THE 2019 Hopkins Lacrosse Fallout Shelter (44, we want more!)

[ohmilax34]

Of course, the question can be turned around on a fan. If Hopkins has academic, location, tuition, etc. issues that make the program unable to compete at the necessary level* what is Syracuse's excuse. Some of the excuses used for Hopkins, SU doesn't have.

Costs - SU is cheaper

Yes. It's cheaper than Hopkins. Problem is, UNC is cheaper still... even for out of state students. $10K cheaper.

In State Maryland students can get four bachelor's degrees for one degree from Cuse or Hop, and have money left over for a heckuva a lot of beer. If you boys think that's a non issue, I just don't even know what to say....

As for Syracuse, I'm not looking for excuses. I lowered my expectations as a fan. And now the games are sooo much more fun to watch.

For both Syracuse and Hopkins, the margin for recruiting is razor thin. So when they get an Evans instead of a Rambo, they're going to miss Final Fours and playoffs altogether. Just like the rest of D1.

And when Desko and Petro recruit correctly, and get a Donahue and Rice, or two Stanwicks and a Brown? Hey, how about that...they make the Final Four just fine. This is a painfully simple game. Recruiting comes down to luck more often than not. Personally, I think UMd has more bites at the apple in the post '08 crash America and that $9K tuition. If you disagree, hey, that's cool.

As for Petro, I don't see how you can look at the players on the field, watch other games, and say that they have even top ten talent. Frankly, it's not even close. They don't have one single kid in the top 30 in scoring, and folks want to put that on the x's and o's of Benson? Is Benson telling them to shoot poorly? Is Quinn telling your keeper to not stop shots from 15 yards out?

I just disagree that the issue is coaching. We'll find out soon enough, when you get a new coach at the end of Petro's contract.

Meanwhile, in Syracuse, no one is talking about removing Desko. He's doing a fine job given the reality of SU, and I don't think a new coach would recruit better.

We're just throwing around opinions here. Who knows who is right? I know I don't. Best of luck the rest of the season.

I agree with you for pretty much everything except the bolded part. I'm not saying there are available coaches who would do better than the JHU coaches, but Cole Williams is a very talented player and had a good year last year. He's been under performing. Desimone had 18 points as a freshman midfielder and is under performing. On the other hand, Epstein is having a very good freshman season. Those are 3 very talented players. Add in Marr and it seems like it should be a pretty potent offense. Why isn't it?

[HopFan16]

I agree with you for pretty much everything except the bolded part. I'm not saying there are available coaches who would do better than the JHU coaches, but Cole Williams is a very talented player and had a good year last year. He's been under performing. Desimone had 18 points as a freshman midfielder and is under performing. On the other hand, Epstein is having a very good freshman season. Those are 3 very talented players. Add in Marr and it seems like it should be a pretty potent offense. Why isn't it?

Bingo. Players generally shouldn't regress in their sophomore/junior seasons. When's the last time a player got demonstrably worse after a huge breakout campaign at Maryland or Duke or Loyola or Yale? This goes back to player development, which is a coaching issue, but not recruiting related.

You are getting caught up on some sort of dumbass semantics.
You need to be focusing on UMd, not the recruit.
Please, just switch "late recruit" for "late addition to Maryland's recruiting class", then reread my post.

I think 16 is trying to distinguish between "kids who had early offers (from somebody)", regardless of whether they stuck with that initial offer or not, versus "kids who weren't made an offer (by anybody) until late in the process."

Exactly. It's not semantics. Maryland doesn't get points because Heacock decided last minute to switch his commitment to them. Not all "late additions to a class" are created equal. Cooter can use whatever language he wants but it doesn't change the fact that Heacock's commitment was fundamentally different from the rest and doesn't belong grouped with the others.

As for Petro, I don't see how you can look at the players on the field, watch other games, and say that they have even top ten talent. Frankly, it's not even close. They don't have one single kid in the top 30 in scoring, and folks want to put that on the x's and o's of Benson? Is Benson telling them to shoot poorly? Is Quinn telling your keeper to not stop shots from 15 yards out?

Can't both be true? It's not a zero sum game. Perhaps they lack some talent but also that the offensive strategy lacks creativity? Shocking, I know, that more than one thing can be true at once.

Notre Dame doesn't have anyone in the top 30 in scoring either. Are they also not even close to top 10 in talent? Neither does Denver. Or Syracuse. Or Penn. But you know who DOES? Sacred Heart! Fairfield! Hartford! Siena! St. John's! Are those teams more talented than Hopkins? The Blue Jays had two in the top 30 in 2016 and that didn't seem to do them much good.

Meanwhile, in Syracuse, no one is talking about removing Desko. He's doing a fine job given the reality of SU, and I don't think a new coach would recruit better.

I'm not sure this is totally true—I've seen one or two comment sections filled with people calling for Desko's head year in and year out—but in any event, perhaps this speaks to the passion of the fan bases. If Syracuse fans are complacent and having fun, good for them. Seriously. Sometimes I envy that. But that's not the culture at Hopkins. I think it's quite likely there's a chip on everyone's shoulders because lacrosse is really the only outlet. Nobody cares about our D3 sports, as good as many of them are. Cuse alumni still have basketball, football, etc. to go to if the lacrosse team is disappointing. Hopkins has womens D3 cross country. (With all due respect to that team—they're terrific—but they don't exactly move the needle.)

[johnnyonthegunpowder]

I don't think the administration cares about lacrosse anymore and I think it will care less and less with each passing year. This is an observation based 5% on lacrosse and 95% the direction of Johns Hopkins University as an entity.

[steel_hop]

FThe loss of the last president was even bigger. Administration suppprt has dropped way off.

We talked about this on LP and I agree completely. There is a reason most of the long term DIII coaches retired in the last 3-5 years. I think Babb and the soccer coach whose name slips right now are 20+ year guys. Margraff, RIP, would have been the other. While some of that is just coaches just getting old most of them were still in their early 60s so sort of unusual for Nelson, Blank (RIP) and Kennedy all to retire close together. You add in TC's internal change in the school and you can tell something smells. I also don't think it is strange that some of the more gentile sports have risen in the last decade (tennis, cross-country and track). How much that impacts the mens lax program, I don't know but it must have some impact but still should have driven the program to its current predicament. The counter argument is that the women's team is having its best year ever and has been on the rise over the last 4-5 years since getting into the B1G.

We also agree that Hopkins made a huge mistake in not promoting within the school and going instead with Daniels. We talked about the other guy who has now left. He was a dynamic professor and not shocking he is the Provost at one of the largest universities in the country and doing a great job there. I think Daniels has been a detriment to the Hopkins community due to his goal in sacrificing everything to reach some ephemeral goal of getting Hopkins in the top 5 ranks. Instead of building a community he has further driven the "throat" mentality. I was sadden to see him get his contract renewed. I think the other option would have been better.

My hope is that he is plucked by some other school like an Ivy (where probably wants to be) in the near future and Hopkins can get a president that wants truly well rounded individuals.

[jhu06]

I'm not sure what Daniels has to do with getting outscored 37-16 by loyola/towson/cuse/uva in the 2nd and 3rd quarters and 10-3 by cuse/uva in the 4th quarter. Endowment, college costs, violence in the city, tough academics, lack of social life, every university has its drawbacks and attractions. Doesn't explain the fact coaches are making better in game adjustments than ours or why a dreadful first midfield continues to play and why over the last decade our guys haven't been able to get past the qf or even compete in those games. A lot of this is used news from 2009,2010, the defeats after 11,12, the 13 mess, and the subsequent end of season thrashings.

[Cooter]

You are getting caught up on some sort of dumbass semantics.
You need to be focusing on UMd, not the recruit.
Please, just switch "late recruit" for "late addition to Maryland's recruiting class", then reread my post.

I think 16 is trying to distinguish between "kids who had early offers (from somebody)", regardless of whether they stuck with that initial offer or not, versus "kids who weren't made an offer (by anybody) until late in the process."

Exactly. It's not semantics. Maryland doesn't get points because Heacock decided last minute to switch his commitment to them. Not all "late additions to a class" are created equal. Cooter can use whatever language he wants but it doesn't change the fact that Heacock's commitment was fundamentally different from the rest and doesn't belong grouped with the others.

Look you are missing the whole point. The point is that Tillman didn't depend so much on just his early recruits, but kept adding to the group with later additions and then transfers - thus ER didn't affect Maryland as much.

If ER recruits didn't pan out, Tillman would find other players later on to fill in the spots. UVa, UNC, and JHU tended to depend more on their ERs.

I don't see how Heacock's commitment is so different from several of the other, in particular, it seems rather similar to Dylan Pallonetti's commitment this past December.

[a fan]

I agree with you for pretty much everything except the bolded part. I'm not saying there are available coaches who would do better than the JHU coaches, but Cole Williams is a very talented player and had a good year last year. He's been under performing. Desimone had 18 points as a freshman midfielder and is under performing. On the other hand, Epstein is having a very good freshman season. Those are 3 very talented players. Add in Marr and it seems like it should be a pretty potent offense. Why isn't it?

Several reasons. One, scouting. Have you noticed Williams' stickhandling isn't all that great? He can't switch from his left to his right hand the way, say, Epstein can. So no matter the team, the double comes comes REALLY fast and aggressive on Williams.....next game, count how many times the double forces Williams to run away from the goal mouth, keeping the stick in whatever had he is using when the double comes. He never seems to roll out of the pressure, and I don't know why.

As for Marr, his shooting is awful. Last year he was at 38%, this year, he's at 28%. You've probably noticed scoring is way up in D1. But you might not have noticed how much shooting percentage has gone up. Look at the top 20 or so goal scorers, and you'll find many players shooting in the 40% range.

Overall, though, look at who left.....Tinney and Stanwick. The two players who got defenses rotating---they combined for 67 assists. Who replaced Tinney at midfield? No one.

They don't have the horses. Again. And of course, we haven't so much as discussed the defensive side of the field.

If you ask me, and I know no one is....Petro has been muscling his teams to good seasons the last few years. Insiders like OCanada are trying to tell fans that administrative support is waning at a very expensive school.

[Gatsby]

Meanwhile, in Syracuse, no one is talking about removing Desko. He's doing a fine job given the reality of SU, and I don't think a new coach would recruit better.

Are you sure about that? If you mean this very second, there's no talk because SU has won the last few games. But after many losses, esp. if it's to a lower ranked team, I see plenty of talk about removing Desko. Go look at the SU lacrosse board. A common refrain is Desko must go. There are multiple threads devoted to who should replace Desko from last month of this year.

[HopFan16]

Did Ron Daniels tell Petro to let Zinn ride the bench for the first half of the season? Did they tell him to only recruit SSDMs below 5'9''? Did they make Tinney and Foley miss years of eligibility? Did they tell the staff to stack up on small converted attackmen instead of developing actual honest-to-goodness midfielders? Did they tell Benson to continue with the Concannon dodge to nowhere when it clearly wasn't working? Did they force the Jays to completely collapse in the second half against Syracuse in a game that should have been won?

What does "administrative support" even MEAN in this context? Hop's administration likely supports its lacrosse programs more than any other school administration supports theirs. What support aren't they getting? We all know Daniels doesn't care about lacrosse as much as the last guy did, but how does that actually manifest itself? In the last few years they've developed an advisory board comprised of some legendary alumni and hired an academic advisor—make fun of it all you want—specifically so that the players keep up with their schoolwork. They built a huge multimillion dollar lacrosse facility. They re-upped deals with ESPN, Under Armour, Cascade. If you ask me, support has gone up, not down, in recent years. At worst, it's status quo. How many recruits base their college decisions on their interactions with the AD or the president of the university? "Hey mom, I really want to go to this school now, the deciding factor was my lovely conversation I had with the president of the school." How many presidents of universities give enough of a hoot about their mens lacrosse programs to actually insert themselves in the recruiting process? Do we think that Yale won the title last year because Peter Salovey was the one who convinced Ben Reeves to go there?

Please enlighten me as to how the administration is the reason for the program's decline, and provide specific examples as to how they can better support the team so that it wins more games and stops blowing second-half leads.

[DMac]

Welcome to the Hop thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD24VY0YWdQ

[a fan]

Are you sure about that? If you mean this very second, there's no talk because SU has won the last few games. But after many losses, esp. if it's to a lower ranked team, I see plenty of talk about removing Desko. Go look at the SU lacrosse board. A common refrain is Desko must go. There are multiple threads devoted to who should replace Desko from last month of this year.

If you want to count the same guys who wanted Desko canned the instant the FF Streak stopped, sure.

I don't.

[runrussellrun]

AFAN wrote;

Is Quinn telling your keeper to not stop shots from 15 yards out?

It's Quin, with one N. (according to the Hopkins website)

small things become big things.

[runrussellrun]

Ask this every year.

How many of you Hopkins fan watch practice ? Pedestrian is being kind, IMHO. A third of the time spent doing yoga or other non-lacrosse stuff.

[51percentcorn]

I am not a Hopkins insider but if Daniels and Shanahan were testifying before the Fanlax subcommittee on the declination of Hopkins lacrosse - I must admit the questions asked back by them would be somewhat compelling:
- Daniels - wasn't I here when your lacrosse only building went up?
- Daniels - didn't I oversee a 4 year extension to your head coach?
- Daniels - don't I authorize a Director of Lacrosse Operations?
- Daniels/Shanahan - didn't we oversee the establishment of the lacrosse advisory board?
- Daniels/Shanhan - didn't we oversee the establishment of the Lacrosse endowment fund?
- Daniels - can you provide me a list of lacrosse recruits that wanted to go to Hopkins but were prevented form doing so by my academic standards?

While I know of anecdotal evidence that Daniels is an academic prima donna and I have been told by some Hopkins coaches in DIII sports personally that the increased academic standards and lack of "stretches" were going to impact the performance on the field - it must also be noted that Hopkins is in the lead for the Directors' Cup.

So I think they might tell that subcommittee to go take a long leap off a short pier.

There are generally two reasons for an individual's drop off in performance within a team sport - injury or the accompanying players around them. I have no idea whether Williams or DeSimone are injured. But the decline is really interesting.
Williams: 2018 (17 games) 35 goals 14 assists 132 shots (way more than Marr) and a shot% of 27% 22 turnovers - if you extended Hopkins 2019 season to 16 games so I can double the current output for easier math he is on pace for 16 goals 22 assists on 90 shots and a shot % of 18% and 36 turnovers. So his shot out put would decrease by over 30%!!! When you would expect the team needs him to shoot more. Why? - easy - Epstein's role is not Shack's - in fact they are asking Williams to initiate the offense at the beginning and middle of the sets. Therefore, he is carrying the ball more - drawing more slides and turning the ball over more. The other reason he does not have Tinney, Fraser, Valis all contributing at least 15 goals - not to even include Guida's 7 so there aren't shooters all around to allow more one on one dodges. He's a stranger in a strange land right now. Right now I would give Epstein the keys to the car and put Williams perhaps back in a more familiar role.
DeSimone - 2018 - 16 goals 2 assists on 57 shots and a 28% shot percentage
2019 on pace for 4 goals 14 assists on 38 shots with a generous rounded up 11% shot percentage
This is somewhat more puzzling to me - you can offer the opinion that he just wasn't as good as advertised but I watched that kid wreck UVA at Klockner last year (along with other high level games) and he just doesn't even begin to look like the same player. It wasn't like he was a one trick pony that could do a middie invert and score a few goals and that's it - he had a hard outside shot - he could drive the alley - dodge from the wing - obviously he is suffering from the lack of adequate mid-field companions and he still probably gets the pole on the firsts but you might have expected he could have fought a better fight than what he has shown so far - unless of course he is out there injured.

BTW - there has been less focus on Marr - someone just mentioned his shot % is down by 10 points and aside from that his on pace for 16 games will be 7 fewer goals than 2018 and 5 fewer assists with twice as many turnovers 24 on pace compared to 12 for all of 2018

[DocBarrister]

President Daniels had his contract renewed because he has been a stellar university president. During his tenure, the quality of undergraduate life has improved, academics have been strengthened, reputation of the university has been enhanced, and fund raising (including for financial aid) has set new records. All that should only help recruiting for the lacrosse program.

Hopkins sports has hardly suffered under Daniels. Indeed, despite the occasional struggles of the men’s lacrosse program, Blue Jay athletics have been in a golden age of sorts. Plus, facilities have never been better.

To date, no one on this forum has provided any detailed explanation for their hostility towards Daniels, just vague assertions that he doesn’t support the lacrosse program.

Well, let me tell you something ... the guy has a lot more important things to do than cheerlead the lacrosse program. He runs one of the most complex and geographically dispersed universities in the world, including a world-class health system. Would it be nice to see him watch some games at Homewood Field? Sure, but he’s got a multi-billion dollar enterprise to run ... so, give the guy a break.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

I am not a Hopkins insider but if Daniels and Shanahan were testifying before the Fanlax subcommittee on the declination of Hopkins lacrosse - I must admit the questions asked back by them would be somewhat compelling:
- Daniels - wasn't I here when your lacrosse only building went up?
- Daniels - didn't I oversee a 4 year extension to your head coach?
- Daniels - don't I authorize a Director of Lacrosse Operations?
- Daniels/Shanahan - didn't we oversee the establishment of the lacrosse advisory board?
- Daniels/Shanhan - didn't we oversee the establishment of the Lacrosse endowment fund?
- Daniels - can you provide me a list of lacrosse recruits that wanted to go to Hopkins but were prevented form doing so by my academic standards?

While I know of anecdotal evidence that Daniels is an academic prima donna and I have been told by some Hopkins coaches in DIII sports personally that the increased academic standards and lack of "stretches" were going to impact the performance on the field - it must also be noted that Hopkins is in the lead for the Directors' Cup.

So I think they might tell that subcommittee to go take a long leap off a short pier.

There are generally two reasons for an individual's drop off in performance within a team sport - injury or the accompanying players around them. I have no idea whether Williams or DeSimone are injured. But the decline is really interesting.
Williams: 2018 (17 games) 35 goals 14 assists 132 shots (way more than Marr) and a shot% of 27% 22 turnovers - if you extended Hopkins 2019 season to 16 games so I can double the current output for easier math he is on pace for 16 goals 22 assists on 90 shots and a shot % of 18% and 36 turnovers. So his shot out put would decrease by over 30%!!! When you would expect the team needs him to shoot more. Why? - easy - Epstein's role is not Shack's - in fact they are asking Williams to initiate the offense at the beginning and middle of the sets. Therefore, he is carrying the ball more - drawing more slides and turning the ball over more. The other reason he does not have Tinney, Fraser, Valis all contributing at least 15 goals - not to even include Guida's 7 so there aren't shooters all around to allow more one on one dodges. He's a stranger in a strange land right now. Right now I would give Epstein the keys to the car and put Williams perhaps back in a more familiar role.
DeSimone - 2018 - 16 goals 2 assists on 57 shots and a 28% shot percentage
2019 on pace for 4 goals 14 assists on 38 shots with a generous rounded up 11% shot percentage
This is somewhat more puzzling to me - you can offer the opinion that he just wasn't as good as advertised but I watched that kid wreck UVA at Klockner last year (along with other high level games) and he just doesn't even begin to look like the same player. It wasn't like he was a one trick pony that could do a middie invert and score a few goals and that's it - he had a hard outside shot - he could drive the alley - dodge from the wing - obviously he is suffering from the lack of adequate mid-field companions and he still probably gets the pole on the firsts but you might have expected he could have fought a better fight than what he has shown so far - unless of course he is out there injured.

BTW - there has been less focus on Marr - someone just mentioned his shot % is down by 10 points and aside from that his on pace for 16 games will be 7 fewer goals than 2018 and 5 fewer assists with twice as many turnovers 24 on pace compared to 12 for all of 2018

Agree with the above excellent post. Many positive things have happened under Daniel’s watch.

Epstein should be quarterbacking the offense on each possession. Both Williams and Marr need their teammates to work harder for them ... Williams with two-man games, and Marr quick skip passes to get him the open shot. It’s the other guys on the field who need to get the opposing defense moving and rotating to open things up for Williams and Marr. No way Williams and Marr should be initiating that. Reflects the Blue Jays’ current deficiencies in working together as a team.

DocBarrister

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

E6B29641-E779-4204-92DF-061A525D427F.png (171.8 KiB) Viewed 2687 times

[a fan]

- unless of course he is out there injured.

Good reminder to all of us when we're critiquing these hard working kids. We don't have all the info., and might be missing key points.

[youthathletics]

- unless of course he is out there injured.

Good reminder to all of us when we're critiquing these hard working kids. We don't have all the info., and might be missing key points.

Facts!
+1

[laxpert]

….
Well, let me tell you something ... the guy has a lot more important things to do than cheerlead the lacrosse program. He runs one of the most complex and geographically dispersed universities in the world, including a world-class health system. Would it be nice to see him watch some games at Homewood Field? Sure, but he’s got a multi-billion dollar enterprise to run ... so, give the guy a break.

DocBarrister

You mean getting Hopkins Lacrosse to the Final Four wasn't part of Daniels 10x2020 initiative?
That said, I would speculate at every facility mixer some professor complains to him about the size of his/her office compared to Petro's and Tuckers.