events at the US Capitol. Security should have been hardened. Who knew and when?

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:47 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:49 pm

njbill wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:17 pm If Trump is impeached by the House before he leaves office, but not convicted by the Senate until after he leaves office, can he still be barred from holding future office ? Would SCOTUS find that Constitutional ? Would there be due process questions if precedent is not followed with full House hearings & a Senate trial ? If they do it, they need to make it stick & drive a stake through his heart, so there's no question that he can't run again.

It's not worth doing just for political purposes. It will be very risky. After this past week, the country's ready to blow apart.

?

I answered or tried to answer most of those questions in my post which preceded yours.

As to due process, actually the president technically has no due process rights under the constitution in impeachment proceedings. Given that due process, though, is such an integral part of our society, I expect some measure of due process would be applied. But how much will be up to the Senate, and not reviewable by a court.

The only way, in my view, to make 100% sure he can't ever run again would be to impeach, convict, and disqualify before Jan. 20. I suspect if they convict and disqualify after Jan. 20, that that would stick, though T**** might be able to get a court to hear whether the Senate can constitutionally convict him after he's left office. As a practical matter, I think the case is most likely to come up in the context of disqualify only after Jan. 20.

Yes, there is a risk. But T**** doesn't get to control what is done and not done simply because he tried to institute a revolution. Should Lincoln have simply let the South secede?

I think it is important that the Congress make clear to any future president that conduct like this will result in impeachment, removal, and disqualification. We simply can't have the president trying to overthrow the government. Would seem to go without saying.

I wonder why Old Salt doesn’t reference this as a coup attempt?

Not well organized enough. What was the plan ? It was doomed to fail.

Dooming to fail isn’t an excuse to let it slide. This is worse than Benghazi. 5 people killed because of events at the US Capitol. Security should have been hardened. Who knew and when?

Who's saying let it slide ? Go after them hard. Don't credit them with being smart enough to have a coherent plan. If it was AQ, they'd still be holding the Capitol with hostages. No question it was as big a screw up as Benghazi. Just different...& nobody's lying about what happened & why.

Police departments have decided it might be a good idea to weed out their Trumpnista, especially those who attended the riot.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:52 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:47 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:49 pm

njbill wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:42 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:17 pm If Trump is impeached by the House before he leaves office, but not convicted by the Senate until after he leaves office, can he still be barred from holding future office ? Would SCOTUS find that Constitutional ? Would there be due process questions if precedent is not followed with full House hearings & a Senate trial ? If they do it, they need to make it stick & drive a stake through his heart, so there's no question that he can't run again.

It's not worth doing just for political purposes. It will be very risky. After this past week, the country's ready to blow apart.

?

I answered or tried to answer most of those questions in my post which preceded yours.

As to due process, actually the president technically has no due process rights under the constitution in impeachment proceedings. Given that due process, though, is such an integral part of our society, I expect some measure of due process would be applied. But how much will be up to the Senate, and not reviewable by a court.

The only way, in my view, to make 100% sure he can't ever run again would be to impeach, convict, and disqualify before Jan. 20. I suspect if they convict and disqualify after Jan. 20, that that would stick, though T**** might be able to get a court to hear whether the Senate can constitutionally convict him after he's left office. As a practical matter, I think the case is most likely to come up in the context of disqualify only after Jan. 20.

Yes, there is a risk. But T**** doesn't get to control what is done and not done simply because he tried to institute a revolution. Should Lincoln have simply let the South secede?

I think it is important that the Congress make clear to any future president that conduct like this will result in impeachment, removal, and disqualification. We simply can't have the president trying to overthrow the government. Would seem to go without saying.

I wonder why Old Salt doesn’t reference this as a coup attempt?

Not well organized enough. What was the plan ? It was doomed to fail.

Dooming to fail isn’t an excuse to let it slide. This is worse than Benghazi. 5 people killed because of events at the US Capitol. Security should have been hardened. Who knew and when?

Who's saying let it slide ? Go after them hard. Don't credit them with being smart enough to have a coherent plan. If it was AQ, they'd still be holding the Capitol with hostages. No question it was as big a screw up as Benghazi. Just different...& nobody's lying about what happened & why.

Those clowns may have been pawns. Let’s find out if any officials had a hair brained plan. It’s worth investigating. This is more important than Benghazi.

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:52 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:47 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:49 pm
I wonder why Old Salt doesn’t reference this as a coup attempt?

Not well organized enough. What was the plan ? It was doomed to fail.

Dooming to fail isn’t an excuse to let it slide. This is worse than Benghazi. 5 people killed because of events at the US Capitol. Security should have been hardened. Who knew and when?

Who's saying let it slide ? Go after them hard. Don't credit them with being smart enough to have a coherent plan. If it was AQ, they'd still be holding the Capitol with hostages. No question it was as big a screw up as Benghazi. Just different...& nobody's lying about what happened & why.

...& before the scapegoating starts, be advised that DoD does not domestic intel. Another FBI Intel success.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:54 pm Police departments have decided it might be a good idea to weed out their Trumpnista, especially those who attended the riot.

There is nothing wrong with being a White Nationalists. Don’t ask don’t tell.

A YouGov poll claims ~50% of republicans blame what happened on Joe Biden. These people are seriously mentally deranged. It is difficult to try to find common ground with people that are so deep into their fantasies. They are still having their heads filled with shiit by some republicans and the right wing media and reinforcing amongst themselves. This number has to come down a lot before there will be any chance of avoiding more bloodshed, mostly their own.

njbill wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:38 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:51 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044

This guy looks like he had borrowed Raquel Welch’s outfit from 100 million years BC.

Noticed how he used a spear as a flag pole? Genius. His IQ has to be at least 50.

I'm so tired of these degenerates marching in parades, wearing no shirts, waving colorful flags and pushing their beliefs on the rest of us. How am I going to explain it to my kids?

Republicans Are Calling For “Unity” After They Voted To Try To Overturn The Election Following The Deadly Capitol Attack

Because of course they are.

Unity means deradicalizing and eliminating the fascist element of the Republican wing, jailing people for their crimes and not letting this wound fester and infect the rest of the nation like it has in numerous other nations in the past.

We're a country that has relied on norms for two and a half centuries in addition to laws. Because if those norms were broken 250 years ago, you got called out in a duel. Nowadays, norms and now laws are being broken and people aren't being held accountable. Now, we are at the precipice. At the very least, at the very minimum, we need a DOJ that will enforce the laws on the books.

We don't need unity, we need the law enforced. And we need the norms codified.

holmes435 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:53 pm Republicans Are Calling For “Unity” After They Voted To Try To Overturn The Election Following The Deadly Capitol Attack

Because of course they are.

Unity means deradicalizing and eliminating the fascist element of the Republican wing, jailing people for their crimes and not letting this wound fester and infect the rest of the nation like it has in numerous other nations in the past.

We're a country that has relied on norms for two and a half centuries in addition to laws. Because if those norms were broken 250 years ago, you got called out in a duel. Nowadays, norms and now laws are being broken and people aren't being held accountable. Now, we are at the precipice. At the very least, at the very minimum, we need a DOJ that will enforce the laws on the books.

We don't need unity, we need the law enforced. And we need the norms codified.

... their idea of unity is pretty funny. They are in a very bad place - individually and don't want to be forced to have to take a stand, a recorded vote on choosing between Trump and the constitution. Pelosi isn't going to go for it. I doubt Biden will try to reel her in. Pelosi gave them a way out, a couple of choices and time to make the decision before she files articles of impeachment. She didn't immediately go for taking political advantage, but that likely ends EOB Monday. Still the only thing republicans are worried about is keeping their jobs, not pissing off their unreasonable bass. This impeachment is very likely to split the party significantly.

holmes435 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:46 pm

njbill wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:38 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:51 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55606044

This guy looks like he had borrowed Raquel Welch’s outfit from 100 million years BC.

Noticed how he used a spear as a flag pole? Genius. His IQ has to be at least 50.

I'm so tired of these degenerates marching in parades, wearing no shirts, waving colorful flags and pushing their beliefs on the rest of us. How am I going to explain it to my kids?

.... this guy actually called the FBI and turned himself in. Guess he is looking to cop a plea.

My guess is lots and lots of these guys are going to sing.