LaxPower Back-Up Stick

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:26 pm**

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:07 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
They were traitors. And because they lost they should by and large be consigned to that status.

But in needing to resurrect the notion of a glorious Confederacy with honorable intentions of states rights (instead of the stated cause to maintain slavery), and given that Lincoln could not be brought down and Jefferson Davis was a rather forgettable leader, RE Lee got the hero treatment and the attacks were on Grant (hated because his administrations were full in for Reconstruction). In reality Lee was competent, but unimaginative as a general, and Grant was brilliant in anticipating the mobile warfare to come in the next wars to be fought.

Sherman & Forrest were also brilliant. Jackson & Chamberlain were inspirational leaders in combat.
We used to admire them all. Now we must defame half of them as traitors, pull down their statues, or be branded as traitors ourselves.
Welcome to Woke Revisionist History 101, in our new Blood Guilt Curriculum. Whiplash neck collars mandatory.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:36 pm**

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight for the CSA in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
Had the CSA gained independence, Davis, Lee, et al would be hailed as founding fathers,

Were it not for the failure of Picketts charge they may very well have won the war. Lee was a very smart tactician. I never understood such a stupid move. He was ever so close to having the English join his cause. As a New York Yankee I am glad he did. He spent the first 2 years if the war making the union army look like a bunch of morons.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:36 pm**

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:26 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:07 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
They were traitors. And because they lost they should by and large be consigned to that status.

But in needing to resurrect the notion of a glorious Confederacy with honorable intentions of states rights (instead of the stated cause to maintain slavery), and given that Lincoln could not be brought down and Jefferson Davis was a rather forgettable leader, RE Lee got the hero treatment and the attacks were on Grant (hated because his administrations were full in for Reconstruction). In reality Lee was competent, but unimaginative as a general, and Grant was brilliant in anticipating the mobile warfare to come in the next wars to be fought.
Sherman & Forrest were also brilliant. Jackson & Chamberlain were inspirational leaders in combat.
We used to admire them all. Now we must defame half of them as traitors, pull down their statues, or be branded as traitors ourselves.
Welcome to Woke Revisionist History 101, in our new Blood Guilt Curriculum. Whiplash neck collars mandatory.

Total BS.....who is this mythical "we" that admired the founder of the KKK ? I am ASSuming Forrest, refers to Nathan Bedford, no?

Not surprising, from a laxmafia, RPI guy. The South lost. And lost badly.** So, you love loser. Admire them.

** Well, not the plantation owners, they were fine. Is that the "we" you refer too?

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:39 pm**

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:36 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight for the CSA in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
Had the CSA gained independence, Davis, Lee, et al would be hailed as founding fathers,
Were it not for the failure of Picketts charge they may very well have won the war. Lee was a very smart tactician. I never understood such a stupid move. He was ever so close to having the English join his cause. As a New York Yankee I am glad he did. He spent the first 2 years if the war making the union army look like a bunch of morons.

Lee was a horrible tactician. Gettysburg proved it. Blaming that idiotic charge (relied to much on Stonewalls calvary ) on Pickett is stupid.

Unless, by tactician, you mean he knew how to dig holes and tunnels, like a rat, sitting behind redoubts. Sorry, any success Lee had was the incompetance of the NOrth. Or, rather, southern sympathizers like McClellan.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:42 pm**

ChairmanOfTheBoard wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:14 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:07 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
They were traitors. And because they lost they should by and large be consigned to that status.

But in needing to resurrect the notion of a glorious Confederacy with honorable intentions of states rights (instead of the stated cause to maintain slavery), and given that Lincoln could not be brought down and Jefferson Davis was a rather forgettable leader, RE Lee got the hero treatment and the attacks were on Grant (hated because his administrations were full in for Reconstruction). In reality Lee was competent, but unimaginative as a general, and Grant was brilliant in anticipating the mobile warfare to come in the next wars to be fought.
agreed with all of this, both Red and OS. well put.

Hey, who wouldn't join a cause for a economic system whose profitability and survival was based upon an endless supply of FREE labor?
...yet they still LOST. think about that.

The only reason they all weren't executed as traitors was because forward-looking leaders like Lincoln and Grant wanted to heal a reunited nation.
Those supporters won in the short term but Lincoln was killed resulting in an occupied Reconstruction South until the pols made a deal in the election of 1876 wherein the Republicans traded a win in the election in return for removal of troops from the South and the reinstatement of the white/former Confederacy without slavery but with all of the other racial accoutrements that came with it.

DOPUS' now fervent support of the Confederacy and its Lost Cause reminds me of another country where the guy who led the uprising still has a
mausoleum in his memory in Red Square. Lenin won before he ultimately lost you know. No wonder Salty is with these guys.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:43 pm**

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:13 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight for the CSA in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
Had the CSA gained independence, Davis, Lee, et al would be hailed as founding fathers,
Absolute nonsense.

Washington wasn’t just on the winning side, he was also on the right side of history ... towards more democracy and freedom. Doesn’t excuse his ownership of slaves, but Washington moved the needle further towards more freedom for more people (obviously, not for all people).

The Confederates and the Confederacy, on the other hand, were not just on the losing side, they were on the wrong side of history. They started a war that cost hundreds of thousands of American lives for the purpose of preserving one of the most evil institutions in all of human history ... slavery. They belong more with the Nazis and Stalinists than with Washington.

DocBarrister

Yes, isn't it amazing how many whites fought and died to free the slaves. And who were they fighting? Democrats. Slavery was almost exclusively a Democrat system. The Republican party was in it's infancy at the time and was mainly in Midwestern states. It consisted principally of farmers who neither wanted or could have even afforded them. In the 1960's, it was Northeastern Republicans that made the Civil Rights laws possible. And before you say the parties switched their roles on race relations, watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RBFOTdY1yY

The only Senator that switched parties was Strom Thurmond. Most of the Republican gains the the South were in suburbs and in the fringe states, not in the deep south of AL, GA, MS and LA. They were still dominated by Democrats.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:50 pm**

runrussellrun wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:39 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:36 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight for the CSA in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
Had the CSA gained independence, Davis, Lee, et al would be hailed as founding fathers,
Were it not for the failure of Picketts charge they may very well have won the war. Lee was a very smart tactician. I never understood such a stupid move. He was ever so close to having the English join his cause. As a New York Yankee I am glad he did. He spent the first 2 years if the war making the union army look like a bunch of morons.
Lee was a horrible tactician. Gettysburg proved it. Blaming that idiotic charge (relied to much on Stonewalls calvary ) on Pickett is stupid.

Unless, by tactician, you mean he knew how to dig holes and tunnels, like a rat, sitting behind redoubts. Sorry, any success Lee had was the incompetance of the NOrth. Or, rather, southern sympathizers like McClellan.

He is the terrible tactician that had the union army chasing their tails for the first 2 years of the war. Ever read about the first battle of Bull Run. The Union army retreated back to DC in a chaotic mess. What Lee never had was the one thing the Union army did have... unlimited resources to fight such a brutal war. You do understand that Lee had almost won over the English to fight on the Confederate side.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:51 pm**

get it to x wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:43 pm Yes, isn't it amazing how many whites fought and died to free the slaves. And who were they fighting? Democrats. Slavery was almost exclusively a Democrat system. The Republican party was in it's infancy at the time and was mainly in Midwestern states. It consisted principally of farmers who neither wanted or could have even afforded them. In the 1960's, it was Northeastern Republicans that made the Civil Rights laws possible. And before you say the parties switched their roles on race relations, watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RBFOTdY1yY

The only Senator that switched parties was Strom Thurmond. Most of the Republican gains the the South were in suburbs and in the fringe states, not in the deep south of AL, GA, MS and LA. They were still dominated by Democrats.

Yep and the FIRST President of the modern Democratic Party was Andrew Jackson - war hero, people's champion and slaveholder (Trump's idol). How ironic that his portrait was likely on the fake $20 bill that resulted in the beginning of the end of George Floyd.

As they say, what goes around, comes around.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:51 pm**

Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:42 pm
ChairmanOfTheBoard wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:14 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:07 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
They were traitors. And because they lost they should by and large be consigned to that status.

But in needing to resurrect the notion of a glorious Confederacy with honorable intentions of states rights (instead of the stated cause to maintain slavery), and given that Lincoln could not be brought down and Jefferson Davis was a rather forgettable leader, RE Lee got the hero treatment and the attacks were on Grant (hated because his administrations were full in for Reconstruction). In reality Lee was competent, but unimaginative as a general, and Grant was brilliant in anticipating the mobile warfare to come in the next wars to be fought.
agreed with all of this, both Red and OS. well put.
Hey, who wouldn't join a cause for a economic system whose profitability and survival was based upon an endless supply of FREE labor?
...yet they still LOST. think about that.

DOPUS' now fervent support of the Confederacy and its Lost Cause reminds me of another country where the guy who led the uprising still has a
mausoleum in his memory in Red Square. Lenin won before he ultimately lost you know. No wonder Salty is with these guys.

The West Point educated traitors clearly forgot their history lessons. Or, rather, the downright forgotten history that the leaders in the NOrth, as shown in the pathetic military charges, like at Mary Hieghts, gave TWO craps about the troops. The southen traitors officers forgot the ruthlessness of the oligarchy. That the Norths roots, after all, were mired in British arrogance. And, with having zero problem of sending wave upon human wave into slaughter.

That's why Sherman had a nervous breakdown at the start of the war. He knew what he had to do, had a hard time grappling with it......and came back with . "...you want war.....I'll show you war..."

The Southerner traiter officers forgot this lesson. Relentless, especially using those pesky Katholics.......after all, the Merrimack river mills were the 18th century suicial slave shops. " Feel free to leave any time, lil 13 year old farm girl, feel free"

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:52 pm**

get it to x wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:43 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:13 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight for the CSA in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
Had the CSA gained independence, Davis, Lee, et al would be hailed as founding fathers,
Absolute nonsense.

Washington wasn’t just on the winning side, he was also on the right side of history ... towards more democracy and freedom. Doesn’t excuse his ownership of slaves, but Washington moved the needle further towards more freedom for more people (obviously, not for all people).

The Confederates and the Confederacy, on the other hand, were not just on the losing side, they were on the wrong side of history. They started a war that cost hundreds of thousands of American lives for the purpose of preserving one of the most evil institutions in all of human history ... slavery. They belong more with the Nazis and Stalinists than with Washington.

DocBarrister
Yes, isn't it amazing how many whites fought and died to free the slaves. And who were they fighting? Democrats. Slavery was almost exclusively a Democrat system. The Republican party was in it's infancy at the time and was mainly in Midwestern states. It consisted principally of farmers who neither wanted or could have even afforded them. In the 1960's, it was Northeastern Republicans that made the Civil Rights laws possible. And before you say the parties switched their roles on race relations, watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RBFOTdY1yY

The only Senator that switched parties was Strom Thurmond. Most of the Republican gains the the South were in suburbs and in the fringe states, not in the deep south of AL, GA, MS and LA. They were still dominated by Democrats.

I wish we had Republicans like that again. Haven't seen any since the early 60's.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:52 pm**

The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight for the CSA in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side. Had the CSA gained independence, Davis, Lee, et al would be hailed as founding fathers,

Absolute nonsense.

Washington wasn’t just on the winning side, he was also on the right side of history ... towards more democracy and freedom. Doesn’t excuse his ownership of slaves, but Washington moved the needle further towards more freedom for more people (obviously, not for all people).

The Confederates and the Confederacy, on the other hand, were not just on the losing side, they were on the wrong side of history. They belong more with the Nazis and Stalinists than with Washington.

Yes, isn't it amazing how many whites fought and died to free the slaves. And who were they fighting? Democrats. Slavery was almost exclusively a Democrat system.

That went south (pun intended) faster than I expected. Oh boy.

On another note.

If you like alternative history, I highly recommend Amazon's Man in the High Castle. Wife and I are currently binge-ing our way through the four seasons.

Set in 1962 USA after the Allies lost WW2. The Nazis got the bomb first, and so were able to win the war by nuking Washington DC. Japanese occupy the West, with HQ in San Francisco; Nazis occupy the East with HQ in NYC. The occupiers celebrate VA (Victory in America) Day rather than July 4. Cold War ends up being between Germany and Japan.

Very well done.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:54 pm**

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:50 pm
runrussellrun wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:39 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:36 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight for the CSA in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
Had the CSA gained independence, Davis, Lee, et al would be hailed as founding fathers,
Were it not for the failure of Picketts charge they may very well have won the war. Lee was a very smart tactician. I never understood such a stupid move. He was ever so close to having the English join his cause. As a New York Yankee I am glad he did. He spent the first 2 years if the war making the union army look like a bunch of morons.
Lee was a horrible tactician. Gettysburg proved it. Blaming that idiotic charge (relied to much on Stonewalls calvary ) on Pickett is stupid.

Unless, by tactician, you mean he knew how to dig holes and tunnels, like a rat, sitting behind redoubts. Sorry, any success Lee had was the incompetance of the NOrth. Or, rather, southern sympathizers like McClellan.
He is the terrible tactician that had the union army chasing their tails for the first 2 years of the war. Ever read about the first battle of Bull Run. The Union army retreated back to DC in a chaotic mess. What Lee never had was the one thing the Union army did have... unlimited resources to fight such a brutal war. You do understand that Lee had almost won over the English to fight on the Confederate side.

A few friends agree that Lee was a traitor. They also agree that he defended slavery, in the name of "states rights".

SO, why then, are they upset about the removal of Lee's traitors statues?

About your "chaising tails" comment. Like I said, lots of Northern traitors as well, masked as Generals. I mentioned one of them. McClellan. HE was in charge for........and...oopps....JUST so happened to run against Lincoln with what KIND of platform/agenda?

exactly

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:55 pm**

get it to x wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:43 pm (omitted)

Yes, isn't it amazing how many whites fought and died to free the slaves. And who were they fighting? Democrats. Slavery was almost exclusively a Democrat system. The Republican party was in it's infancy at the time and was mainly in Midwestern states. It consisted principally of farmers who neither wanted or could have even afforded them. In the 1960's, it was Northeastern Republicans that made the Civil Rights laws possible. And before you say the parties switched their roles on race relations, watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RBFOTdY1yY

The only Senator that switched parties was Strom Thurmond. Most of the Republican gains the the South were in suburbs and in the fringe states, not in the deep south of AL, GA, MS and LA. They were still dominated by Democrats.

But the northern/midwestern/western Democrats were on the side of Civil Rights for the most part, unlike the southern wing. So the discomfort of being isolated from the national party, along with the "Southern strategy" that Nixon first executed started the large scale transfer of the old Ds to Rs that continued up until maybe 5-10 years ago. Now that old south anti Civil Rights faction is firmly part of the Rs.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:57 pm**

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:17 pm
ChairmanOfTheBoard wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:14 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:07 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
They were traitors. And because they lost they should by and large be consigned to that status.

But in needing to resurrect the notion of a glorious Confederacy with honorable intentions of states rights (instead of the stated cause to maintain slavery), and given that Lincoln could not be brought down and Jefferson Davis was a rather forgettable leader, RE Lee got the hero treatment and the attacks were on Grant (hated because his administrations were full in for Reconstruction). In reality Lee was competent, but unimaginative as a general, and Grant was brilliant in anticipating the mobile warfare to come in the next wars to be fought.
agreed with all of this, both Red and OS. well put.
For a really good discussion on this see:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/th ... es-s-grant

and https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/re ... g-the-past

thank you red. at a glance looks good and will read soon.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:59 pm**

ggait wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:52 pm
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight for the CSA in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side. Had the CSA gained independence, Davis, Lee, et al would be hailed as founding fathers,

Absolute nonsense.

Washington wasn’t just on the winning side, he was also on the right side of history ... towards more democracy and freedom. Doesn’t excuse his ownership of slaves, but Washington moved the needle further towards more freedom for more people (obviously, not for all people).

The Confederates and the Confederacy, on the other hand, were not just on the losing side, they were on the wrong side of history. They belong more with the Nazis and Stalinists than with Washington.

Yes, isn't it amazing how many whites fought and died to free the slaves. And who were they fighting? Democrats. Slavery was almost exclusively a Democrat system.
Boy that went south (pun intended) faster than I expected.

On another note.

If you like alternative history, I highly recommend Amazon's Man in the High Castle. Wife and I are currently binge-ing our way through the four seasons.

Set in 1962 USA after the Allies lost WW2. The Nazis got the bomb first, and so were able to win the war by nuking Washington DC. Japanese occupy the West, with HQ in San Francisco; Nazis occupy the East with HQ in NYC. The occupiers celebrate VA (Victory in America) Day rather than July 4. Cold War ends up being between Germany and Japan.

Very well done.

I won't give Bezo's a dime of my money........how did they get the bomb to DC ? Submarine?

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:01 pm**

Then just by the book, which I'd never heard of. Apparently was very popular in the 60s/70s.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:02 pm**

ggait wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:01 pm Then just by the book, which I'd never heard of. Apparently was very popular in the 60s/70s.

buy the book?

Where? Books stores aren't open.

, say it, say it......ahhhhh AAAA MAZON

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:12 pm**

You can tell things have changed a bit - this just in: NASCAR has just banned the Confederate flag from its races/properties.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:16 pm**

runrussellrun wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:02 pm
ggait wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:01 pm Then just by the book, which I'd never heard of. Apparently was very popular in the 60s/70s.
buy the book?

Where? Books stores aren't open.

, say it, say it......ahhhhh AAAA MAZON

Try Commonwealth Books. It’s open.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:20 pm**

Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:42 pm
ChairmanOfTheBoard wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:14 pm
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:07 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:02 pm
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am So some clarification... when does the Washington monument become part of the bullseye?
There are statues of Washington because he's the father of our nation, militarily and politically. If some amazing data fell from the sky to prove that Washington was actually an English spy who was trying to destroy our nation and didn't actually do all the positive things he's preported to have done, then he gets a bullseye. Otherwise, he's safely not a target.
Washington was a traitor to his King & country, he fought in defense of Virginia & the other rebel North American colonies.
We revere him because he was on our side... & he won.
The US Army officers who resigned their commissions to fight in defense of their home states were no more traitors than Washington & fellow founding fathers. They just fought on the losing side.
They were traitors. And because they lost they should by and large be consigned to that status.

But in needing to resurrect the notion of a glorious Confederacy with honorable intentions of states rights (instead of the stated cause to maintain slavery), and given that Lincoln could not be brought down and Jefferson Davis was a rather forgettable leader, RE Lee got the hero treatment and the attacks were on Grant (hated because his administrations were full in for Reconstruction). In reality Lee was competent, but unimaginative as a general, and Grant was brilliant in anticipating the mobile warfare to come in the next wars to be fought.
agreed with all of this, both Red and OS. well put.
Hey, who wouldn't join a cause for a economic system whose profitability and survival was based upon an endless supply of FREE labor?
...yet they still LOST. think about that.

The only reason they all weren't executed as traitors was because forward-looking leaders like Lincoln and Grant wanted to heal a reunited nation.
Those supporters won in the short term but Lincoln was killed resulting in an occupied Reconstruction South until the pols made a deal in the election of 1876 wherein the Republicans traded a win in the election in return for removal of troops from the South and the reinstatement of the white/former Confederacy without slavery but with all of the other racial accoutrements that came with it.

DOPUS' now fervent support of the Confederacy and its Lost Cause reminds me of another country where the guy who led the uprising still has a
mausoleum in his memory in Red Square. Lenin won before he ultimately lost you know. No wonder Salty is with these guys.

You make a brilliant point that is so often overlooked in the tumultuous years after the civil war. Lincolns assassination was the pivotal moment that doomed a smooth transition of the confederacy back into the union. I tried to find the quote from Lincoln today but I could not locate it. He said something along the lines of treating the defeated confederates as misguided brothers as opposed to a conquered enemy. The South was then treated as a conquered enemy with all the corruption that ensued upon reconstruction. The effects of the horrendous mistake still haunt our country today. In many respects North and South are still divided about that damn war.

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