Johns Hopkins 2020

[admin]

[HopFan16]

Wow, 3 optimistic posts in a row. Better quick get some negativism and vitriol in here before any burgeoning Hop fans start thinking there are redeeming qualities to the team, university, campus, facilities, etc.

The campus, professors, and facilities are all great.
The men’s lacrosse team, not so much.

Are you a fan or not? Look, there's plenty to criticize, but at some point the act gets kind of stale—you can be critical of elements of the program without the constant, over-the-top negativity. If this were pro sports, sure, have at it: the billionaire owners and multi-million dollar players who can't string two wins together deserve all the cynicism in the world. But these are college student-athletes of a niche sport who are not getting paid, and the vast majority of them will not even go on to have professional careers in lacrosse. You get the impression that some people here who purport to be fans in fact actively root against the team, hope that they fail, or at least display some measure of glee in their misfortune.

Stupefied is to some degree correct—you don't kick Maryland's teeth in two games in a row by accident. The team has a chance in 2020. Nobody is forcing anyone to predict Final Four after Final Four like DocB—we all know that isn't going to happen—but they have a chance. As long as that remains the case, I don't really understand the doom and gloom and all the histrionics. The Jays have, for the first time in a long time, a truly elite attackman to run the offense, who's capable of completely taking over a game (and he's only a sophomore). And there's enough talent around him—maybe not as much we we'd like, but enough—to make it work. Now seems like an especially weird time to write the Jays off completely.

[steel_hop]

Short Petro interview on LSN:

https://www.ftfnext.com/videos/dave-pie ... ntion-hits

"Summer of soul-searching," fall/winter spent on fundamentals, watching film, fixing defensive issues—sounds eerily similar to the language following the 2017 season. 2018 was a better season, but how much longer can we keep doing this...

More praise for Joey's work ethic and some discussion of his teammates voting him a captain.

A portion of his IMLCA speech was about last season and why it wasnt up to Hopkins standards. His focus would be on going over everything this fall , especially the little things that cost them. That was his main theme for speech , little things that destroy a defense.

My impression after listening to his speech at convention was that the 2019 team didnt put out the effort mentally or physically to win. I am sure that is not what he intended the audience to think but that is what I got out of it. He took responsibility for it as most coaches would.

Apparently this fall the team has been focused on these little things with study of film from last year. Main emphasis was going over approaches, angles,athletic posture, stick arrival, etc, etc, etc. Basically fundamentals in a big way. I enjoyed the speech and its message of " little things" making a different.

Which was his focus in 2014 or 2017 or 2018. He's said the same thing in the past about focusing on the little things.

[51percentcorn]

As far as Petro - in reality what is he supposed to say? It's obviously in his best interests to remain the coach of the team - so He's going to say he is working on the fixes - he's not going to say "well, obviously, I've lost it and they don't get my message anymore and today's game has passed me by" And so, while it might be a reasonable position to suggest the record over the last 10 years has not been up to acceptable standards - I can't
fault the guy for saying he's "looking at everything" "smallest details" etc. and whatever coach speak he has come up with this year. It's really irrelevant. The bottom line is this:
- Hopkins has a talent issue in the middle of the field - offensively and defensively. If the first mid-field cannot provide any more punch than 2019 and the SSDMs can't stand up on their own to some degree then the results will look eerily the same as to last year. If its better - they might surprise a little bit

[houndace1]

on the topic of recruiting, here's what Coach Pietramala said on what he and the staff look for in evaluating players:

"The first and most important thing we look for is competitiveness, that constant competitive spirit and passion — you're not competitive unless you’re passionate. We always want to have a guy who cares deeply about winning and losing. Without a doubt, number two is athleticism and speed. Number three is skill and IQ, then the last one is selflessness — is he about him or the team? You want guys that are competitive, athletic, skilled, IQ, team-first and selfless guys. I’m a believer that you can take a great person that’s a good player and you can help them become a great player. I’m not so sure you can take a great player that’s a below standard person and then go and then make them a great person. You don’t wanna recruit a kid if he’s got bad character. Like a job interview, I’m not sure you can fully know until they get there."

Like most of the coaches mentioned in the article, Petro pretty much covers the bases in what a lot of coaches look for in kids. This is kind of a stark contrast from what Quint said during a TV broadcast during one of Hopkins's games way back in i believe 2012 or 2013.

Q: "Hopkins's players won't beat you with their athleticism. They'll beat you with flashy stick skills, and then burn you with 100+ mph shots from their shooters"

[Sagittarius A*]

Wow, 3 optimistic posts in a row. Better quick get some negativism and vitriol in here before any burgeoning Hop fans start thinking there are redeeming qualities to the team, university, campus, facilities, etc.

The campus, professors, and facilities are all great.
The men’s lacrosse team, not so much.

Are you a fan or not? Look, there's plenty to criticize, but at some point the act gets kind of stale—you can be critical of elements of the program without the constant, over-the-top negativity. If this were pro sports, sure, have at it: the billionaire owners and multi-million dollar players who can't string two wins together deserve all the cynicism in the world. But these are college student-athletes of a niche sport who are not getting paid, and the vast majority of them will not even go on to have professional careers in lacrosse. You get the impression that some people here who purport to be fans in fact actively root against the team, hope that they fail, or at least display some measure of glee in their misfortune.

I do not root against Hopkins. Ever. I sincerely hope the team makes the final four next spring and if they do I’ll be in the stands pulling for them and yelling at the refs like everyone else.

But if the team doesn’t make the FF next year I’m hoping for a coaching change. After 20 years I think it’s time for a new direction. Maybe Epstein will put the team on his shoulders and carry them and motivate the others. But I’m convinced that another staff would do better with the talent the team does have. I wouldn’t want anyone to get the impression that everyone on this board is happy with the last ten years of Blue Jay lacrosse.

[wgdsr]

so ff or out.
another staff would do much better with the talent they have.
who are the 3 teams that hopkins doesn't have more talent than? (or fewer than 3)

i guess you can now safely presume we don't get the impression that everyone here is happy with the last 10 years. mission accomplished.

[OCanada]

There has been a group of lax alums looking at the issues for a few years now.

[DocBarrister]

so ff or out.
another staff would do much better with the talent they have.
who are the 3 teams that hopkins doesn't have more talent than? (or fewer than 3)

i guess you can now safely presume we don't get the impression that everyone here is happy with the last 10 years. mission accomplished.

There’s probably a dozen teams with the necessary talent to reach the Final Four, and Hopkins is almost certainly one of them. I’m not in the Final-Four-or-Bust crowd, but I am hoping Coach Pietramala can show the program is on an upward trajectory. That could mean a 9-4 regular season record, a B1G championship, or a Final Four appearance. I would support a contract renewal/extension if Petro accomplishes any of that in 2020. With some talented incoming classes, I would give Petro more time if he can show the program is moving in the right direction.

Contrary to popular belief, I don’t predict a Final Four appearance for Hopkins every year. I do for 2020. I’m optimistic.

Not my decision on whether Pietramala stays or goes, of course, but that’s how I see things.

DocBarrister

[GSP]

Rather than these subjective predictions(as they must be at this time of year) and given that it is almost certain that the current Staff will remain intact for the 2020 season:
Is there any consensus on what level of success the current Staff needs to achieve to a) deserve a contract extension, b) actually get contract extension, c) length, d) restrictions on assistants?

What is the:
1. Minimum regular season record?
2. Do they NEED to make the NCAA field?
3. If 2) above, how far must they advance?
4. Recruits in the pipeline are enough to warrant extension irrespective of 2020 results?

My take:
9 regular season wins (must include at least 1 against PSU or UMD) at least 1 B1G tourney win and no blowout loss in EITHER 1st or 2nd round of NCAA's gets them another year.
10 regular season wins (must include at least 1 against PSU or UMD) at least 1 B1G tourney win against PSU or UMD and Final 4 appearance in NCAA's gets them 3 years.

[jhu06]

Final 4 or bust. If a Hopkins/acc/maryland (we need a better name-big 7?) coach can't make more than 1 in a 10-11 year span they need to go.

[HopFan16]

Rather than these subjective predictions(as they must be at this time of year) and given that it is almost certain that the current Staff will remain intact for the 2020 season:
Is there any consensus on what level of success the current Staff needs to achieve to a) deserve a contract extension, b) actually get contract extension, c) length, d) restrictions on assistants?

What is the:
1. Minimum regular season record?
2. Do they NEED to make the NCAA field?
3. If 2) above, how far must they advance?
4. Recruits in the pipeline are enough to warrant extension irrespective of 2020 results?

My take:
9 regular season wins (must include at least 1 against PSU or UMD) at least 1 B1G tourney win and no blowout loss in EITHER 1st or 2nd round of NCAA's gets them another year.
10 regular season wins (must include at least 1 against PSU or UMD) at least 1 B1G tourney win against PSU or UMD and Final 4 appearance in NCAA's gets them 3 years.

Question #1 is meaningless IMO—I'd much rather they go 8-5 with wins over Maryland, Penn State, and Syracuse than 9-4 with wins over none of those teams. But that brings me to question #2—there shouldn't be a minimum regular season record as long as they do make the NCAA tournament. That to me should be non-negotiable. Once you get there it's a bit of a crapshoot based on matchups and how hot (or not) particular teams are. But not getting there at all is a debacle. They were perilously close last season. The issue has been these disastrous first-round games where the team comes out like Sam Darnold seeing ghosts all over the field.

I don't find strict criteria like this—with the exception of making the playoffs—to be all that helpful. You can go 13-0 in the regular season but then get blown out again in the first round of the playoffs. If something like that happens, however unlikely it may be, then what? Do you build off the great regular season or do you fire the guy because he lost big in the first round again and failed to make yet another Final Four with a team that was clearly capable of getting there? The decision to keep them or not should be a lot more nuanced. And yes I think recruiting should at least be a factor.

How about we just beat Towson and go from there.

[GSP]

I see your point and my matrix is certainly inexact but...

13-0 regular season and a 1st round blowout? Says that they are VERY competitive (wins over PSU, UMD, and' cuse) and had a bad day. = extension
8-5 regular season and a 1st round tight win and 2nd round blowout? = Start over.

[HopFan16]

8-5 regular season and a 1st round tight win and 2nd round blowout? = Start over.

I get that a season like that would be disappointing and frustrating for a lot of people, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it would result in a change. The optics would be terrible and I think it'd leave a bad taste in a lot of mouths. As Xanders recently said, Petro is widely respected and admired in the community and firing the guy after he gets to the "elite 8" would not be without a great deal of controversy. Making a quarterfinal means you're one of the top 8 teams in the country. No, it's not what many of us would like to see, but in this day and age, with how many competitive teams there are, getting to the quarters is a solid accomplishment. Perhaps not by what some perceive Hopkins standards to be, but, objectively, it's something. I am not against the general concept of cleaning house and rebuilding—I think there comes a time when all companies/organizations/teams/etc. need to consider it—but in my view you've got to be very strategic about how and when you do it.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

Where things have really changed is the consideration of a 4 or 5 loss season somewhat successful.

That wasn’t the norm ten years ago. Not in the 80s, 90s nor 00s.

When was the tournament expanded to 16?

Somewhere around then, I heard a change - originating from the players - that every single game didn’t have to be an extreme life or death intense approach. Losses could happen, and they could still make the tournament.

Since then... losses have piled up, it’s not as easy to make the tournament, and blowouts in tourney play have been common.

4 or 5 loss seasons were not and should not be the Hopkins standard. But 4 or 5 and even 6 and 7 have become commonplace.

Why?

[OCanada]

Quoting records from the 70s, 80s, 90s is a fool’s errand. The game has changed too much in almost all aspects. The motivated thinking process creates stress if you can’t adjust to changing realities

I can recall Cuse losing 3/4 games and then getting to the FF and being applauded for it.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

Quoting records from the 70s, 80s, 90s is a fool’s errand. The game has changed too much in almost all aspects. The motivated thinking process creates stress if you can’t adjust to changing realities

I can recall Cuse losing 3/4 games and then getting to the FF and being applauded for it.

Right.

But Hopkins isn’t even doing that in over a decade.

Not coming within a sniff, except for once.

Losing has become acceptable.

[steel_hop]

8-5 regular season and a 1st round tight win and 2nd round blowout? = Start over.

I get that a season like that would be disappointing and frustrating for a lot of people, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it would result in a change. The optics would be terrible and I think it'd leave a bad taste in a lot of mouths. As Xanders recently said, Petro is widely respected and admired in the community and firing the guy after he gets to the "elite 8" would not be without a great deal of controversy. Making a quarterfinal means you're one of the top 8 teams in the country. No, it's not what many of us would like to see, but in this day and age, with how many competitive teams there are, getting to the quarters is a solid accomplishment. Perhaps not by what some perceive Hopkins standards to be, but, objectively, it's something. I am not against the general concept of cleaning house and rebuilding—I think there comes a time when all companies/organizations/teams/etc. need to consider it—but in my view you've got to be very strategic about how and when you do it.

First, he wouldn't be fired but he wouldn't have his contract renewed. Maybe it is semantics but when guys are fired they get their contract bought out. Petro in this case wouldn't have that. Also, there is the old saying. All things end badly or they wouldn't end.

Second, nothing can be exact. If they go 13-0 and two guys blow out their knees prior to the 1st round and they lose to someone. I get that. But, all things being equal

As for what gets him a short 2 year extension.

Getting to the Final Four. There really isn't much of debate on this. Not sure why anyone raises this issue beyond that. The optics wouldn't look bad at all. Was Dom widely respected and admired in the community? Sure. Didn't save his job.

A Quarterfinal game where he gets blown out will be not any different than 2018, 2014, 2012 or 2011. Wining a 1st round game and then getting torched in the Quarterfinals. In fact, Hopkins has only had 2 (OT loss in 2006 to SU and 2015 FF loss to MD) close losses in the playoffs in the last 15 years. Otherwise, Hopkins regardless of round has not kept the game competitive when they have lost.

Anything else means his contract isn't renewed.

On the reverse end, winning the NC gets him a new 4-5 year deal.

[steel_hop]

Quoting records from the 70s, 80s, 90s is a fool’s errand. The game has changed too much in almost all aspects. The motivated thinking process creates stress if you can’t adjust to changing realities

I can recall Cuse losing 3/4 games and then getting to the FF and being applauded for it.

Right.

But Hopkins isn’t even doing that in over a decade.

Not coming within a sniff, except for once.

Losing has become acceptable.

Exactly. No one is arguing that Hopkins can't have a down year where they are the last team into the tournament (I'm not willing to lower the standards to below this point though one could easily argue that is where the program is right now. But, that one year should be balanced out with years were the team goes 10-4ish, 9-5. But, there has to be a year of excellence in there. A year where the team is 12-2 and one or two teams that is odds on favorite to win the title or at least make the FF. That isn't happening. Now we are in one good year mixed with 4-5 years of mediocre to sub-average.

In the heyday of the PSU Football program under Paterno. He basically stated that the programs goal was to compete for a national title at some point in the 4 years a players was on the team. He didn't say the team would win one but would be in the conversation. Typically, they weren't far off. While I think lacrosse is still more concentrated with what teams can compete for NCs, I don't think a goal like that is far off. Saying that since 2008. Hopkins has only had 1 year where you could say they would even sniff that goal.

[OCanada]

Dom lost his job as a result of thing other than his record in the field. Not a good comparison. Hopkins team since he arrived has not had the kind of issues that hit his predecessor released. Steel is right imo he won’t be fired. Kids love him. The fraternity has big respect for him. Now that the twins are finally finishing HS he isn’t anchored here.

The most comparable is probably Richie Meade spear headed by a bunch of Alums who thought Navy could return to the glory days of the early 60s.